Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks

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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#81 » by turnmeup88 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:36 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
UglyBugBall wrote:Do you mean it's the first time a rookie and second year player has lead the league in blocks?

Imagine you're in first grade of high school. You sat in on every class, but weren't officially enrolled, so you got to skip all the tests. You just sat, and learned by watching and listening for the entire year. Next year you officially enroll, redo the class and get straight A's on every test. Are you way smarter than the first year kid who got a B?



Wemby had 3-4.years of pro European experience before this season. Playing against men.

You think that's comparable to guys who did 2-3 years high school and 1 of college?


Rookie season is your first season playing and we don't care what you did before then.


I don't really care how we apoint players as rookies or whatever, but I also thought it should be the first year you are officially being paid by a franchise, which would get rid of all these arguments.

Wemby isn't a basketball rookie but he would be an NBA rookie. Either way, both are great and both are fun to have in the league.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#82 » by RoyceDa59 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:46 pm

Why do people care so much about rookie designation? Whats the real agenda behind it? Definitely coming from a strange place.

Anyways,

For the first time in history, two players who have previously never played an NBA game before, lead the league in total blocks in their first season playing NBA games. This has never happened before.

The Wemby vs Chet battle will go on for a decade+
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#83 » by Roy T » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:47 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:being mad that players who didn't play a single game before this year are referred to as a rookie is just one of the dumbest tropes.


Word up
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#84 » by DoctorX » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:53 pm

maradro wrote:Difference between 1st and 2nd: 64
Difference between 2nd and 3rd: 1

Seems a little silly to say they lead together, but sure technically that's right


Agreed this was some deceptive craftsmanship by the OP the way he wrote the post to imply they were tied for leading the league in blocks. Victor averaged 3.6 blocks per game and finished the season with a total of 254 blocks while Chet averaged 2.3 blocks and had 190 blocks. Victor is clearly on another level when it comes to shot blocking compared to Chet.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#85 » by Lockdown504090 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:55 pm

Ppl don’t go for blocks anymore because we don’t have power forwards to rebound anymore when they don’t get them. Okc is bottom of the league in defensive rebounding percentage on the glass as a result and wemby gets most blocks he goes for so it doesn’t matter. That being said Chet is insane
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#86 » by The-Power » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:55 pm

turnmeup88 wrote:I don't really care how we apoint players as rookies or whatever, but I also thought it should be the first year you are officially being paid by a franchise, which would get rid of all these arguments.

You know what else would get rid of the argument? Accepting that the NBA defines a Rookie as someone who has never played in the NBA before. That is as clear as it gets and makes at least as much sense as using the ‘being paid’ logic. And guess what would happen if you'd use the latter logic: a number of people would then argue that whether or not you have previously played in the NBA matters, not whether or not you have been paid by an NBA team.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#87 » by The-Power » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:58 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:Ppl don’t go for blocks anymore because we don’t have power forwards to rebound anymore when they don’t get them. Okc is bottom of the league in defensive rebounding percentage on the glass as a result and wemby gets most blocks he goes for so it doesn’t matter. That being said Chet is insane

Are you trying to argue that OKC is a bad defensive rebounding because Chet blocks shots? I hope I'm just confused by the phrasing because that would be an insane take that doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny. But if it's just about OKC's rebounding issues, I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread and Chet's shot blocking. Or is it about a perceived lack of competition because other NBA players have somehow decided to not want to block shots anymore?
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#88 » by kowboy » Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:59 pm

UglyBugBall wrote:Do you mean it's the first time a rookie and second year player has lead the league in blocks?

Imagine you're in first grade of high school. You sat in on every class, but weren't officially enrolled, so you got to skip all the tests. You just sat, and learned by watching and listening for the entire year. Next year you officially enroll, redo the class and get straight A's on every test. Are you way smarter than the first year kid who got a B?


