Jokic's Road to GOATness Happens in 2024

[ChipotleWest]

The amount of slobbering this forum does for Joker is a little bit sickening.

This is the sort of phrasing which undercuts the legitimacy of an attempted point made.

"Slobbering" has a very intentional negative connotation to the amount of adulation Jokic receives, which is at odds with the factual reality of his play. You may disagree with the specific rankings people have of him, and may consider it premature to place him in the range all-time which some advance, but to denigrate the opposite position isn't really appropriate or legitimate given his accomplishments.

That in mind, it's also worth remembering that while his championship collection is limited compared to a small selection of ATGs in league history, he's also a 2-time MVP. There are only 13 guys in league history who have won at least 2 MVPs. And of those, only 11 have done it in consecutive seasons (Karl Malone and Bob Pettit did not). Also, only 5 guys have an MVP season at .300+ WS/48, which is just one of many monstrous statistical achievements he has, along with that title.

So while you're disagreeing, don't forget to afford baseline respect for the incredible things he's been doing which have generated that discussion in the first place.

I stopped reading about the 2nd paragraph. Do you think Jokic is the GOAT or even top 5 right now yes or no? If yes you're ridiculous if no then I'm correct.

[tsherkin]

I stopped reading about the 2nd paragraph.

That's on you for being lazy, then. If you're going to reply to me, read the whole post, or don't bother at all. To do otherwise is just a waste of everyone's time.

[EmpireFalls]

He will never be GOAT. That doesn't mean he's not a truly transcendent and amazing player.

[tsherkin]

He will never be GOAT. That doesn't mean he's not a truly transcendent and amazing player.

"Never" is a long time when so much of his relevant career remains. It isn't unfair to suggest he very likely won't, since we really only seem to have that argument about once every decade to decade and a half. The argument was largely Wilt/Russell, then snuck in Kareem, then basically MJ, and post MJ we didn't have much talk until later on with Lebron. It takes quite a lot to get there, but like.. the kind of conversation we're having around Joker in his 9th season is fairly similar to the talk around Jordan as he went into the playoffs in his 7th season... "incredible stats and impact; needs more rings." Jordan didn't cement anything until he started winning, and that took team context around him.

We shall see what Jokic does over the next little while, but ruling it out is at odds with how GOAT-level careers actually unfold across basketball history. It would be heartily premature at this point to rule him out conclusively.

[NZB2323]

The amount of slobbering this forum does for Joker is a little bit sickening. He's great and all but as of right this second he has won 1 ring where his team beat two #8 seeds one #7 seed and a #4 seed, if you just do it by seeds that's the easiest path in NBA history to a championship. He is no where near the GOAT. If he wins about 3 or 4 more of rings then talk to me.

Murray was injured in 2021 and 2022. Otherwise Jokic might have 3 rings.

[AleksandarN]

The amount of slobbering this forum does for Joker is a little bit sickening.

This is the sort of phrasing which undercuts the legitimacy of an attempted point made.

"Slobbering" has a very intentional negative connotation to the amount of adulation Jokic receives, which is at odds with the factual reality of his play. You may disagree with the specific rankings people have of him, and may consider it premature to place him in the range all-time which some advance, but to denigrate the opposite position isn't really appropriate or legitimate given his accomplishments.

That in mind, it's also worth remembering that while his championship collection is limited compared to a small selection of ATGs in league history, he's also a 2-time MVP. There are only 13 guys in league history who have won at least 2 MVPs. And of those, only 11 have done it in consecutive seasons (Karl Malone and Bob Pettit did not). Also, only 5 guys have an MVP season at .300+ WS/48, which is just one of many monstrous statistical achievements he has, along with that title.

So while you're disagreeing, don't forget to afford baseline respect for the incredible things he's been doing which have generated that discussion in the first place.

I stopped reading about the 2nd paragraph. Do you think Jokic is the GOAT or even top 5 right now yes or no? If yes you're ridiculous if no then I'm correct.

Why the f. Would he reply to you when you didn’t read his post beyond the first paragraph. Why engage in a discussion with you when you admitted yourself you don’t bother reading their replies. Talk about dishonesty. You are either trolling or don’t have intellectual capacity to have an honest conversation.

[p0peye]

Where this calculus leaves Jokić at if Lakers win in 1st round?

Depends on how he plays. Jokic has been one of the most consistent performers in the history of the sport to the point where most people don't even consider it possible that he could play bad. If Jokic puts up a solid 25/12/9 on a PER of 30 and his team looses because the rest of the nuggets shoot <40%, i doubt anyone will care.

Plenty of talking heads were disparaging him for lacking playoff success before Nuggets won, no matter how he actually performed himself.

[tsherkin]

Where this calculus leaves Jokić at if Lakers win in 1st round?

