Best 5 players over the past 25 years

[Ol Roy]

OP should consider taking a "one and done" approach to whatever they are attempting to communicate via these passive-aggressive poll threads.

[One_and_Done]

I'm not surprised the top 5 are leading, but it's by more than I'd have expected

[MavsDirk41]

If you ever bothered to read my posts you'd know I basically never cite all in one metrics, etc.

More comically, you then tell me I should pay more attention to "Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players". This is amusing as I often cite these things; not as a be all and end all, but as an initial indicator of how a player was rated during their career. Kobe's accolades are more in line with a top 20 player than a top 15 one. He has exactly 1 MVP, and was never particularly close to winning a 2nd... and that MVP was widely mocked at the time as a lifetime achievement award, because people felt bad Kobe didn't have one yet.

If you "watched the players" you'd know that "player accomplishments" tend to be affected somewhat by context. Kobe's ringz are a good example. He had better context than others, so he has more rings. That's a team accomplishment. In terms of individual achievements, his ability to carry a team would be an example of that, and Kobe was very mediocre in that regard. From 99-07 he led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games Shaq missed, and I know that because I watched the games, just like I watched Kobe choke in the playoffs many times (e.g. 04, 00, 08, 10, 11, game 7 of 06, etc).

Whats comical is your ranking of certain players you just dont like. Durant has had some playoff dissapointments like every other superstar player has. Kobe won two championships as the best player on his team. Durant won 2 championships on maybe the most stacked team of all time, or at least since the 80s probably. Durant teamed up with Curry and his squad to win 2 rings. Secondly, looking at their playoff matchups, they are very simliar. Neither one dominated the other. But lets look at the talent they played with shall we?

Durant:
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Irving
Thompson
Green


Kobe:
Shaq
Gasol
Artest
Howard
Nash (old)
Odom

And Durant is currently playing with Booker and Beal. Durant has played with far more talent but won less….and yes, the level of talent a player plays with throughout their career matters.

My ranking is based on objective judgment of their impact. I don’t much care for Karl Malone as a human being, but as a basketball player I think he had a good case to be around top 15 all-time, and not much lower than that at worst. The one thing has nothing to do with the other in his case (in other cases, some players bad attitudes actually spill over onto the court and affect the team performance).

The sort of analysis you are doing is lazy and contextless, because it doesn’t look at the circumstances in which guys had their team-mates.

In the case of KD, it’s definitely true he had a stacked deck for his 2 titles. That was the GOAT team. But I don’t judge guys on rings, so why should that bother me? The only real value is how well you played to get the ring, not the ring itself. A title is more useful as a proof of concept, showing that your play style could actually succeed at the highest levels.

A more sensible analysis would be: KD had a poor fitting team around him in OKC, but once he got the necessary talent to win a title he went back to back, and was only stopped from a threepeat by injuries to his team (including and especially his own). On OKC the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the starting line-up after KD himself was usually Serge Ibaka. That’s horrific. The team also had various injuries that sunk different seasons. In 2012 their coach stupidly plays Perkins in the finals, Harden then leaves, 2013 injures, 2014 lose to a legendary Spurs team (with Ibaka missing the first 2 games of the series), 2015 injuries, 2016 lose in an epic 7 game series v.s a team that outmatched them. I could go on with post 2019 injuries too. KD has certainly had a lot of extenuating circumstances. What I’d focus on more though is how he has shown he is able to lift a team even absent a lot of support. When Westbrook was out for instance in 2014, KD had them at 25-11. In 21 when he played they were 23-12. In 2022 they were 36-19 in games KD played. In 2023 his teams were 34-13 in games he played. Even in 2024, with KD clearly past his prime and the team constantly injured, they were 44-31 when he played, well above 500.

Then you have Kobe, whose record without Shaq from 99-07 is 135-137. Kobe was not a floor raiser. He showed that repeatedly. Nor was he that great as a ceiling lifter compared to the cream of the crop like KD, certainly he fits next to other players less well than KD who is one of the GOATs of portability.

Your contextless attempt to compare them also ignores completely the quality of the leagues they were playing in. KD generally played in stronger leagues than Kobe did, as the modern game is stronger than it was 20 years ago. I could care less about KD losing in 2016 for instance, because he was supposed to lose to the 73 win Warriors. It was impressive he pushed it to 7 and that the Warriors needed a miracle to make it as close as it was. On the other end of the coin Kobe was on the team favoured to win the title at least 10 times, and he only came through 5 of those times. That’s a horrific record.

