Have we been underrating Luka?

[G35]

* 73-point game

* 60/20 triple double

* 5 straight 1st-team All-NBA selections by age 25 (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have 5 career 27/8/8 seasons (Oscar) (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have a 32/8/8 season (Jordan)

* On pace to be the first player in NBA history to have a 33/9/9 season

* On pace for the most (PPG + RPG + APG) in a season since ABA merger in 1976
..........he's slightly above Russ' MVP season mark

* 9th in career regular season triple doubles (1 behind Harden, who is 9 years older)

* Led his team to the WCF at age 23 by beating a 64-win PHX team

* EuroLeague champion

* EuroLeague MVP


Is Luka getting enough flowers for what he's accomplished so far in his career?

What you do in the RS vs below average teams doesn't mean a whole lot, it can indicate you have ability and talent but nothing else.

Putting up those same type of numbers in the PS, vs above average competition (and beyond...each round gets harder) is what you are truly graded on.....

[jpengland]

* 73-point game

* 60/20 triple double

* 5 straight 1st-team All-NBA selections by age 25 (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have 5 career 27/8/8 seasons (Oscar) (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have a 32/8/8 season (Jordan)

* On pace to be the first player in NBA history to have a 33/9/9 season

* On pace for the most (PPG + RPG + APG) in a season since ABA merger in 1976
..........he's slightly above Russ' MVP season mark

* 9th in career regular season triple doubles (1 behind Harden, who is 9 years older)

* Led his team to the WCF at age 23 by beating a 64-win PHX team

* EuroLeague champion

* EuroLeague MVP


Is Luka getting enough flowers for what he's accomplished so far in his career?

What you do in the RS vs below average teams doesn't mean a whole lot, it can indicate you have ability and talent but nothing else.

Putting up those same type of numbers in the PS, vs above average competition (and beyond...each round gets harder) is what you are truly graded on.....

His PPG in the playoffs is second all time.

He's a great playoff performer already. Even this early in his career.

[losmi]

Did you read what I wrote?

You stated Luka has "way below average efficiency". I just asked if you were serious, because that statement is patently false.

I'll put it in another way.

In terms of scoring, Luka = Jokic + another player who averages 7ppg on 50 TS%.

How and when did you replace "7.3 more points on 5.6 more shots" with "Luka scores 7 more points on 7 more shots"? Does not get there by just simple rounding... That's not 50TS%.

I rounded the numbers to simplify for one poster who I thought didn't understand what I wrote, but now I realize he's just trolling so I won't engage anymore with them.

It's +7.3 ppg on +5.6 FGA and +3.1 FTA, which I believe would be somewhere around 51 TS%.

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

I rounded the numbers to simplify for one poster who I thought didn't understand what I wrote, but now I realize he's just trolling so I won't engage anymore with them.

I wasn't trolling (or even getting into your previous argument). I just pointed to a blatant lie you stated, and asked if you were serious with that statement.

I don't like when people make stuff up on boards, because it leads to self perpetuating false narratives.

Your refusal to even acknowledge that speaks volumes as to your true intentions. Most people would have simply said, my bad, I exaggerated.

[dygaction]

I'll put it in another way.

In terms of scoring, Luka = Jokic + another player who averages 7ppg on 50 TS%.

How and when did you replace "7.3 more points on 5.6 more shots" with "Luka scores 7 more points on 7 more shots"? Does not get there by just simple rounding... That's not 50TS%.

I rounded the numbers to simplify for one poster who I thought didn't understand what I wrote, but now I realize he's just trolling so I won't engage anymore with them.

It's +7.3 ppg on +5.6 FGA and +3.1 FTA, which I believe would be somewhere around 51 TS%.

It is not rounding... You are creating a false narrative with intentionally modified numbers but calling others trolling...

[G35]

* 73-point game

* 60/20 triple double

* 5 straight 1st-team All-NBA selections by age 25 (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have 5 career 27/8/8 seasons (Oscar) (counting this year)

* Only 2nd player in NBA history to have a 32/8/8 season (Jordan)

* On pace to be the first player in NBA history to have a 33/9/9 season

* On pace for the most (PPG + RPG + APG) in a season since ABA merger in 1976
..........he's slightly above Russ' MVP season mark

* 9th in career regular season triple doubles (1 behind Harden, who is 9 years older)

* Led his team to the WCF at age 23 by beating a 64-win PHX team

* EuroLeague champion

* EuroLeague MVP


Is Luka getting enough flowers for what he's accomplished so far in his career?

What you do in the RS vs below average teams doesn't mean a whole lot, it can indicate you have ability and talent but nothing else.

Putting up those same type of numbers in the PS, vs above average competition (and beyond...each round gets harder) is what you are truly graded on.....

His PPG in the playoffs is second all time.

He's a great playoff performer already. Even this early in his career.