It’s his first season playing games. He’s counted as a rookie and eligible for all related awards. Get over it.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#89 » by UcanUwill » Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:07 pm

UglyBugBall wrote:
JDR720 wrote:
UglyBugBall wrote:
More like Wemby went from Catholic school in Iowa to high school in London. Chet literally went to the same school he took the test in.

But Chet didn't take the test last year, he missed class because he was out sick the entire year. So, therefor, he got held back a grade. So.. he's freshmen still this year.


But he sat in on every class and listened for a whole year. He already knew the material he'd be tested on next year.


I totally understand people frustration with red shirted rookies, but I have never thought I would see a person fight for the idea, guy is not a rookie, so fiercefully... Guy is technically a rookie and it is a fact, end of story, and I am fascinated that I need to point out that taking a test, and playing in the NBA is not at all alike, and the whole analogy is laughable. Also, no one even claims that Chet did not have advantage, we all know he did, but fact is - his first NBA game ever was played this season, end of story.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#90 » by The Master » Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:36 pm

madskillz8 wrote:
TBH, I was thinking about 7'1+ players with long arms who played considerable minutes as a rookie, and I definitely missed out Mutombo and Robinson.

Mutombo 7'2-7'6 (avg. 3.0 blocks as a rookie, career average: 2.8)
Robinson 7'1-7'5 (avg. 3.9 blocks as a rookie, career average 3.0)

My main argument was the fact that rookies with extreme height and wingspan always produce high block numbers. Because height & wingspan is there from day 1. Anyone who played a pickup game with his younger cousins can understand what I am saying, even at 5'8 you can feel like a Dikembe Mutombo out there, lol.

Sure, I'm not disagreeing with the whole point: yes, there are several instances of players (Ibaka, Gobert from recent times), who improved defensively while decreasing their share of blocked shots, and examples of players (Embiid, Shaq) who decreased their blocking numbers due to heavy offensive load.

My points are:

1. The question is whether that will be the case with players (Wemby, Chet) who already are anchoring elite defenses/defenses on great level with them on a court (111 DRTG for Wemby since early December, top5 defense for OKC) + Wembanyama on offense as a rookie already played on 26-5 offensive volume (per36). He may not be too efficient as a scorer for now, but hard to deny he has already played on superstar 'load'.

2.

On yellow, 7'1+ guys, most names from top40 blockers of alltime:

Image

I could've added Embiid or Smits, but there are also examples of Ilgauskas, Yao or Roy Hibbert, who peaked in their non-rookie years.

If you look on per possession basis, I don't there's as strong correlation as you suggest (several guys peaking in their non-rookie year). Rookie stats vs career are still higher (that proves your point obviously), but I guess that can be partially explained by the fact that most of these guys were more athletic as rookies than in the latter part of their careers.

And first and foremost - Smits, Embiid, Shaq, McHale or Gobert - they're all good examples, but the basic difference is - Wemby as a rookie is already borderline-DPOTY defender and Chet is ~All-NBA D Team candidate. Mutombo, Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Duncan, Mourning - so the players impact-wise comparable to what we believe Chet and Wemby may reach one day - actually had different 'curve' of development as shot-blockers. Not to mention they were all older than rookie Wemby (and in some cases older than Chet as well).

That's why - while I agree with or understand the whole premise of your argumentation (and don't forget that blocked shots =/= level of defense, necessarily) - I'd rather bet that it won't be the case for Wemby/Chet. That being said, these stats show that their 'blocking peak' may not be as high as some would like to believe, and that's another thing I agree with.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#91 » by UglyBugBall » Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:10 pm

Harry Garris wrote:
UglyBugBall wrote:Do you mean it's the first time a rookie and second year player has lead the league in blocks?

Imagine you're in first grade of high school. You sat in on every class, but weren't officially enrolled, so you got to skip all the tests. You just sat, and learned by watching and listening for the entire year. Next year you officially enroll, redo the class and get straight A's on every test. Are you way smarter than the first year kid who got a B?