Depends on how he plays. Jokic has been one of the most consistent performers in the history of the sport to the point where most people don't even consider it possible that he could play bad. If Jokic puts up a solid 25/12/9 on a PER of 30 and his team looses because the rest of the nuggets shoot <40%, i doubt anyone will care.

Plenty of talking heads were disparaging him for lacking playoff success before Nuggets won, no matter how he actually performed himself.

Yeah, mouthpieces generally do that. It's convenient to rip on performers who don't have the team context to have the team-based results. They did it to Jordan back in the day as well, and Wilt. Only winning titles sates the broader public's palette for rankings after a given threshold; to an extent, that happens all over, but there, it inhibits recognition of player quality.

In Jordan's day, it was "scoring champions don't win titles." Even if he was also as or more efficient than the bigs which were the championed focal scorers of the day, and competing well with Magic and Bird in a variety of ways whilst they were at their apex.

[p0peye]

Depends on how he plays. Jokic has been one of the most consistent performers in the history of the sport to the point where most people don't even consider it possible that he could play bad. If Jokic puts up a solid 25/12/9 on a PER of 30 and his team looses because the rest of the nuggets shoot <40%, i doubt anyone will care.

Plenty of talking heads were disparaging him for lacking playoff success before Nuggets won, no matter how he actually performed himself.

Yeah, mouthpieces generally do that. It's convenient to rip on performers who don't have the team context to have the team-based results. They did it to Jordan back in the day as well, and Wilt. Only winning titles sates the broader public's palette for rankings after a given threshold; to an extent, that happens all over, but there, it inhibits recognition of player quality.

In Jordan's day, it was "scoring champions don't win titles." Even if he was also as or more efficient than the bigs which were the championed focal scorers of the day, and competing well with Magic and Bird in a variety of ways whilst they were at their apex.

My point exactly. There's no place for GOAT talk even if Jokić indeed does repeat in 2024, which I sincerely doubt, as two rings ain't enough. To get into top 10, he needs threepeat. Look at how many of 'em already are yapping against him and Europeans in general, they will come hard after him if Jokić loses before finals this year.

[dhsilv2]

He will never be GOAT. That doesn't mean he's not a truly transcendent and amazing player.

So he wins the next 4 titles and he just has no case for you? That's a wild statement. We can have a fair discussion on if he's the best player ever. For me right now I think he's the best offensive guy. Him vs MJ or Lebron as I think they were better defenders is interesting. In terms of peaks that is.

But what if he keeps this insanity up till he's 40? I mean..you gonna say if he does this..30+ PER 10+ BPM....0.29+ WS/48 for the next decade we dont' call him goat?

[tsherkin]

My point exactly. There's no place for GOAT talk even if Jokić indeed does repeat in 2024, which I sincerely doubt, as two rings ain't enough. To get into top 10, he needs threepeat. Look at how many of 'em already are yapping against him and Europeans in general, they will come hard after him if Jokić loses before finals this year.

See, I don't agree with that. I think it's about the right time to begin having the discussion because he's showing the potential. And I also don't think he needs a 3-peat just to get into the top 10, since most of the accepted top 10 don't have that anyway.

[p0peye]

My point exactly. There's no place for GOAT talk even if Jokić indeed does repeat in 2024, which I sincerely doubt, as two rings ain't enough. To get into top 10, he needs threepeat. Look at how many of 'em already are yapping against him and Europeans in general, they will come hard after him if Jokić loses before finals this year.

See, I don't agree with that. I think it's about the right time to begin having the discussion because he's showing the potential. And I also don't think he needs a 3-peat just to get into the top 10, since most of the accepted top 10 don't have that anyway.

Threepeat came out wrong, my point was he would need 3rd win as in my top 10 most of them have 4+ rings: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Steph. Bird has 3 and Hakeem and Wilt are only with 2.

[tsherkin]

My point exactly. There's no place for GOAT talk even if Jokić indeed does repeat in 2024, which I sincerely doubt, as two rings ain't enough. To get into top 10, he needs threepeat. Look at how many of 'em already are yapping against him and Europeans in general, they will come hard after him if Jokić loses before finals this year.

See, I don't agree with that. I think it's about the right time to begin having the discussion because he's showing the potential. And I also don't think he needs a 3-peat just to get into the top 10, since most of the accepted top 10 don't have that anyway.

Threepeat came out wrong, my point was he would need 3rd win as in my top 10 most of them have 4+ rings: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Steph. Bird has 3 and Hakeem and Wilt are only with 2.

Oh, 3 titles? Yeah, that's a little more reasonable an expectation, sure.

[CS707]

Depends on how he plays. Jokic has been one of the most consistent performers in the history of the sport to the point where most people don't even consider it possible that he could play bad. If Jokic puts up a solid 25/12/9 on a PER of 30 and his team looses because the rest of the nuggets shoot <40%, i doubt anyone will care.