There is nothing objective about your post and everyone can see. Your entire objective for posting on here is to disparage a dead man which is quiet pathetic.

Durant had a poor fitting team around him in OKC? Is that why he was shooting 35% from the field and 29% from 3 in the 2010 playoffs? Or 43% from the field and 23% from 3 in the 2011 WCFs? How about his struggles against Boston in the 2022 playoffs where he shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3? Was that his teams fault or did he just struggle? All superstars have had their playoff struggles or failures but you will give a pass for Durant and James blaming their teammates but crucify Kobe and Jordan for it. And you always go back to the same crap about current players playing in a stronger league blah blah blah…you do understand this is nothing more than your opinion right? Nothing more….

[One_and_Done]

Kobe had plenty of worse series, and not when he was 21 and 22 years either. And yes, having bad spacing around you can impact your efficiency. Duh. The fact everyone can have a bad series is why we go off averages, and I provided those. KD kills Kobe on the averages.

Anyone who thinks the league today is as tough as the league 20-30 years ago is not being objective.

[MavsDirk41]

Kobe had plenty of worse series, and not when he was 21 and 22 years either. And yes, having bad spacing around you can impact your efficiency. Duh. The fact everyone can have a bad series is why we go off averages, and I provided those. KD kills Kobe on the averages.

Anyone who thinks the league today is as tough as the league 20-30 years ago is not being objective.

Ok well Kobe in the 2009 WCF averaged 34/6/6 on 48/34/93 shooting splits. In the finals he averaged 32/6/7 on 43/36/84 shooting…2010 WCF he averaged 34/7/8 on 52/43/88…2010 finals he put up 29/8/4 though he didnt shoot well. Soooo he had some big time performances in big times playoff series (as the best player on his team) as well but all you want to do is focus on his struggles. Why passes for Durant and James? Their teammates sucked right lol??

Ive been watching basketball all day pal and im no more impressed with what i have watched today than what i watched in the 90s. The league is deeper cause the international talent but you are over exaggerating it.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe had plenty of worse series, and not when he was 21 and 22 years either. And yes, having bad spacing around you can impact your efficiency. Duh. The fact everyone can have a bad series is why we go off averages, and I provided those. KD kills Kobe on the averages.

Anyone who thinks the league today is as tough as the league 20-30 years ago is not being objective.

Ok well Kobe in the 2009 WCF averaged 34/6/6 on 48/34/93 shooting splits. In the finals he averaged 32/6/7 on 43/36/84 shooting…2010 WCF he averaged 34/7/8 on 52/43/88…2010 finals he put up 29/8/4 though he didnt shoot well. Soooo he had some big time performances in big times playoff series (as the best player on his team) as well but all you want to do is focus on his struggles. Why passes for Durant and James? Their teammates sucked right lol??

Ive been watching basketball all day pal and im no more impressed with what i have watched today than what i watched in the 90s. The league is deeper cause the international talent but you are over exaggerating it.

As I said, we call them averages for a reason. Nobody is judging Kobe purely off his worst series, and nobody should judge him off his best either. On the whole though KD spanks him.

[MavsDirk41]

Kobe had plenty of worse series, and not when he was 21 and 22 years either. And yes, having bad spacing around you can impact your efficiency. Duh. The fact everyone can have a bad series is why we go off averages, and I provided those. KD kills Kobe on the averages.

Anyone who thinks the league today is as tough as the league 20-30 years ago is not being objective.

Ok well Kobe in the 2009 WCF averaged 34/6/6 on 48/34/93 shooting splits. In the finals he averaged 32/6/7 on 43/36/84 shooting…2010 WCF he averaged 34/7/8 on 52/43/88…2010 finals he put up 29/8/4 though he didnt shoot well. Soooo he had some big time performances in big times playoff series (as the best player on his team) as well but all you want to do is focus on his struggles. Why passes for Durant and James? Their teammates sucked right lol??

Ive been watching basketball all day pal and im no more impressed with what i have watched today than what i watched in the 90s. The league is deeper cause the international talent but you are over exaggerating it.

As I said, we call them averages for a reason. Nobody is judging Kobe purely off his worst series, and nobody should judge him off his best either. On the whole though KD spanks him.

Answer the question pal. Why passes for Durant and James but not for Kobe and Jordan? You have blamed Durant and James teammates on here before but Kobe and Jordan lost cause they couldn’t get the job done….why passes for some and not others?