This is the most ridiculous argument because the NBA defines what a rookie is. Your rookie year is not the first year you receive a NBA paycheck, it’s the first year you play in games.

The NBA gets to define what a rookie is because they’re the relevant governing authority. It’s like arguing against the US government that they don’t know how to run the government and you do. Your opinion in such cases does not matter because the other side gets to define the rules.


Wrong, were a democracy we the people make the rules.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#92 » by knicksNOTslick » Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:20 pm

UglyBugBall wrote:
reload141 wrote:
UglyBugBall wrote:
He didn't play. My analogy covered that. It's the same as sitting in on a class but never taking the tests. I already covered this.


Correct. You did. So they are both 1st year rookies.

I’m glad we came to this conclusion together :)


So the kid that spent a year in school, never took the tests, and then redid the class next year and acted the tests didn't have any advantage? Got it

Yes he got an advantage but he also wasted a crucial year of development and have to rehab and get back to 100 percent. Watching and doing are two different things and it's unfortunate that it happens. They can't control that. It is what it is. Chet played zero games last year so that makes him a rookie this year. Who cares if he got to experience the NBA from the sidelines for a year? He didn't play a minute.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#93 » by shrink » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:27 pm

Blocks is the one stat that is completely dependent on an opponent, and young players are going to get challenged.

Walker Kessler was #4 in total blocks last year. This year he is #2 in blocks/game.

I don’t believe either are in the top five for rim deterrence.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#94 » by Lockdown504090 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:38 pm

The-Power wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:Ppl don’t go for blocks anymore because we don’t have power forwards to rebound anymore when they don’t get them. Okc is bottom of the league in defensive rebounding percentage on the glass as a result and wemby gets most blocks he goes for so it doesn’t matter. That being said Chet is insane

Are you trying to argue that OKC is a bad defensive rebounding because Chet blocks shots? I hope I'm just confused by the phrasing because that would be an insane take that doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny. But if it's just about OKC's rebounding issues, I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread and Chet's shot blocking. Or is it about a perceived lack of competition because other NBA players have somehow decided to not want to block shots anymore?

Hold it up to scrutiny if you like, but I can think of a few current and historical examples where getting out of position for blocks leads to worse defensive rebounding in some cases, including Chet. It’s not possible to come all the way over or jump sideways and still box out your man. Look at Jaren for example, Anthony Davis only blocks two shots a game. That’s by design. I thought this was a widely known thing, it’s not to do with competitiveness. Chet is at the top of the league in paint contests.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#95 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:42 pm

shrink wrote:Blocks is the one stat that is completely dependent on an opponent, and young players are going to get challenged.

Walker Kessler was #4 in total blocks last year. This year he is #2 in blocks/game.

I don’t believe either are in the top five for rim deterrence.



From BBall Index of centers playing more than 500 minutes.

Image



Also, this, which isn't deterrence but does show what happens when folks are undeterred:

Image
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#96 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:44 pm

The-Power wrote:Are you trying to argue that OKC is a bad defensive rebounding because Chet blocks shots? I hope I'm just confused by the phrasing because that would be an insane take that doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny


fwiw, okc improved a lot on the defensive boards later in the year while chet's block rate decreased a bit. same is true for chet himself.

chet pre-asb: 8.5% blk rate, 21.6% drb
chet post-asb: 5.7% blk rate, 26.9% drb

the correlation doesn't prove causation but i think chet being a bit more measured when it comes to shot contests is at least part of this improvement.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#97 » by The-Power » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:44 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
The-Power wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:Ppl don’t go for blocks anymore because we don’t have power forwards to rebound anymore when they don’t get them. Okc is bottom of the league in defensive rebounding percentage on the glass as a result and wemby gets most blocks he goes for so it doesn’t matter. That being said Chet is insane

Are you trying to argue that OKC is a bad defensive rebounding because Chet blocks shots? I hope I'm just confused by the phrasing because that would be an insane take that doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny. But if it's just about OKC's rebounding issues, I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread and Chet's shot blocking. Or is it about a perceived lack of competition because other NBA players have somehow decided to not want to block shots anymore?

