What does 6 on 6 basketball do to spacing?

[CobraCommander]

Hand checking would slow down scoring significantly - to score when all the player can do is either block the ball or put the hand in your face is ridiculously easy obviously.

So bring back 1970's rules...

Naw - but don’t compare the players scoring accomplishments giving each similar value.

[SkyHook]

Six-on-six basketball? That takes me back to high school when it was still being played (girls only).

Six-on-six basketball is a largely archaic variant of basketball, usually played by women and girls. It is played with the same rules as regular basketball, with the following exceptions:
•Teams have six players each instead of five; three "forwards" and three "guards".
•Only forwards are allowed to shoot the ball. Forwards must stay in their teams' frontcourt (the side of the court they shoot from) and guards must stay in their team's backcourt. For example, Team A's forwards would be on the left side of the court with Team B's guards on defense. Team B's forwards are on the right side of the court with Team A's guards. Thus, forwards play only offense and guards play only defense.
•In some forms, unlimited dribbling is not allowed. Once in possession of the ball, players may dribble the ball up to two times; at that point, the player must shoot (if a forward) or pass to a teammate. Both forwards and guards may handle the ball.
•There is no three-point line; all field goals are worth two points. (The three-point line would not be added to the collegiate rules until the 1980s, by which point six-on-six was mostly phased out.)

[dhsilv2]

The Spurs in '99 were known more for there defense than offense...because you know...two elite bigs guarding paint?

The knicks were in the top 10 in the early 90s in OReb...then dropped out of the top 10 in the shortened 3pt line season onwards...which brings back my point about OReb not correlated to defense...which your theory states that it does in the 90s.

I think this discussion has run its course...let's leave it here

Until the last few years, offensive rebounding negatively correlated with transition defense. Again stop looking at this through a modern lens! And lets be clear again. Just because you have good or bad transition defense doesn't mean your overall defense is good or bad. If you have exceptionally good offensive rebounders, then you can still get them. It's about the strategy to get the offensive boards. As defenses got better in the 90's, offensive rebounding dropped on average. This was by design from coaching. And that accelerated in the early 00's as scoring reached it's lowest point driven by defensive coaches who had post oriented offenses. With Pop being one of the biggest advocates of it. All of this before all these offensive changes you keep talking about.

I mean, if you can't understand that how good a team was defensively in the 80s/90s was more strongly correlated with how elite your big man defensively and your team defended the post than stopping transition defense...then there's no point conversing further on this.

That hasn't even been discussed. Defense has and will always have strong correlation with the ability to prevent easy baskets in the paint. We haven't argued that point or even discussed it. You've been claiming "traditional big men" were good offense because of offensive rebounding and free throws. Despite that not showing in the data. Meanwhile, I've pointed out that teams that had post driven offenses, not built around the rare elite offensive post player, were generally not at the top of the league. I then expanded by explaining that offensive rebounding focus (AKA, a team built to look for them, not lead by an outlier offensive rebounder such as Rodman or Moses) has a negative impact on defense (through the transition game).

Lets look at Hakeem's rockets with even a good secondary rebounder in Thorp. They were among the worst offensive rebounding teams during their run with Rudy T, infact they were dead last in 95. That's despite having the best (or top 3 depending on where you ranked Robinson and Shaq that year) offensive big man in the league.

You're trying so hard to imply if A then B. VS A shifts the results on B but not in absolutes.

[dhsilv2]

Hand checking would slow down scoring significantly - to score when all the player can do is either block the ball or put the hand in your face is ridiculously easy obviously.

So bring back 1970's rules...

Naw - but don’t compare the players scoring accomplishments giving each similar value.

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

[CobraCommander]

So bring back 1970's rules...

Naw - but don’t compare the players scoring accomplishments giving each similar value.

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

[TheGeneral99]

The league could just increase the shot clock back to 24 seconds on rebounds and increase the 3 second violation to 5 seconds and it would solve most of the issues.

[dhsilv2]

Naw - but don’t compare the players scoring accomplishments giving each similar value.

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

As I said, they still did it. And they still do it today. Come playoff time you'll see hand checking on every play these days too. None the less it was banned after the 78 season and the league in 95 pushed to further remove it with some emphasis changes.

