No free pass for Lebron

[prophet_of_rage]

And you see the fatal glow in your approach. The fact that Lebron plays in a tougher league doesn't mean that MJ wouldn't be the same player in the league. It means that team success is likely to be worse the tougher the league you are in.

That's still a hypothetical. You're assuming a prime MJ with a legit supporting cast wouldn't win as much in today's era. You don't know that. Nobody does. Would he win 6? More than 6? Less than 6? More than Lebron? Who knows, there's too many variables. In his prime would he have beaten Pop/Duncan Spurs? Shaq/Kobe? Is Phil with MJ or Shaq/Kobe? Are Shaq/Kobe even as good without Phil? I doubt it. Would the Bulls have adapted to today's play style? This is all speculative, which is fun to entertain, but can't be seriously used as evidence for arguing a player being better than another because it's not really provable. Would MJ be threatened by 21 year old Paul George, DeFrozan, baby version Isiah Thomas, under drinking age Tatum and and Brown? I doubt that...

You can pretend the Bulls weren't the 2017 Warriors but they were for their era. The 80s trams had broken up and the salary cap rules meant every team had two stars and a bunch of role players. Thanks to MJ and Pippen signing bad deals they were able to add at various times Rodman, Grant, Kukoc and Harper.

If the Bulls were like 17 GS, it's because MJ made them that monster team. It wasn't because they had such a flooded unfair advantage of talent. You just said it, every team had two stars like the Bulls so what exactly made the Bulls so demonstratively overloaded outside of MJ's greatness? Rodman was a cast off after his prime who was almost blackballed out the league. Even if he was this "unfair advantage" MJ had a dynasty without him and started by beating the team Rodman was on while he was in his actual prime, so it wasn't like MJ "needed him". Harper was a defense only guard averaging 7PPG. Kerr was a sharpshooter. Kurkoc was a good bench player. Were the Bulls the only team in the league with the "luxury" of a shooter and a good bench player? No, they weren't. Smartly constructed? Yes. Overly stacked ala 17 GS? Lol, no.

The Bulls won 55 games with Pippen and Grant. Two All-Stars. You couldn't keep a team like that together today.

And what was that team doing after Pippen quit on them? 26-29 at the AS break, struggling to stay .500 just to go 13-4 after MJ came back to close out the season after they got the leadership and spark that they definitely needed. Grant was an All Star one time his whole life and it wasn't with MJ. MJ only had 1 All Star his whole career for only 6 seasons. That's a fact.But despite that, since when could you not keep a team with 2-3 All Stars today? Have you been living under a rock? They've been around almost every corner for the last 15 years.

And what happened to that leadership and spark when they met Horace Grant and Orlando in the playoffs? Jordan didn't elevate then, did he? No, he had to get Rodman and Grant had to get injured for him to advance past Orlando.

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[svart]

One thing I’ve noticed people do without fail is lionize the guys Lebron loses to.

Everyone knows Duncan was an ATG, but he also had a lot of help. Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, great role players, the greatest coach of all time… You look at PC board top 100 list and Duncan is now all the way up to 5th all time. Sorry, TD isn’t the 5th greatest player ever.

Lebron loses to Warriors and now people think 6’6 Draymond is the greatest defender ever. Yeah, he’s really good. Is he the GOAT defender? NO!! He’s not even on the top 10 list! Also, small ball Warriors are the GOAT team because Lebron lost to them.

Lebron can’t beat Jokic and so now Jokic is the best player since Jordan and people are arguing about whether his peak is the GOAT peak. Jokic is amazing. Is he the greatest player of all time? NO!!

I’m surprised Lebron fans aren’t claiming Tyson Chandler is the greatest defensive big just because Lebron lost to him.

This is one of the ways we do give Lebron a free pass. Not everyone needs to be the greatest just because Lebron lost to them.

Warriors WERE unbeatable when healthy in the KD years, drayomond is an all time great defender and jokic is the best player in the league these last years.

And guess what? None of this have anything to do with Lebron. You guys just see what you want to see......

[prophet_of_rage]

One thing I’ve noticed people do without fail is lionize the guys Lebron loses to.

Everyone knows Duncan was an ATG, but he also had a lot of help. Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, great role players, the greatest coach of all time… You look at PC board top 100 list and Duncan is now all the way up to 5th all time. Sorry, TD isn’t the 5th greatest player ever.

Lebron loses to Warriors and now people think 6’6 Draymond is the greatest defender ever. Yeah, he’s really good. Is he the GOAT defender? NO!! He’s not even on the top 10 list! Also, small ball Warriors are the GOAT team because Lebron lost to them.

Lebron can’t beat Jokic and so now Jokic is the best player since Jordan and people are arguing about whether his peak is the GOAT peak. Jokic is amazing. Is he the greatest player of all time? NO!!

I’m surprised Lebron fans aren’t claiming Tyson Chandler is the greatest defensive big just because Lebron lost to him.

