Where does Karl Malone rank all-time?

[canada_dry]

Playoff choker despite the snazzy numbers. Short of that, it would be an upper echelon career.

Top 25 is fine. Still great.

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[One_and_Done]

It depends on the year we're talking about. In 02 and 03 D.Rob was a role player. In 01 he was a faux all-star who was a role player in the playoffs.

The first four years Duncan played with David Robinson DRob was one of the best Cs in the league. Period. Karl Malone never played with a player of that caliber. In 2000-01 DRob was still one of the very best Cs in the league. What are you missing?

Kawhi wasn't an all-star type guy till what, 2015? 2016?

Leonard was a stud defender from day one. He was also very efficient on offense, a good rebounder for a SF, with a high steal rate his first 5 years in the league. Just because you belittle his performance does not negate that.

Please stop with the Jeff Malone slander. He was a borderline all-star sure, and worse than Horny, but to call him a "net negative" is dumb.

I suppose Jeff Malone was better than a young Kawhi Leonard because he scored more and was an all-star, huh?

Learn how to evaluate player defense. Learn how players that do the little extra things - grab offensive rebounds, get steals, block shots, draw offensive fouls - help their teams win games moreso than players that do not do these little things.

In his career Jeff Malone was an average shooter for a SG that was a poor defender and that did none of the little extra things players do to win games. He averaged 2282 minutes/season and only 44 offensive rebounds, 44 steals, and 8 blocked shots a season. Those are pathetically low/bad for a SG.

Yeh we disagree. D.Rob had fallen off a little even by 99, though he was still an all-nba big. I had a whole thread about the 99 Spurs recently breaking down one of the finals games play by play. To say he was "one of the best centers" is meaningless, the 5 position was at it's nadir with Shaa at the top and often very little after that. The more accurate characterisation is based on how they were rated relative to the league. Stockton was usually a top 15-ish player, and after 99 I don't think D.Rob was. He 100% wasn't after 00, he was degrading before our eyes over the 01 season. By the playoffs he was a role player.

Was the Kawhi that played with Duncan a top 15 player like Stockton? Maybe for the last few years. In 2014 Kawhi was really valuable, much more than Jeff Malone (different sorts of players of course), but he wasn't top 15, which is what matters because he was the Spurs 2nd best player in 2014 after Duncan. He's being compared to Stockton, not Jeff Malone.

Jeff Malone can be worse than Kawhi and still be a good player btw. The 2 years he made all-star he was the best player on 2 Bullet playoff teams. Yeh, they were 500. ball playoff teams, but Malone is a good 3rd wheel not a Batman. Given that I'd say it's pretty good evidence he could have a good impact on a team.

[iggymcfrack]

Surprisingly accurate takes on the Mailman. I'd think his personal life and his lack of rings would cause him to be underrated. List is a bell curve around the correct answer though. Personally I'd have him #18.

[Luke]

Karl Malone being better than Kobe really shouldn’t be a controversial position. Here are their stats to start with:

Kobe from 00-10: 36.9pp100, 7.6rp100, 6.9ap100, 558 TS%, 113 Ortg

Malone from 89-00: 36.9pp100, 14.4rp100, 4.9ap100, 592 TS%, 116 Ortg

It looks to me like Malone was doing much the same as Kobe on offense, just more efficiently, while also providing much more on the defensive end. Malone doesn’t have rings, because rings are a team accomplishment. Malone’s team was never favoured to win the title, because he never had the best supporting cast around him. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was favoured to win the title at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13) and only won 5 times. Kobe won as an overdog, winning the title when he was on the best team who was favoured to win the title, and losing as often as he won when he was favoured. Is there even a single year Kobe’s team won when they should not have?

From 99-07 Kobe’s record in games without Shaq was 135-137. He couldn’t lead a mediocre team to save his life, but Malone could. Yeh, Stockton was a nice player, but he wasn’t Shaq. Stockton was a fringe all-nba guy.