Michael Jordan was an ATG playoff performer after his first three seasons. He had a 63 pt game against the Boston Celtics and Larry Bird. In his 2nd season, he averaged 43.7PPG for the series. In his 3rd year he averaged 35.7 PPG. And the rebounds, steals, and assists were great as well.

His playoff record after three seasons was 1-9 and no one thought he was an ATG because of some nice stats...winning is what makes a difference in the playoffs.

You cannot get around the winning component of greatness...call it whatever shaming language you want to but no one cares about who came in 2nd......

[losmi]

No, seeding is not an argument against Luka. The argument is that Jokic has had statistically better season and 8 wins more. There's actually no argument for Luka over Jokic other than some made up nonsense from social media.

It’s funny how people just choose to ignore 8 points and 1 assist per game difference in favor of the advanced stats. Just because they are so “advanced”.

8 points difference it’s HUGE at the level these two are playing.

Jokic is averaging 26.6 ppg on 18.0 FGA and 5.6 FTA.

Luka is averaging 33.9 ppg on 23.6 FGA and 8.7 FTA.

So Luka is producing +7.3 ppg on +5.6 FGA and +3.1 FTA = +7.3 ppg on +7.15 possessions, which would be around 51 TS%.

I don't think those +7.3 ppg added on a way below average efficiency is that "HUGE" of a difference.

This was my original post. Then a troll replied and derailed the thread. I admit of being guilty of taking the bait.

[dygaction]

What you do in the RS vs below average teams doesn't mean a whole lot, it can indicate you have ability and talent but nothing else.

Putting up those same type of numbers in the PS, vs above average competition (and beyond...each round gets harder) is what you are truly graded on.....

His PPG in the playoffs is second all time.

He's a great playoff performer already. Even this early in his career.

Michael Jordan was an ATG playoff performer after his first three seasons. He had a 63 pt game against the Boston Celtics and Larry Bird. In his 2nd season, he averaged 43.7PPG for the series. In his 3rd year he averaged 35.7 PPG. And the rebounds, steals, and assists were great as well.

His playoff record after three seasons was 1-9 and no one thought he was an ATG because of some nice stats...winning is what makes a difference in the playoffs.

You cannot get around the winning component of greatness...call it whatever shaming language you want to but no one cares about who came in 2nd......

Not sure if that's true based on my memory. Jordan was considered GOAT coming before he won. Basketball is also heavily luck dependent, draft, management, injury to player and teammates... Think about what if Magic was drafted by Cleveland instead of Lakers falling on KAJ's lap? Even if he were able to bring Clevland's first championship, he would be nowhere close to #1 PG of all time.

[HotRocks34]

His PPG in the playoffs is second all time.

He's a great playoff performer already. Even this early in his career.

Luka's PPG, PER and BPM have all tended to be better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

.

A player can achieve greatness without a title. Karl Malone, Barkley, etc. But of course a ring solidifies the reputation. For Jerry West that came in Year 12 and age 33. We'll see how things work out for 25 year old Luka.

Jordan was great before he won rings. People still put him down some but the ability was undeniable.

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

I don't think those +7.3 ppg added on a way below average efficiency is that "HUGE" of a difference.

This was my original post. Then a troll replied and derailed the thread. I admit of being guilty of taking the bait.

Why don't you just admit you were wrong, instead of reposting that bolded lie?

It is kind of your main point in that argument, no? Kinda important...

Just to prove I'm not trolling, please back up those efficiency numbers, so we can all understand you better.

[losmi]

I don't think those +7.3 ppg added on a way below average efficiency is that "HUGE" of a difference.

This was my original post. Then a troll replied and derailed the thread. I admit of being guilty of taking the bait.

Why don't you just admit you were wrong, instead of reposting that bolded lie?

It is kind of your main point in that argument, no? Kinda important...

Just to prove I'm not trolling, please back up those efficiency numbers, so we can all understand you better.

I gave you a calculation that Luka takes around 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points more.

I didn't say that Luka isn't efficient overall, just that the difference in 7.3 points he scores more than Jokic is less impressive when you take into account that he takes 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points.

[Johnny Firpo]

His playoff record after three seasons was 1-9 and no one thought he was an ATG because of some nice stats...

I get what you are trying to say, but that's just not true. People were talking about Jordan being the best player ever before he won his first championship. Bird called him the greatest ever in 1988.

[G35]

His playoff record after three seasons was 1-9 and no one thought he was an ATG because of some nice stats...

I get what you are trying to say, but that's just not true. People were talking about Jordan being the best player ever before he won his first championship. Bird called him the greatest ever in 1988.

You know what I have learned about history...those in the present try to rewrite the past in order to control the future.

I have been looking back at a lot of historical events and wondering how is the narrator or producer trying to frame the situation.

There have been many great conquerors, leaders, generals, winners but not everyone is remembered or remembered well. The stories are what keep memories alive and stories can be rewritten.....