Plenty of talking heads were disparaging him for lacking playoff success before Nuggets won, no matter how he actually performed himself.

Yeah, mouthpieces generally do that. It's convenient to rip on performers who don't have the team context to have the team-based results. They did it to Jordan back in the day as well, and Wilt. Only winning titles sates the broader public's palette for rankings after a given threshold; to an extent, that happens all over, but there, it inhibits recognition of player quality.

In Jordan's day, it was "scoring champions don't win titles." Even if he was also as or more efficient than the bigs which were the championed focal scorers of the day, and competing well with Magic and Bird in a variety of ways whilst they were at their apex.

I think it depends on the context of the conversation. If you’re saying team success shouldn’t weigh heavily when you’re talking about someone’s place amongst the absolute best of the best, I’d disagree. At that level it matters and Denver flopping in the playoffs would stall his momentum IMO. It’s not something I hope for or expect to happen but being a consistent factor in the postseason has been the standard for as long as I can remember.

[JordansBulls]

Jokic's road to Greatness (GOAT Level)

2024 NBA PLAYOFFS

Beat Lakers (LeBron/AD) in first round
Beat Wolves (Edwards/Gobert) or Suns (KD/Booker) in West Semis
Beat Thunder (SGA) in West Finals
Beat Celtics (Tatum/Holiday)

2024 OLYMPICS

Beat Team USA (all names above, except Gobert for France and SGA for Canada, which Serbia can meet on their way to the gold medal)

i know, i know, it's tough to repeat in the NBA unless have a clearcut dynasty roster (Nuggets have yet to prove that) and the road to the gold medal in France is tough.

But if Jokic can accomplish both, winning the NBA title and winning the gold this 2024, does he jump some all time greats and maybe even Top 5? Top 3? Less?

Will be tough when he already lost with HCA already Dame.

[Mephariel]

He will never be GOAT. That doesn't mean he's not a truly transcendent and amazing player.

"Never" is a long time when so much of his relevant career remains. It isn't unfair to suggest he very likely won't, since we really only seem to have that argument about once every decade to decade and a half. The argument was largely Wilt/Russell, then snuck in Kareem, then basically MJ, and post MJ we didn't have much talk until later on with Lebron. It takes quite a lot to get there, but like.. the kind of conversation we're having around Joker in his 9th season is fairly similar to the talk around Jordan as he went into the playoffs in his 7th season... "incredible stats and impact; needs more rings." Jordan didn't cement anything until he started winning, and that took team context around him.

We shall see what Jokic does over the next little while, but ruling it out is at odds with how GOAT-level careers actually unfold across basketball history. It would be heartily premature at this point to rule him out conclusively.

I wouldn't rule him out, but he will have to win several more championships to even be considered in the conversation. Jordan is an iconic basketball player, with skills and athleticism that embodies the ultimate player. Jokic will never be iconic. Whether that is fair or not, it will play into the discussion.

[tsherkin]

I think it depends on the context of the conversation. If you’re saying team success shouldn’t weigh heavily when you’re talking about someone’s place amongst the absolute best of the best, I’d disagree.

Nope, we're on the same page there. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't stop the conversation from starting for guys today, because it didn't stop the conversation from starting earlier in league history. People were talking about the potential for Jordan, for example, and Kareem, both well before their resumes lined up. No reason to rule out conversation of Jokic because he doesn't have the full complement of titles yet, you know?

I wouldn't rule him out, but he will have to win several more championships to even be considered in the conversation. Jordan is an iconic basketball player, with skills and athleticism that embodies the ultimate player. Jokic will never be iconic. Whether that is fair or not, it will play into the discussion.

Sure, people are beholden to narrative more than logic, that's known. But not everyone factors popularity into their GOAT discussion, especially here. I don't particularly care, for example, how "iconic" someone was in terms of their ability to compete for that ranking, and I certainly don't think not being iconic should interrupt our ability to discuss someone potentially being on the path to that ranking.

[pwayknicks]

And if he loses to the lakers, or doesn’t get out the west is it a stain like lbj loss to Dallas ?


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[KembaWalker]

And if he loses to the lakers, or doesn’t get out the west is it a stain like lbj loss to Dallas ?


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It absolutely would be a major point of discussion if he choked to the Lakers this year if he went on to have a career that put him in the GOAT convo and the degree of nitpicks you get to in that space

It would of course also depend on his personal performance, if he plays like straight dog water and the loss is squarely his fault like LeBron/Dallas that’s something else than if they just lose cause the Lakers go nuclear but he’s still dominant

[MavsDirk41]

Highly unlikely but lets see how the rest of his career plays out