If you want someone famous, you take Kobe. If you want someone who was more impactful at winning basketball games, you take Karl Malone.

Are you real ?

LOL at Malone impacting wins more with ZERO rings vs five ( now I'm ready to listen that Kobe was a role player during his wins )

LOl at a guy with 12 All Defensive selections ( 9 FIRST TEAM , best in hystory with 3 others ) vs 4 ( 3 first ) being worse on defense.

LOL at Kobe doing less with more when Karl Malone played with the most prolific assist man in hystory ( Stockton) , and Kobe was able to carry Smush Parker to the playoffs

The truth hurts I guess. Mailman waa just more impactful.

PS - you lose credibility when you cite Kobe's widely mocked defensive team selections.

You must be a troll, no way you are real

Truth hurts ? A five time champion has less impact in winning than a perennial loser who is good only as a stat padder ? You have an inferiority complex regarding Kobe or you have an agenda vs a particular player ?

The widely mocked all defensive selection were decided by the Coaches , who are way better then journalists to make those choices, because they had to study games, tendencies and everything about players. They all recognized Kobe as an historic great defender. The only thing you can really have vs him is that late in his career he coasted a little, but he picked up the right moments to be impactful, just similar to guys like Duncan, Lebron and Kawhi did all the time in their career. 12 times all defensive selections, 9 First team, best ever in this department, along with 3 others.

Please stop , if you are not forced to do what you do...

[One_and_Done]

Coaches are no less biased than the players, and anyway there have been coaches and GMs who have admitted when they got their voting ballots for awards/surveys they have just fobbed it off to junior staffers to fill it in.

Kobe has 5 rings, so by the RINGZZ crowd's logic he must be half as good as Sam Jones who has 10, and 5/8ths as good as Heinsohn.

[One_and_Done]

Surprisingly accurate takes on the Mailman. I'd think his personal life and his lack of rings would cause him to be underrated. List is a bell curve around the correct answer though. Personally I'd have him #18.

18 feels a tad low.

[ropjhk]

Top 5 PF. Top 3 in many peoples eyes.

Top 20 overall sounds about right. I'm not completely upset if someone ranks him top 15 but not top 10.

[One_and_Done]

Top 5 PF. Top 3 in many peoples eyes.

Top 20 overall sounds about right. I'm not completely upset if someone ranks him top 15 but not top 10.

If he's top 15 it's barely.

[bledredwine]

Having a post scorer who could put in twenty back then was big, let alone near thirty like Malone. Top twenty.

[cdubbz]

Growing up in the 90s I was a big Utah Jazz fan and Stockton/Malone fan. I voted top 20, but possibly higher.

Watching the Jazz go to back to back Finals (and losing) while Malone got 2 MVPs in his MID-THIRTIES?! His fadeaway was unstoppable. Karl Malone put the POWER in Power forward. Malone played so many minutes all the way until his retirement and was productive until 40 years old. Man was a beast.

[SkyHook]

I’m a Jazz fan who has long advocated for the KM statue to be torn down. I’ve got no problem with the statutory rape being brought up every time one of these all time great threads happen. Just do it every time for every player who has been a dirtbag though: Kobe, Bird, Dr. J, KJ, etc.

As for his play on the court I have him around 20, plus or minus.

[One_and_Done]

I’m a Jazz fan who has long advocated for the KM statue to be torn down. I’ve got no problem with the statutory rape being brought up every time one of these all time great threads happen. Just do it every time for every player who has been a dirtbag though: Kobe, Bird, Dr. J, KJ, etc.

As for his play on the court I have him around 20, plus or minus.

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

[SkyHook]

I’m a Jazz fan who has long advocated for the KM statue to be torn down. I’ve got no problem with the statutory rape being brought up every time one of these all time great threads happen. Just do it every time for every player who has been a dirtbag though: Kobe, Bird, Dr. J, KJ, etc.

