The amount of talent in the league today is absurd

[The Corey's]

You are allowed to have your opinion, no matter how inaccurate that opinion may be. The opinion isn't the issue here. The issue is the "if points are up, defense is down" claim.

That claim is absolutely nonsensical. It presupposes that the quality of offense and quality of defense are on some sort of equilibrium where an increase in the former is going to bring about a corresponding decrease in the latter and vice versa.

And that just isn't how any of it works.

I can't walk every one of you through this. So let this serve as the end of it.

https://fadeawayworld.net/paul-george-explains-why-defense-is-bad-in-todays-nba

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2024/03/04/nba-binge-scoring-not-good-for-game-opinion/

https://www.studlife.com/sports/2024/01/16/the-nbas-defense-problem-is-too-big-to-ignore-how-can-it-be-fixed

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/03/nba-offensive-revolution-scoring-defense


My take is not isolated to me and shared by NBA players alike.

It's a struggle to get these players to play 82 games a year and you're all out here trying to convince me that they're giving they're defensive best. I don't think so.

If you re-read the two posts I've directed at you, you'll see that I didn't try to debate your point about whether defense in today's NBA is good or not. As I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinion. I'm not here to debate that opinion.

The reason why I replied to your posts in the first place was to address the "If points are up, defense is down" claim. This claim right here:

If points are up, defense is down. That's how it works.

Do you still stand by this claim?

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

[Nuntius]

I can't walk every one of you through this. So let this serve as the end of it.

https://fadeawayworld.net/paul-george-explains-why-defense-is-bad-in-todays-nba

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2024/03/04/nba-binge-scoring-not-good-for-game-opinion/

https://www.studlife.com/sports/2024/01/16/the-nbas-defense-problem-is-too-big-to-ignore-how-can-it-be-fixed

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/03/nba-offensive-revolution-scoring-defense


My take is not isolated to me and shared by NBA players alike.

It's a struggle to get these players to play 82 games a year and you're all out here trying to convince me that they're giving they're defensive best. I don't think so.

If you re-read the two posts I've directed at you, you'll see that I didn't try to debate your point about whether defense in today's NBA is good or not. As I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinion. I'm not here to debate that opinion.

The reason why I replied to your posts in the first place was to address the "If points are up, defense is down" claim. This claim right here:

If points are up, defense is down. That's how it works.

Do you still stand by this claim?

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

First of all, I believe that you misinterpreted what these other posters were saying to you. They weren't saying that today's defense is the best that it has ever been in the NBA. They were saying that the defense played by team's today is much harder to execute than the defensive schemes of the past.

The poster named One_and_Done, in particular, made that particular claim several times and you kept interpreting "harder to execute" as "better". But that is simply not the case.

Harder to execute does NOT equal better. There isn't a necessary correlation between difficulty and quality.

Just like there isn't a necessary correlation between offensive quality and defensive quality. And that brings me back to your claim. What is your evidence that an increase in offensive quality inevitably leads to a decrease in defensive quality? What is the rationale behind particular claim? Why are you making this particular argument?

Believing that today's defense is bad is one thing. It's your opinion and even though I wouldn't really agree with it, you have the right to have whatever opinion you want. But that claim that "if points are up, defense is down" like we're talking about two kids on a seesaw makes no freaking sense at all.

[ghillphx]

There's so much talent we need an expansion

Word

[The Corey's]

If you re-read the two posts I've directed at you, you'll see that I didn't try to debate your point about whether defense in today's NBA is good or not. As I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinion. I'm not here to debate that opinion.

The reason why I replied to your posts in the first place was to address the "If points are up, defense is down" claim. This claim right here:



Do you still stand by this claim?

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

Just like there isn't a necessary correlation between offensive quality and defensive quality. And that brings me back to your claim. What is your evidence that an increase in offensive quality inevitably leads to a decrease in defensive quality? What is the rationale behind particular claim? Why are you making this particular argument?

My evidence that defense is down IS that offense is at a all time high.

What evidence do you have that defense and offense can be at a all time efficiency at the same time? Enlighten me. How is the defense in today's game up to par while simultaneously ceding more baskets than ever before. Is the goal still NOT to allow the ball in the hoop or are we scoring games differently now?

[Nuntius]

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

Just like there isn't a necessary correlation between offensive quality and defensive quality. And that brings me back to your claim. What is your evidence that an increase in offensive quality inevitably leads to a decrease in defensive quality? What is the rationale behind particular claim? Why are you making this particular argument?

What evidence do you have that defense and offense can be at a all time efficiency at the same time? Enlighten me. How is the defense in today's game up to par while simultaneously ceding more baskets than ever before. Is the goal still NOT to allow the ball in the hoop or are we scoring games differently now?