While freedom of movement and the landing zone has further pushed some physicality out. Most of the changes are the result of better shooters spreading the floor more. Better passing, allowing you to punish doubles...and offensive players getting more physical without offensive fouls being called. If even a little guy like Curry did what he does off ball in the 90's he'd get more fouls calls on himself. So while we might see less physicality on ball...the game off ball is physical as hell. Just without guys fighting to get posted up because....post offense just doesn't work as well with zone, and it never would have been that great had teams always had shooters.

BTW the last two images show guys posted up effectively. NBA today would allow defenders go just short of having someone throw a steel chair on the court and hit the offensive guy in the back of the head. You can absolutely put a forearm on an offensive player backing you down.

[CobraCommander]

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

As I said, they still did it. And they still do it today. Come playoff time you'll see hand checking on every play these days too. None the less it was banned after the 78 season and the league in 95 pushed to further remove it with some emphasis changes.

While freedom of movement and the landing zone has further pushed some physicality out. Most of the changes are the result of better shooters spreading the floor more. Better passing, allowing you to punish doubles...and offensive players getting more physical without offensive fouls being called. If even a little guy like Curry did what he does off ball in the 90's he'd get more fouls calls on himself. So while we might see less physicality on ball...the game off ball is physical as hell. Just without guys fighting to get posted up because....post offense just doesn't work as well with zone, and it never would have been that great had teams always had shooters.

BTW the last two images show guys posted up effectively. NBA today would allow defenders go just short of having someone throw a steel chair on the court and hit the offensive guy in the back of the head. You can absolutely put a forearm on an offensive player backing you down.

Naw - there are guys like Giannis and Jokic that don’t get calls unless it’s egregious-

And guys like Luka and Tatum and Embiid that generally can’t get touched -

I think They don’t call the foul against Giannis defender sometimes because no one wants to watch him go to the line for 5 minutes just to miss 1 of 2 FTs… it’s mercy to everyone lol

Jokic is generally hated and Embiid is loved - so weird


Either way I do think they have gone too far in allowing player movement with no touching - look at how many 70 pt games happened recently - it’s got wilts turning over in his grave!

[LockoutSeason]

Handchecking was banned in 1979. It was never legal to handcheck at any point in the 1980s and 1990s. We need to stop with the revisionist history.

[dhsilv2]

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

As I said, they still did it. And they still do it today. Come playoff time you'll see hand checking on every play these days too. None the less it was banned after the 78 season and the league in 95 pushed to further remove it with some emphasis changes.

While freedom of movement and the landing zone has further pushed some physicality out. Most of the changes are the result of better shooters spreading the floor more. Better passing, allowing you to punish doubles...and offensive players getting more physical without offensive fouls being called. If even a little guy like Curry did what he does off ball in the 90's he'd get more fouls calls on himself. So while we might see less physicality on ball...the game off ball is physical as hell. Just without guys fighting to get posted up because....post offense just doesn't work as well with zone, and it never would have been that great had teams always had shooters.

BTW the last two images show guys posted up effectively. NBA today would allow defenders go just short of having someone throw a steel chair on the court and hit the offensive guy in the back of the head. You can absolutely put a forearm on an offensive player backing you down.

Naw - there are guys like Giannis and Jokic that don’t get calls unless it’s egregious-

And guys like Luka and Tatum and Embiid that generally can’t get touched -

I think They don’t call the foul against Giannis defender sometimes because no one wants to watch him go to the line for 5 minutes just to miss 1 of 2 FTs… it’s mercy to everyone lol

Jokic is generally hated and Embiid is loved - so weird


Either way I do think they have gone too far in allowing player movement with no touching - look at how many 70 pt games happened recently - it’s got wilts turning over in his grave!

Jokic posts up a LOT. So as I stated...steel chair rules apply. Embiid, he faces up so feedom of movement. Giannis...that one I can't explain. Some guys just get called different, no different now than ever there.

Should add that luka seems to drive and move his back to the basket a lot too. So again, post up rules. But driving he gets calls. just a mixed bag with him.

[CobraCommander]

Handchecking was banned in 1979. It was never legal to handcheck at any point in the 1980s and 1990s. We need to stop with the revisionist history.