Hold it up to scrutiny if you like, but I can think of a few current and historical examples where getting out of position for blocks leads to worse defensive rebounding in some cases, including Chet. It’s not possible to come all the way over or jump sideways and still box out your man. Look at Jaren for example, Anthony Davis only blocks two shots a game. That’s by design. I thought this was a widely known thing, it’s not to do with competitiveness. Chet is at the top of the league in paint contests.

Do you have any data on how many of Chet's blocks are rebounded by opponents versus his own team (mind you that this would only have a minuscule impact on overall DRB% considering how low the ratio of blocked shots versus non-blocked shots still is) or that Chet in particular is out of position when he goes for blocks and this is overall detrimental to his team's defense? Because ‘Chet blocks a lot of shots and OKC is a poor defensive rebounding team, ergo his shot blocking must hurt his team’ is not exactly convincing analysis.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#98 » by Harry Garris » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:53 pm

UglyBugBall wrote:
Harry Garris wrote:
UglyBugBall wrote:Do you mean it's the first time a rookie and second year player has lead the league in blocks?

Imagine you're in first grade of high school. You sat in on every class, but weren't officially enrolled, so you got to skip all the tests. You just sat, and learned by watching and listening for the entire year. Next year you officially enroll, redo the class and get straight A's on every test. Are you way smarter than the first year kid who got a B?


This is the most ridiculous argument because the NBA defines what a rookie is. Your rookie year is not the first year you receive a NBA paycheck, it’s the first year you play in games.

The NBA gets to define what a rookie is because they’re the relevant governing authority. It’s like arguing against the US government that they don’t know how to run the government and you do. Your opinion in such cases does not matter because the other side gets to define the rules.


Wrong, were a democracy we the people make the rules.


The NBA is not a democracy
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#99 » by slick_watts » Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:01 pm

The-Power wrote:Do you have any data on how many of Chet's blocks are rebounded by opponents versus his own team


64.8% of chet's blocks are recovered by the thunder which is above average for shot blockers in the nba. this is, obviously, teammate and scheme dependent.
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Re: Wemby and Chet lead the league in blocks 

Post#100 » by Lockdown504090 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:34 pm

The-Power wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
The-Power wrote:Are you trying to argue that OKC is a bad defensive rebounding because Chet blocks shots? I hope I'm just confused by the phrasing because that would be an insane take that doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny. But if it's just about OKC's rebounding issues, I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread and Chet's shot blocking. Or is it about a perceived lack of competition because other NBA players have somehow decided to not want to block shots anymore?

Hold it up to scrutiny if you like, but I can think of a few current and historical examples where getting out of position for blocks leads to worse defensive rebounding in some cases, including Chet. It’s not possible to come all the way over or jump sideways and still box out your man. Look at Jaren for example, Anthony Davis only blocks two shots a game. That’s by design. I thought this was a widely known thing, it’s not to do with competitiveness. Chet is at the top of the league in paint contests.

Do you have any data on how many of Chet's blocks are rebounded by opponents versus his own team (mind you that this would only have a minuscule impact on overall DRB% considering how low the ratio of blocked shots versus non-blocked shots still is) or that Chet in particular is out of position when he goes for blocks and this is overall detrimental to his team's defense? Because ‘Chet blocks a lot of shots and OKC is a poor defensive rebounding team, ergo his shot blocking must hurt his team’ is not exactly convincing analysis.

Aight man, that what coaches instruct their players to do. This is rooted in the numbers if you disagree. Sure, feel free to go look, but in 2024 this is pretty rudimentary at this point. It’s been a think for a decade

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