[One_and_Done]

Ok well Kobe in the 2009 WCF averaged 34/6/6 on 48/34/93 shooting splits. In the finals he averaged 32/6/7 on 43/36/84 shooting…2010 WCF he averaged 34/7/8 on 52/43/88…2010 finals he put up 29/8/4 though he didnt shoot well. Soooo he had some big time performances in big times playoff series (as the best player on his team) as well but all you want to do is focus on his struggles. Why passes for Durant and James? Their teammates sucked right lol??

Ive been watching basketball all day pal and im no more impressed with what i have watched today than what i watched in the 90s. The league is deeper cause the international talent but you are over exaggerating it.

As I said, we call them averages for a reason. Nobody is judging Kobe purely off his worst series, and nobody should judge him off his best either. On the whole though KD spanks him.

Answer the question pal. Why passes for Durant and James but not for Kobe and Jordan? You have blamed Durant and James teammates on here before but Kobe and Jordan lost cause they couldn’t get the job done….why passes for some and not others?

I haven't handed out any passes. Everything should be assessed in context. Kobe's context is he was on the team that was title favourite at least 10 times, and he only won 5 times. Other people had less favourable contexts.

Looking at the poll results it seems mos people agree with me. The first 5 names I listed are winning easily, and the 'other' vote has only 28 votes (4%). Nor are those all for Kobe. Posters on here have indicated other votes are also for others like Dirk, Wade, Kawhi, etc.

[MavsDirk41]

As I said, we call them averages for a reason. Nobody is judging Kobe purely off his worst series, and nobody should judge him off his best either. On the whole though KD spanks him.

Answer the question pal. Why passes for Durant and James but not for Kobe and Jordan? You have blamed Durant and James teammates on here before but Kobe and Jordan lost cause they couldn’t get the job done….why passes for some and not others?

I haven't handed out any passes. Everything should be assessed in context. Kobe's context is he was on the team that was title favourite at least 10 times, and he only won 5 times. Other people had less favourable contexts.

Looking at the poll results it seems mos people agree with me. The first 5 names I listed are winning easily, and the 'other' vote has only 28 votes (4%). Nor are those all for Kobe. Posters on here have indicated other votes are also for others like Dirk, Wade, Kawhi, etc.

All you do is hand out passes on here for the players you like…..consistently blaming a players teammates for their failure

[One_and_Done]

It's called context. You seem to be cool with using it when it suits you, I just use it consistently. What's the context for Kobe playing like ass in the 04 finals?

[PassMeTheBall]

Duncan, Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, Curry

[MavsDirk41]

It's called context. You seem to be cool with using it when it suits you, I just use it consistently. What's the context for Kobe playing like ass in the 04 finals?

2004 23/3/4 on 38/17/92 player A
2007 22/7/7 on 35/20/69 player B
2011 17/7/7 on 48/32/60 player B


You use it consistently lol? Really? Whats the context for player Bs struggles in the 07/11 finals? I guess ill wait for an excuse now….

[rockmanslim]

No bad choices here

[The4thHorseman]

Whats comical is your ranking of certain players you just dont like. Durant has had some playoff dissapointments like every other superstar player has. Kobe won two championships as the best player on his team. Durant won 2 championships on maybe the most stacked team of all time, or at least since the 80s probably. Durant teamed up with Curry and his squad to win 2 rings. Secondly, looking at their playoff matchups, they are very simliar. Neither one dominated the other. But lets look at the talent they played with shall we?

Durant:
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Irving
Thompson
Green


Kobe:
Shaq
Gasol
Artest
Howard
Nash (old)
Odom

And Durant is currently playing with Booker and Beal. Durant has played with far more talent but won less….and yes, the level of talent a player plays with throughout their career matters.

My ranking is based on objective judgment of their impact. I don’t much care for Karl Malone as a human being, but as a basketball player I think he had a good case to be around top 15 all-time, and not much lower than that at worst. The one thing has nothing to do with the other in his case (in other cases, some players bad attitudes actually spill over onto the court and affect the team performance).

The sort of analysis you are doing is lazy and contextless, because it doesn’t look at the circumstances in which guys had their team-mates.

In the case of KD, it’s definitely true he had a stacked deck for his 2 titles. That was the GOAT team. But I don’t judge guys on rings, so why should that bother me? The only real value is how well you played to get the ring, not the ring itself. A title is more useful as a proof of concept, showing that your play style could actually succeed at the highest levels.