It’s not revisionist history when I can post 10000s of pics of players like MJ being hand checked and hand checking people.

It’s like dhsilv2 stated - it was banned but also allowed in circumstances- but ref discretion allowed it to happen a lot as we can see by the pics

Like traveling - banned but allowed

Palming and carrying - banned but allowed

I have seen people explain that Ja doesn’t travel and get away with it - and at that point I stopped carrying what is banned and just go off of reality of what is happening -

Hand checking was happening in MJs day regardless of the rule and isn’t now for the most part

[dhsilv2]

Handchecking was banned in 1979. It was never legal to handcheck at any point in the 1980s and 1990s. We need to stop with the revisionist history.

It’s not revisionist history when I can post 10000s of pics of players like MJ being hand checked and hand checking people.

It’s like dhsilv2 stated - it was banned but also allowed in circumstances- but ref discretion allowed it to happen a lot as we can see by the pics

Like traveling - banned but allowed

Palming and carrying - banned but allowed

I have seen people explain that Ja doesn’t travel and get away with it - and at that point I stopped carrying what is banned and just go off of reality of what is happening -

Hand checking was happening in MJs day regardless of the rule and isn’t now for the most part

It was, but people are being revisionist to claim it was as impactful and wide spread as people are making it out to be.

Even in these picture two things come to mind. First, only one of these is obvious hand checking (looks like Stockton is actually committing an offensive foul though weird angle to judge). The second is most of these look to be shots from the playoffs. The playoffs are key because we see hand checking all through today's nba playoffs too.

In general, there wasn't much contact or physicality in the regular season in any era. You had some teams who seemingly hated eachother in the past, and those games could get physical. So yeah...the game was more physical in the playoffs in the 90's. But people need to calm down on the levels here. There were series back then (any series with the nuggets for example in the 80's or Chuck's suns in the 90's) where there was nearly ZERO physicality. just like today. And there were physical teams and games as we all know...just like today (did you see Boston vs the Warriors a few years back? Hand checking all over that series).

[TheGeneral99]

Naw - but don’t compare the players scoring accomplishments giving each similar value.

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

If you are going to use pics to illustrate your point why did you ignore these from the modern NBA?

[jojo4341]

Seems relevant here:

Watch on YouTube

2044 is actually closer than when this commercial came out.

[homecourtloss]

Handchecking was banned in 1979. It was never legal to handcheck at any point in the 1980s and 1990s. We need to stop with the revisionist history.

It’s not revisionist history when I can post 10000s of pics of players like MJ being hand checked and hand checking people.

It’s like dhsilv2 stated - it was banned but also allowed in circumstances- but ref discretion allowed it to happen a lot as we can see by the pics

Like traveling - banned but allowed

Palming and carrying - banned but allowed

I have seen people explain that Ja doesn’t travel and get away with it - and at that point I stopped carrying what is banned and just go off of reality of what is happening -

Hand checking was happening in MJs day regardless of the rule and isn’t now for the most part

Go and watch any game today (especially live) and players are constantly “handchecked” or otherwise grabbed, bumped, etc., with no foul called.

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

If you are going to use pics to illustrate your point why did you ignore these from the modern NBA?

Exactly. If someone watches even a highlights video of 2000s/2010s/2020s player, they will see “handchecks,” grabs, pulls, two hand contact, etc., etc., which of course is nothing compared to how much one sees live.

[CobraCommander]

Handchecking has been banned since the 1970's. Jordan, Magic, Bird...none of these guys played in a league with legal hand checking. I know they'll tell you all about it because just like today...illegal hand checking happened. But it wasn't legal and it was called often.

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

If you are going to use pics to illustrate your point why did you ignore these from the modern NBA?

Oh I’m not but you either really young or you think the level of physicality is the same now as then?

Even the players agree it’s less physical and fouls are called on these plays in the nba now.

I agree with Dsliv on the point of playoffs being more physical

[TheGeneral99]

So then my memory fails me in my old age but I have vivid memories of Jordan slapping the hell out of someone’s hand




Oh look here is a pick of KJ hand checking Stockton and then Starks hand checking Jordan - so it was still happening in Jordan’s day- there is nuance to the rule of hand checking but hand checking did occur

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan


So now imagine someone with hands as big as Giannis or Kawhi being able to put hands on a guard!?!