I never made the claim that both defense and offense are at an all time high so I have no idea why you're asking me this question.

My evidence that defense is down IS that offense is at a all time high.

That isn't actual evidence, though. For that to be actual evidence, you would have to prove that the two variables in question (offensive quality and defensive quality) have a statistically dependent relationship. You would to have to prove that when variable A (offensive quality) rises then variable B (defensive quality) plummets. You have not done that as well.

What you chose to do instead was take your original claim ("If points are up, defense is down"), phrase it in a slightly different way and try to pass it off as evidence. That's just circular reasoning.

[DCasey91]

Correlation (and that assumption stated offence vs defence is wrong btw but I digress) does not imply causation. It’s basically one of the first things you have to learn to critically think. It’s a fallacy and by virtue does not hold up in discussion.


Either that or he’s just a troll

[The Corey's]

Just like there isn't a necessary correlation between offensive quality and defensive quality. And that brings me back to your claim. What is your evidence that an increase in offensive quality inevitably leads to a decrease in defensive quality? What is the rationale behind particular claim? Why are you making this particular argument?

What evidence do you have that defense and offense can be at a all time efficiency at the same time? Enlighten me. How is the defense in today's game up to par while simultaneously ceding more baskets than ever before. Is the goal still NOT to allow the ball in the hoop or are we scoring games differently now?

I never made the claim that both defense and offense are at an all time high so I have no idea why you're asking me this question.

My evidence that defense is down IS that offense is at a all time high.

That isn't actual evidence, though. For that to be actual evidence, you would have to prove that the two variables in question (offensive quality and defensive quality) have a statistically dependent relationship. You would to have to prove that when variable A (offensive quality) rises then variable B (defensive quality) plummets. You have not done that as well.

What you chose to do instead was take your original claim ("If points are up, defense is down"), phrase it in a slightly different way and try to pass it off as evidence. That's just circular reasoning.

So what is your point and what is your question. It seems your only point is you disagree with me that the NBA defense is bad. I provided you 4 articles, two of which have Paul George and Steve Kerr agreeing that the NBA defense is in rough shape. (It is). You disagree with it. Ok cool. I can't help you there.

So now you don't disagree with the idea that the NBA can't both have great offense and great defense league wide simultaneously. Wonderful. I never said every player and every team at all times were horrendous at defense either.

How can points be up WITHOUT defense being down? How else do you score points if not because your defense is giving them up? You can't answer that question it seems, only that you don't know if that can be true.

Well great. You have no answers for anything.

[dhsilv2]

Where on earth did you catch me saying that free throws were at a all time high?

https://theathletic.com/5357318/2024/03/22/nba-scoring-decline-numbers-points/


I don't know what debate you're having in your head but it isn't with me. I said scoring was at a all time high and have come down since the all star break because the NBA has made a conscious effort to stop calling fouls.

Why did they do that? Because scoring was getting out of hand and believe it or not, that has something to do with defense.

This was your exact quote.

More scoring and more fouls (the NBA is literally making a concentrated effort to stop calling fouls because it got out of control) doesn't = good defense.

The league has been calling less fouls for years. The changes that have happened since the allstar break are taking already historically low foul calls and lowering them even more! In short...the NBA has had to accept that offenses are so good that they have to allow non basketball contact to help slightly lower scoring.

This is going against your argument in every possible way as good defense requires you to not foul offensive players. Your article is point out that offense has gotten so good (which to the OP, is proof that the league has never had more talent) that the league is now having to ignore fouls to appease dumb fans who can't grasph that scoring isn't a result of poor defense but offense being played at a level we've never seen before.

Fouls were way up in the first half of the year. Never said anything about foul shots.

To ignore why the scoring is up (the rules, 14 shot second shot clock reset, bad defense) is ignore the reality.

Or course this doesn't even take into account that it would take a superstar something short of commiting murder to even catch a foul against them in the first place. It's never been easier to he a star player in the NBA.

Please, show me where fouls were up prior to the allstar game.

The 14 second rule might increase per game score, but we're currently seeing something like the 8th or 9th most points per game in NBA history. We're not even 5 points higher than 1985 when MJ entered the league. These arguments that it's defense are just down right false and something you can't substantiate. Infact given the score is only up about 5 points despite the offensive improvements would once again lead us back to 80's and 90's defenses weren't good. The offenses were just bad.

[dhsilv2]

You're probably the kind of person who thinks hand weights are tougher than yoga because someone is yelling and you can see their muscles bulging while they do weights. In reality yoga is far tougher on your body and more draining.