A more sensible analysis would be: KD had a poor fitting team around him in OKC, but once he got the necessary talent to win a title he went back to back, and was only stopped from a threepeat by injuries to his team (including and especially his own). On OKC the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the starting line-up after KD himself was usually Serge Ibaka. That’s horrific. The team also had various injuries that sunk different seasons. In 2012 their coach stupidly plays Perkins in the finals, Harden then leaves, 2013 injures, 2014 lose to a legendary Spurs team (with Ibaka missing the first 2 games of the series), 2015 injuries, 2016 lose in an epic 7 game series v.s a team that outmatched them. I could go on with post 2019 injuries too. KD has certainly had a lot of extenuating circumstances. What I’d focus on more though is how he has shown he is able to lift a team even absent a lot of support. When Westbrook was out for instance in 2014, KD had them at 25-11. In 21 when he played they were 23-12. In 2022 they were 36-19 in games KD played. In 2023 his teams were 34-13 in games he played. Even in 2024, with KD clearly past his prime and the team constantly injured, they were 44-31 when he played, well above 500.

Then you have Kobe, whose record without Shaq from 99-07 is 135-137. Kobe was not a floor raiser. He showed that repeatedly. Nor was he that great as a ceiling lifter compared to the cream of the crop like KD, certainly he fits next to other players less well than KD who is one of the GOATs of portability.

Your contextless attempt to compare them also ignores completely the quality of the leagues they were playing in. KD generally played in stronger leagues than Kobe did, as the modern game is stronger than it was 20 years ago. I could care less about KD losing in 2016 for instance, because he was supposed to lose to the 73 win Warriors. It was impressive he pushed it to 7 and that the Warriors needed a miracle to make it as close as it was. On the other end of the coin Kobe was on the team favoured to win the title at least 10 times, and he only came through 5 of those times. That’s a horrific record.

There is nothing objective about your post and everyone can see. Your entire objective for posting on here is to disparage a dead man which is quiet pathetic.

Durant had a poor fitting team around him in OKC? Is that why he was shooting 35% from the field and 29% from 3 in the 2010 playoffs? Or 43% from the field and 23% from 3 in the 2011 WCFs? How about his struggles against Boston in the 2022 playoffs where he shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3? Was that his teams fault or did he just struggle? All superstars have had their playoff struggles or failures but you will give a pass for Durant and James blaming their teammates but crucify Kobe and Jordan for it. And you always go back to the same crap about current players playing in a stronger league blah blah blah…you do understand this is nothing more than your opinion right? Nothing more….

Funny coming you whose done nothing but **** on LeBron here for the last few years.

[One_and_Done]

It's called context. You seem to be cool with using it when it suits you, I just use it consistently. What's the context for Kobe playing like ass in the 04 finals?

2004 23/3/4 on 38/17/92 player A
2007 22/7/7 on 35/20/69 player B
2011 17/7/7 on 48/32/60 player B


You use it consistently lol? Really? Whats the context for player Bs struggles in the 07/11 finals? I guess ill wait for an excuse now….

Are the stats pace adjusted? No. Is the TS% listed? No. Is the context noted? No. Not all 26ppg are equal, it's about context. Who did you play? Did the team meet or exceed expectations? Why or why not. Volume stats don't tell you that.

I've discussed my thoughts on the 2011 finals before. In 07 it was amazing Lebron even got that garbage team to the finals. In 04 the Lakers were favoured to win, and Kobe cost them the finals with his disgustingly selfish play. Pretty different contexts. The favourites in 2011 were the Lakers ironiccally enough. Kobe got spanked by Dirk and played like trash. At least Lebron got his flawed team to the finals and took 2 games (and was almost 3-0 up).

[Special_Puppy]

LeBron, CP3, Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett

[IG2]

Kobe's resume is easily better than KG, KD, Luka & Giannis come on....

[One_and_Done]

Kobe's resume is easily better than KG, KD, Luka & Giannis come on....

This is about who you take moving forward, so you can project Luka or Giannis remaining careers. KG and KD have already surpassed Kobe. They were better players than he ever was, and have plenty of longevity.

[MavsDirk41]

My ranking is based on objective judgment of their impact. I don’t much care for Karl Malone as a human being, but as a basketball player I think he had a good case to be around top 15 all-time, and not much lower than that at worst. The one thing has nothing to do with the other in his case (in other cases, some players bad attitudes actually spill over onto the court and affect the team performance).

The sort of analysis you are doing is lazy and contextless, because it doesn’t look at the circumstances in which guys had their team-mates.

In the case of KD, it’s definitely true he had a stacked deck for his 2 titles. That was the GOAT team. But I don’t judge guys on rings, so why should that bother me? The only real value is how well you played to get the ring, not the ring itself. A title is more useful as a proof of concept, showing that your play style could actually succeed at the highest levels.