As for his play on the court I have him around 20, plus or minus.

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

I’ll mention whoever I want, thanks.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/05/04/paternity-ward-fathering-out-of-wedlock-kids-has-become-commonplace-among-athletes-many-of-whom-seem-oblivious-to-the-legal-financial-and-emotional-consequences

[One_and_Done]

I’m a Jazz fan who has long advocated for the KM statue to be torn down. I’ve got no problem with the statutory rape being brought up every time one of these all time great threads happen. Just do it every time for every player who has been a dirtbag though: Kobe, Bird, Dr. J, KJ, etc.

As for his play on the court I have him around 20, plus or minus.

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

I’ll mention whoever I want, thanks.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/05/04/paternity-ward-fathering-out-of-wedlock-kids-has-become-commonplace-among-athletes-many-of-whom-seem-oblivious-to-the-legal-financial-and-emotional-consequences

Yeh I'm not seeing the moral equivalence.

[NZB2323]

I’m a Jazz fan who has long advocated for the KM statue to be torn down. I’ve got no problem with the statutory rape being brought up every time one of these all time great threads happen. Just do it every time for every player who has been a dirtbag though: Kobe, Bird, Dr. J, KJ, etc.

As for his play on the court I have him around 20, plus or minus.

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

I’ll mention whoever I want, thanks.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/05/04/paternity-ward-fathering-out-of-wedlock-kids-has-become-commonplace-among-athletes-many-of-whom-seem-oblivious-to-the-legal-financial-and-emotional-consequences

Are you talking about when Bird got divorced from his 1st wife at 19 and found out she was pregnant afterwards?

Bird has been married to his 2nd wife for 34 years and they have 2 adopted children.

[SkyHook]

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

I’ll mention whoever I want, thanks.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/05/04/paternity-ward-fathering-out-of-wedlock-kids-has-become-commonplace-among-athletes-many-of-whom-seem-oblivious-to-the-legal-financial-and-emotional-consequences

Are you talking about when Bird got divorced from his 1st wife at 19 and found out she was pregnant afterwards?

Bird has been married to his 2nd wife for 34 years and they have 2 adopted children.

And shunned his biological child for two decades. He was a dirtbag long after his playing career ended and at least well into his coaching career.

[SkyHook]

You really shouldn't be mentioning Bird next to Malone, KJ and Kobe. Dunno what Dr J supposedly did to be listed here either.

I’ll mention whoever I want, thanks.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/05/04/paternity-ward-fathering-out-of-wedlock-kids-has-become-commonplace-among-athletes-many-of-whom-seem-oblivious-to-the-legal-financial-and-emotional-consequences

Yeh I'm not seeing the moral equivalence.

Think what you want.

[iggymcfrack]

Are you real ?

LOL at Malone impacting wins more with ZERO rings vs five ( now I'm ready to listen that Kobe was a role player during his wins )

LOl at a guy with 12 All Defensive selections ( 9 FIRST TEAM , best in hystory with 3 others ) vs 4 ( 3 first ) being worse on defense.

LOL at Kobe doing less with more when Karl Malone played with the most prolific assist man in hystory ( Stockton) , and Kobe was able to carry Smush Parker to the playoffs

The truth hurts I guess. Mailman waa just more impactful.

PS - you lose credibility when you cite Kobe's widely mocked defensive team selections.

You must be a troll, no way you are real

Truth hurts ? A five time champion has less impact in winning than a perennial loser who is good only as a stat padder ? You have an inferiority complex regarding Kobe or you have an agenda vs a particular player ?

The widely mocked all defensive selection were decided by the Coaches , who are way better then journalists to make those choices, because they had to study games, tendencies and everything about players. They all recognized Kobe as an historic great defender. The only thing you can really have vs him is that late in his career he coasted a little, but he picked up the right moments to be impactful, just similar to guys like Duncan, Lebron and Kawhi did all the time in their career. 12 times all defensive selections, 9 First team, best ever in this department, along with 3 others.