OK this is just completely false...squat 3x your body weight and get back to me lol.

You can lift 3x your body weight with 2 hand weights? Wow. I didn't realise they made hand weights that big.

Maybe I don't know what you mean by hand weights...but if that's the case. I dont' think anyone cares about them at all.

[dhsilv2]

League Averages:

ORTG: 117 (Highest)
FG% 47.4 3P%:36.6
Pace: 96.6
FGA’s: 88.9 FG:42
3PA’s: 35 3P:12.8
FT: 21.8 FT:17
Rebounds: 40.3
Turnovers: 12.6

There’s a couple of things that stand out straight away. The pace is similar to early 90’s and shot attempts (not the shot diet important distinction)

Here’s the huge differences:

The amount of 3pa’s and makes around 40% of total attempts which will probably bump up to mid 40’s let’s say, less rebounds, less FTA’s but most exciting that hasn’t been discussed yet is turnovers. It’s heading for the lowest of all time.

Today the league is protecting the ball better than ever

Now 2 things with rules:
Handchecking and defensive violation

I’m on the fence with handchecking. With modern advancement players are just better ballhandlers especially off the dribble threats along with multiple screening action. Handchecking or essentially grabbing happens a ton behind the ball.

Now the other one with the defence should be done with. Let every team have a Draymond Green like free safety at all times.

Luka directly points it out how exploitable it really is and it definitely is.

That I think would drastically change the landscape overnight.

Hand checking was banned after 1978. While players did it more in the 90's than now (and they still do it now). It's been illegal since before Bird and Magic.

[dhsilv2]

I can't walk every one of you through this. So let this serve as the end of it.

https://fadeawayworld.net/paul-george-explains-why-defense-is-bad-in-todays-nba

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2024/03/04/nba-binge-scoring-not-good-for-game-opinion/

https://www.studlife.com/sports/2024/01/16/the-nbas-defense-problem-is-too-big-to-ignore-how-can-it-be-fixed

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/03/nba-offensive-revolution-scoring-defense


My take is not isolated to me and shared by NBA players alike.

It's a struggle to get these players to play 82 games a year and you're all out here trying to convince me that they're giving they're defensive best. I don't think so.

If you re-read the two posts I've directed at you, you'll see that I didn't try to debate your point about whether defense in today's NBA is good or not. As I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinion. I'm not here to debate that opinion.

The reason why I replied to your posts in the first place was to address the "If points are up, defense is down" claim. This claim right here:

If points are up, defense is down. That's how it works.

Do you still stand by this claim?

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

If you're going by points per game. This year barely crack the top 10 highest scoring seasons in NBA history. You just keep making these incorrect statements. The strongest driver of increases in scoring is pace which has nothing at all to do with defense.

[The Corey's]

If you re-read the two posts I've directed at you, you'll see that I didn't try to debate your point about whether defense in today's NBA is good or not. As I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinion. I'm not here to debate that opinion.

The reason why I replied to your posts in the first place was to address the "If points are up, defense is down" claim. This claim right here:



Do you still stand by this claim?

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

If you're going by points per game. This year barely crack the top 10 highest scoring seasons in NBA history. You just keep making these incorrect statements. The strongest driver of increases in scoring is pace which has nothing at all to do with defense.

The NBA is .3 points off from highest of all time, which was last year.

The points came way down after the all star break.

Are you done yet?

*Edit

Went back and double checked and say that the NBA had higher ppg back in 59-63

So that's probably where you're getting the numbers you're referring to.

There's a ton of variables on why that may be but I doubt anyone is saying they were playing great defense in 59 and 60.


Either way. Defense isn't up right now.

[dhsilv2]

I believe that if the defense is at the NBA's best ever as no less than 3 users told me it was that it wouldn't make sense and doesn't make sense that the league would also be at its highest points per game avg ever.

It doesn't compute. It can't be both. Because effort on the defensive side isn't the same thing as quality. If the defense is at its all time best then no, the offense wouldn't also be at its all time best.

How can teams be scoring at the highest rate in NBA history while also playing the best defense? Do the results not matter?

If you're going by points per game. This year barely crack the top 10 highest scoring seasons in NBA history. You just keep making these incorrect statements. The strongest driver of increases in scoring is pace which has nothing at all to do with defense.

The NBA is .3 points off from highest of all time, which was last year.

The points came way down after the all star break.

Are you done yet?

*Edit

Went back and double checked and say that the NBA had higher ppg back in 59-63

So that's probably where you're getting the numbers you're referring to.

There's a ton of variables on why that may be but I doubt anyone is saying they were playing great defense in 59 and 60.