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

I gave you a calculation that Luka takes around 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points more.

I didn't say that Luka isn't efficient overall, just that the difference in 7.3 points he scores more than Jokic is less impressive when you take into account that he takes 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points.

That difference is mostly due to the difficulty of shots he takes. Almost half (45%) of his FG attempts are 3 pointers, most of them unassisted. Over 500 more than Jokic this season. Logically, you need more possessions to score if you mostly shoot lower percentage shots. That is why centers typically have better efficiency. Maybe you can argue about shot selection, but efficiency is a moot point.

Now, would I prefer anybody else take those shots on the Mavs? Hell no. I wouldn't even prefer Nikola take them, cause he is less efficient at 3 pointers than Doncic.

7.3 points is a lot. The 48th leading scorer in the NBA, Jalen Williams, is as close to Jokic as Jokic is to Doncic in scoring, to put it in perspective. That's a massive difference.

And maybe it's a language thing, but you did say he wasn't efficient ("way below average"). But I will give it a rest with that now.

[BeiBeau]

This was my original post. Then a troll replied and derailed the thread. I admit of being guilty of taking the bait.

Why don't you just admit you were wrong, instead of reposting that bolded lie?

It is kind of your main point in that argument, no? Kinda important...

Just to prove I'm not trolling, please back up those efficiency numbers, so we can all understand you better.

I gave you a calculation that Luka takes around 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points more.

I didn't say that Luka isn't efficient overall, just that the difference in 7.3 points he scores more than Jokic is less impressive when you take into account that he takes 7.15 possessions more to score those 7.3 points.

Good thing Jokic kept his efficiency super high tonight. We all know that’s what’s most important. His team definitely didn’t need more volume out of him as he got out played by Wembanyama.

[QPR]

You know your argument isn't strong when you try to use one game samples

[BeiBeau]

You know your argument isn't strong when you try to use one game samples

You know you don’t have a counter point if the only thing you can do is cry sample size.

And I’m more just highlighting the flaws of people who view efficiency as everything with tonight as an example. Volume matters just as much in many situations. If Jokic is the best player in the world then he should’ve taken over tonight to keep the 1 seed. Keeping his field goal percentage high certainly looks good when people are checking stats at the end of the season, but in a game like tonight only taking 13 shots is unacceptable.

[QPR]

You know your argument isn't strong when you try to use one game samples

You know you don’t have a counter point if the only thing you can do is cry sample size.

And I’m more just highlighting the flaws of people who view efficiency as everything with tonight as an example. Volume matters just as much in many situations. If Jokic is the best player in the world then he should’ve taken over tonight to keep the 1 seed. Keeping his field goal percentage high certainly looks good when people are checking stats at the end of the season, but in a game like tonight only taking 13 shots is unacceptable.

There is an enormous sample size that suggests Jokic is one of the most efficient players ever, possibly the most efficient. There is also a fairly large sample size that suggests he's one of the most clutch ever, particularly in playoff situations. Taking any conclusions from a single game is not all that compelling, whether they are for or against Jokic.

He's dominated Wemby twice in the last month, and he didn't tonight. He certainly won't be the only player Wemby gets the better of throughout the next few years.

A few Mavs fans have really had their brains broken by this MVP race, which tbh isn't really a race by this point.

[Bob8]

You know your argument isn't strong when you try to use one game samples

You know you don’t have a counter point if the only thing you can do is cry sample size.

And I’m more just highlighting the flaws of people who view efficiency as everything with tonight as an example. Volume matters just as much in many situations. If Jokic is the best player in the world then he should’ve taken over tonight to keep the 1 seed. Keeping his field goal percentage high certainly looks good when people are checking stats at the end of the season, but in a game like tonight only taking 13 shots is unacceptable.

There is an enormous sample size that suggests Jokic is one of the most efficient players ever, possibly the most efficient. There is also a fairly large sample size that suggests he's one of the most clutch ever, particularly in playoff situations. Taking any conclusions from a single game is not all that compelling, whether they are for or against Jokic.

He's dominated Wemby twice in the last month, and he didn't tonight. He certainly won't be the only player Wemby gets the better of throughout the next few years.

A few Mavs fans have really had their brains broken by this MVP race, which tbh isn't really a race by this point.

Jokic's efficiency, which should not be that surprising considering he's still a C, has one downside, he can't score like superstar guards can, if needed. If his teammates are off, he can't take their scoring burden as effectively as some other superstars in the past and in the present can. That doesn't play big role in 82 games RS, but in playoffs might.

[QPR]

Last playoffs Jokic had games of 53, 43, 41 and 39. In the 2022 GS series without Murray or MPJ he averaged 32. In 2021 against Portland he had games of 34, 38, 36, 38 and 36. He had 43 in his first ever playoff series against the Spurs.

I think there's enough evidence to suggest Jokic can score big when he needs to in the playoffs (or at any time).