A more sensible analysis would be: KD had a poor fitting team around him in OKC, but once he got the necessary talent to win a title he went back to back, and was only stopped from a threepeat by injuries to his team (including and especially his own). On OKC the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the starting line-up after KD himself was usually Serge Ibaka. That’s horrific. The team also had various injuries that sunk different seasons. In 2012 their coach stupidly plays Perkins in the finals, Harden then leaves, 2013 injures, 2014 lose to a legendary Spurs team (with Ibaka missing the first 2 games of the series), 2015 injuries, 2016 lose in an epic 7 game series v.s a team that outmatched them. I could go on with post 2019 injuries too. KD has certainly had a lot of extenuating circumstances. What I’d focus on more though is how he has shown he is able to lift a team even absent a lot of support. When Westbrook was out for instance in 2014, KD had them at 25-11. In 21 when he played they were 23-12. In 2022 they were 36-19 in games KD played. In 2023 his teams were 34-13 in games he played. Even in 2024, with KD clearly past his prime and the team constantly injured, they were 44-31 when he played, well above 500.

Then you have Kobe, whose record without Shaq from 99-07 is 135-137. Kobe was not a floor raiser. He showed that repeatedly. Nor was he that great as a ceiling lifter compared to the cream of the crop like KD, certainly he fits next to other players less well than KD who is one of the GOATs of portability.

Your contextless attempt to compare them also ignores completely the quality of the leagues they were playing in. KD generally played in stronger leagues than Kobe did, as the modern game is stronger than it was 20 years ago. I could care less about KD losing in 2016 for instance, because he was supposed to lose to the 73 win Warriors. It was impressive he pushed it to 7 and that the Warriors needed a miracle to make it as close as it was. On the other end of the coin Kobe was on the team favoured to win the title at least 10 times, and he only came through 5 of those times. That’s a horrific record.

There is nothing objective about your post and everyone can see. Your entire objective for posting on here is to disparage a dead man which is quiet pathetic.

Durant had a poor fitting team around him in OKC? Is that why he was shooting 35% from the field and 29% from 3 in the 2010 playoffs? Or 43% from the field and 23% from 3 in the 2011 WCFs? How about his struggles against Boston in the 2022 playoffs where he shot 39% from the field and 33% from 3? Was that his teams fault or did he just struggle? All superstars have had their playoff struggles or failures but you will give a pass for Durant and James blaming their teammates but crucify Kobe and Jordan for it. And you always go back to the same crap about current players playing in a stronger league blah blah blah…you do understand this is nothing more than your opinion right? Nothing more….

Funny coming you whose done nothing but **** on LeBron here for the last few years.

I figured you would be on here at some point to defend him. Anybody who says “i want my damn respect” after his team wins a championship, blames his teammates for losing a finals series (like he just did on JJs podcast), mocks Dirks during a finals, and spends a majority of his career choosing his teammates and then be passive agressive towards them is no player i care to watch or cheer for. Yea, i dont like the guy.

But i was seeking an explanation from his biggest fan on here on why some players get passes for losing and some dont….i know why he does it, i just think its funny that he wont admit it.

[MavsDirk41]

It's called context. You seem to be cool with using it when it suits you, I just use it consistently. What's the context for Kobe playing like ass in the 04 finals?

2004 23/3/4 on 38/17/92 player A
2007 22/7/7 on 35/20/69 player B
2011 17/7/7 on 48/32/60 player B


You use it consistently lol? Really? Whats the context for player Bs struggles in the 07/11 finals? I guess ill wait for an excuse now….

Are the stats pace adjusted? No. Is the TS% listed? No. Is the context noted? No. Not all 26ppg are equal, it's about context. Who did you play? Did the team meet or exceed expectations? Why or why not. Volume stats don't tell you that.

I've discussed my thoughts on the 2011 finals before. In 07 it was amazing Lebron even got that garbage team to the finals. In 04 the Lakers were favoured to win, and Kobe cost them the finals with his disgustingly selfish play. Pretty different contexts. The favourites in 2011 were the Lakers ironiccally enough. Kobe got spanked by Dirk and played like trash. At least Lebron got his flawed team to the finals and took 2 games (and was almost 3-0 up).

The Heat were 58-24 in the regular season and 12-3 in the playoffs prior to the finals in 2011. They were favorites to beat the Mavs in the finals and had a 2-1 series lead plus they were leading game 4 going into the 4th quarter. But keep making excuses like your parents are asking you if you did your homework. Saying ole chosen had a flawed team is hilarious. Was Kobe’s finals team flawless! That 04 Lakers team was perfect huh?