Either way. Defense isn't up right now.

The fact you don't know the highest scoring season on record is astonishing. And many would argue hands down the two greatest defenders in NBA history were playing in that era. The difference was pace of course. And yes, a LOT of people have argued adamantly that defense was better back then. Dribbling rules were stricter. The reason the players and coaches of that era have said scoring was so high was BECAUSE defenses were so good. The strategy at the time was to rush up and down the court as fast as possible and to get off a shot as quickly as possible. The idea was that this would allow you to get shots off before the defense was set up in the half court. I'd actually go further and say the defense of the time was pretty good. The offense of the time was terrible. They just took a lot more shots.

An increase in points per game does not need to have any correlation to the quality of defense being played. It certainly can, but it is not self evident and I can prove it pretty easily.

If we were to take your arguments and take them to their logical conclusion (and multiple people have attempted to give you an out here). We could conclude that the Pacers have been lucky and teams play worse defense against them while the Grizzlies have been unlucky and teams play their best defense against them. Now hopefully you can hear how dumb that sounds. That's what your arguments that if scoring (per game) is up, than defense is worse. I hope you can accept that a team like the Pacers is just better at scoring than the Grizzlies.

FYI you mentioned the foul topic. Here are fouls per game (so I didn't even take into account pace so I'm making my results biased AGAINST my claim).

2024 19.4 (this is BEFORE the allstar game)
2010 20.9
2005 22.6
2000 23.3
1995 23.5
1990 23.3
1985 24.9
1980 24.4

[NbaAllDay]

It's one thing to have have an objectively wrong opini9n or at the very least the complete wrong way to analyse what you are concluding.

It's a whole other thing to just refuse to listen and even refuse to attempt to learn anything being put your way.

Derailing threads.

[Gusto1903]

I dont like the talent. People just chuck threes and the foul calling is absurd. All them travels and ballcarries. Thats not talent.
I even see in my local team that plays in the lowest german division, that there are a lot of people who can just chuck threes. Nobody can box out for e rebound or do something in the paint.

Thats not talent in my eyes. Talent for me is Basketball Skill and IQ and that i am seeing less and less of

[Lala870]

Parity = / = an abundance of talent

I highly disagree OP. Bunch of finesse players chucking 3's and teams not allowed to play defense.

People claim athletes are in better shape these days but if prime alonzo or david robinson came into the league today they would run through these "superior athletes" like a wet paper bag

Jump shots and 3's = / = more talent

[NyKnicks1714]

The NBA hasn't expanded in 20 years, by far and away the longest period without expansion. At the same time there's been a huge influx of international talent, and with the G-league you have an even bigger talent pool, particularly on the bench. The league is more talented than it's ever been, and I have no idea how anyone can think otherwise.

[Lala870]

I dont like the talent. People just chuck threes and the foul calling is absurd. All them travels and ballcarries. Thats not talent.
I even see in my local team that plays in the lowest german division, that there are a lot of people who can just chuck threes. Nobody can box out for e rebound or do something in the paint.

Thats not talent in my eyes. Talent for me is Basketball Skill and IQ and that i am seeing less and less of

Even on video games people just sell out to shoot 3's all the time. I play people on 2k games and even arcade basketball games that would rather lose spamming 3's then take it to the rim.

The league is trying hard to turn basketball into a highly non-contact sport.

Its finesse through and through. Curry has been the poster child for this movement.

[DCasey91]

Object of the game is to win. Optimal theory is best practice always has been.

Don’t complain if you don’t “chuck 3’s” and lose.

Both teams get the same shot attempts

One team decides to only shoot outside from 3 once every 8/9 shots

.... once again don’t complain if you lose it’s your own damn fault.

Team sports that have the highest numerical return and have a subset will prefer to go for that

Why should basketball be any different? It shouldn’t.

[Lala870]

Object of the game is to win. Optimal theory is best practice always has been.

Don’t complain if you don’t “chuck 3’s” and lose.

Both teams get the same shot attempts

One team decides to only shoot outside from 3 once every 8/9 shots

.... once again don’t complain if you lose it’s your own damn fault.

Team sports that have the highest numerical return and have a subset will prefer to go for that

Why should basketball be any different? It shouldn’t.

Ok and if you cant put a body on someone to defend 3's or physically wear a team down? League has let GS set moving screens for years and now players saying they didnt want to 'rough" curry up

This clip from Andre Iguodala is everything wrong with the league. Funny how this brand of defense was ok for teams historically like San Antonio, but now because its curry its a problem

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The warriors have ruined the game of basketball in the modern era