KJ ain’t stopping MJ

But what’s funny is everyone knew even then the rules on hand checking were subject to whims of the ref- and the refs loved them some MJ

https://youtube.com/shorts/9xcr_1w480M?si=CAs4ZD3IkOZ95_kz


But even this elbow would be a foul today


Either way - I think the absence of any physicality on defense has led to the game being less interesting because it’s purely a situation where guys can travel, palm the ball, take 3 steps for unimpeded dunks on fast breaks and pretty much move unrestricted to their spots and all you can do is hope to block the shot and not touch the player at all or it’s a foul…

If you are going to use pics to illustrate your point why did you ignore these from the modern NBA?

Oh I’m not but you either really young or you think the level of physicality is the same now as then?

Even the players agree it’s less physical and fouls are called on these plays in the nba now.

I agree with Dsliv on the point of playoffs being more physical

I think the league is a bit less physical but by that much. It has more to do with how the game has evolved with the way offenses play and spacing.

The main reason why it "appears" less physical is because players are much more skilled, offenses are way more complex and less iso-oriented, teams play much faster, and players can shoot much better, which spaces out the floor.

[CobraCommander]

If you are going to use pics to illustrate your point why did you ignore these from the modern NBA?

Oh I’m not but you either really young or you think the level of physicality is the same now as then?

Even the players agree it’s less physical and fouls are called on these plays in the nba now.

I agree with Dsliv on the point of playoffs being more physical

I think the league is a bit less physical but by that much. It has more to do with how the game has evolved with the way offenses play and spacing.

The main reason why it "appears" less physical is because players are much more skilled, offenses are way more complex and less iso-oriented, teams play much faster, and players can shoot much better, which spaces out the floor.

So much more skilled that a guy that’s 40 still putting up 25? I guess the jordan rules didn’t exist

I think skills have improved as people were not allowed to touch you as you make moves to the basket - it’s ok...two things can be true -

[TheGeneral99]

Oh I’m not but you either really young or you think the level of physicality is the same now as then?

Even the players agree it’s less physical and fouls are called on these plays in the nba now.

I agree with Dsliv on the point of playoffs being more physical

I think the league is a bit less physical but by that much. It has more to do with how the game has evolved with the way offenses play and spacing.

The main reason why it "appears" less physical is because players are much more skilled, offenses are way more complex and less iso-oriented, teams play much faster, and players can shoot much better, which spaces out the floor.

So much more skilled that a guy that’s 40 still putting up 25? I guess the jordan rules didn’t exist

I think skills have improved as people were not allowed to touch you as you make moves to the basket - it’s ok...two things can be true -

Yes, Lebron is the biggest freak athlete in NBA history and he's also the only guy at his age still performing that well...it's not like we have other players playing at such a high-level at this age. Everybody else from his draft class...Wade, Bosh, Melo etc. are all retired. Lowry, CP3, Gibson and PJ Tucker are the only players age 38 and above who are still playing and all of them are shadows of their former selves. Go find any other player outside of Lebron doing what he's doing right now at that age?

Jordan retired for 3 years and came back in 2002 (which was the slowest most defensive period of the NBA) at the age of 38 and averaged 23ppg. These are freak athletes.

Karl Malone, another freak athlete made the all-star team at age 38 and averaged 22 and 9. At 39 he still averaged 21 and 8.

[dhsilv2]

Oh I’m not but you either really young or you think the level of physicality is the same now as then?

Even the players agree it’s less physical and fouls are called on these plays in the nba now.

I agree with Dsliv on the point of playoffs being more physical

I think the league is a bit less physical but by that much. It has more to do with how the game has evolved with the way offenses play and spacing.

The main reason why it "appears" less physical is because players are much more skilled, offenses are way more complex and less iso-oriented, teams play much faster, and players can shoot much better, which spaces out the floor.

The biggest difference is just flat out teams don't post up like they used to. But by no means is the game as physical in terms of player on player contact. Game is WAY more physical in terms of the demand on the body to play defense. But freedom of movement has reduced contact....and frankly to the determent of play's health. All this sprinting that takes place today is brutal on the body. Meanwhile offensive players get away with more contact outside of the post as well today.