Please stop , if you are not forced to do what you do...

Obviously the coaches didn't put much effort into picking the all-defensive teams since they voted Kobe first team all-defense in 2006 when he was the worst defender on his own team and the announcers who were trying to defend him constantly brought up that "he just couldn't afford to try on defense because he needed to save all his energy for offense". Those awards mean less than nothing. It's like if I tell you a dog got elected mayor. OK, great, that's a vote that happened, but it doesn't actually reflect on the dog's political acumen.

Objective impact stats will tell you that Kobe was an above average defender at best, but most seasons was a net negative defensively due to lack of effort. Career RAPM had him in the bottom 10% of all players even when adjusting for age. I know you'll be like "OMG, numbers!!! The horror!!! Numbers are for stupid brainy math heads!!!" But what those numbers are saying is that over the course of 20 years playing with all sorts of different players on all sorts of different teams, the Lakers defense was consistently worse whenever Kobe was on the floor. That's a massive sample of 50K plus minutes so you don't have to worry about sample issues. And while some of his worst defense was in his decline years, it's also adjusting for what players did at similar ages. Plus the games he played after the Achilles injury amounted to <7% of his career total so they wouldn't be weighted heavily.

[Luke]

The truth hurts I guess. Mailman waa just more impactful.

PS - you lose credibility when you cite Kobe's widely mocked defensive team selections.

You must be a troll, no way you are real

Truth hurts ? A five time champion has less impact in winning than a perennial loser who is good only as a stat padder ? You have an inferiority complex regarding Kobe or you have an agenda vs a particular player ?

The widely mocked all defensive selection were decided by the Coaches , who are way better then journalists to make those choices, because they had to study games, tendencies and everything about players. They all recognized Kobe as an historic great defender. The only thing you can really have vs him is that late in his career he coasted a little, but he picked up the right moments to be impactful, just similar to guys like Duncan, Lebron and Kawhi did all the time in their career. 12 times all defensive selections, 9 First team, best ever in this department, along with 3 others.

Please stop , if you are not forced to do what you do...

Obviously the coaches didn't put much effort into picking the all-defensive teams since they voted Kobe first team all-defense in 2006 when he was the worst defender on his own team and the announcers who were trying to defend him constantly brought up that "he just couldn't afford to try on defense because he needed to save all his energy for offense". Those awards mean less than nothing. It's like if I tell you a dog got elected mayor. OK, great, that's a vote that happened, but it doesn't actually reflect on the dog's political acumen.

Objective impact stats will tell you that Kobe was an above average defender at best, but most seasons was a net negative defensively due to lack of effort. Career RAPM had him in the bottom 10% of all players even when adjusting for age. I know you'll be like "OMG, numbers!!! The horror!!! Numbers are for stupid brainy math heads!!!" But what those numbers are saying is that over the course of 20 years playing with all sorts of different players on all sorts of different teams, the Lakers defense was consistently worse whenever Kobe was on the floor. That's a massive sample of 50K plus minutes so you don't have to worry about sample issues. And while some of his worst defense was in his decline years, it's also adjusting for what players did at similar ages. Plus the games he played after the Achilles injury amounted to <7% of his career total so they wouldn't be weighted heavily.

How many times did you watch Kobe play ?

Because you don't know what you are talking about.

ZERO knowledge of Kobe's game, who was called to the Redeem Team just as a defensive specialist, to set the defensive tone of the team. ( and then dominated the offense too in the Final , just to avoid another embarassment for Team USA ).

2006 , Kobe did the most incredible thing in the hystory of the game, carrying a G-legue team to the playoffs and almost upset of the Suns, in the West. They robbed him of MVP and you are nitpicking on stats ? Lies, Big lies and Stats, or Embiid would be near GOAT Status

[sodmoraes]

Rank is just a number

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