This is one of the ways we do give Lebron a free pass. Not everyone needs to be the greatest just because Lebron lost to them.

Warriors WERE unbeatable when healthy in the KD years, drayomond is an all time great defender and jokic is the best player in the league these last years.

And guess what? None of this have anything to do with Lebron. You guys just see what you want to see......

The problem is these things suggest that the league is better than when MJ played (which it is). So you have to denigrate them all.

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[VanWest82]

One thing I’ve noticed people do without fail is lionize the guys Lebron loses to.

Everyone knows Duncan was an ATG, but he also had a lot of help. Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, great role players, the greatest coach of all time… You look at PC board top 100 list and Duncan is now all the way up to 5th all time. Sorry, TD isn’t the 5th greatest player ever.

Lebron loses to Warriors and now people think 6’6 Draymond is the greatest defender ever. Yeah, he’s really good. Is he the GOAT defender? NO!! He’s not even on the top 10 list! Also, small ball Warriors are the GOAT team because Lebron lost to them.

Lebron can’t beat Jokic and so now Jokic is the best player since Jordan and people are arguing about whether his peak is the GOAT peak. Jokic is amazing. Is he the greatest player of all time? NO!!

I’m surprised Lebron fans aren’t claiming Tyson Chandler is the greatest defensive big just because Lebron lost to him.

This is one of the ways we do give Lebron a free pass. Not everyone needs to be the greatest just because Lebron lost to them.

Warriors WERE unbeatable when healthy in the KD years, drayomond is an all time great defender and jokic is the best player in the league these last years.

And guess what? None of this have anything to do with Lebron. You guys just see what you want to see......

Warriors were down 3-2 in the WCF in 2018 but prevailed in large part due to a poorly timed hamstring injury to Chris Paul. They also played in perhaps the weakest era for bigs in the history of the sport. The fact that skilled guys like Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis have since come along and are dominating the league again is evidence that small ball dominance was a temporary thing that existed mainly because the skill transition that transformed the league in the 2010s hadn't fully taken place among very large humans.

Draymond being an ATG defender is arguable but the claim was GOAT status, or at least GOAT non-big status. I certainly don't think his man defense is on that level, and would Draymond have been nearly as effective in any other non-small ball era? I tend to think no.

What makes the things I listed (in addtion to many other examples) about Lebron is the way his fans consistently overrate them in order to prop up Lebron.

[MavsDirk41]

And you see the fatal glow in your approach. The fact that Lebron plays in a tougher league doesn't mean that MJ wouldn't be the same player in the league. It means that team success is likely to be worse the tougher the league you are in.

That's still a hypothetical. You're assuming a prime MJ with a legit supporting cast wouldn't win as much in today's era. You don't know that. Nobody does. Would he win 6? More than 6? Less than 6? More than Lebron? Who knows, there's too many variables. In his prime would he have beaten Pop/Duncan Spurs? Shaq/Kobe? Is Phil with MJ or Shaq/Kobe? Are Shaq/Kobe even as good without Phil? I doubt it. Would the Bulls have adapted to today's play style? This is all speculative, which is fun to entertain, but can't be seriously used as evidence for arguing a player being better than another because it's not really provable. Would MJ be threatened by 21 year old Paul George, DeFrozan, baby version Isiah Thomas, under drinking age Tatum and and Brown? I doubt that...

You can pretend the Bulls weren't the 2017 Warriors but they were for their era. The 80s trams had broken up and the salary cap rules meant every team had two stars and a bunch of role players. Thanks to MJ and Pippen signing bad deals they were able to add at various times Rodman, Grant, Kukoc and Harper.

If the Bulls were like 17 GS, it's because MJ made them that monster team. It wasn't because they had such a flooded unfair advantage of talent. You just said it, every team had two stars like the Bulls so what exactly made the Bulls so demonstratively overloaded outside of MJ's greatness? Rodman was a cast off after his prime who was almost blackballed out the league. Even if he was this "unfair advantage" MJ had a dynasty without him and started by beating the team Rodman was on while he was in his actual prime, so it wasn't like MJ "needed him". Harper was a defense only guard averaging 7PPG. Kerr was a sharpshooter. Kurkoc was a good bench player. Were the Bulls the only team in the league with the "luxury" of a shooter and a good bench player? No, they weren't. Smartly constructed? Yes. Overly stacked ala 17 GS? Lol, no.

The Bulls won 55 games with Pippen and Grant. Two All-Stars. You couldn't keep a team like that together today.

And what was that team doing after Pippen quit on them? 26-29 at the AS break, struggling to stay .500 just to go 13-4 after MJ came back to close out the season after they got the leadership and spark that they definitely needed. Grant was an All Star one time his whole life and it wasn't with MJ. MJ only had 1 All Star his whole career for only 6 seasons. That's a fact.But despite that, since when could you not keep a team with 2-3 All Stars today? Have you been living under a rock? They've been around almost every corner for the last 15 years.

And what happened to that leadership and spark when they met Horace Grant and Orlando in the playoffs? Jordan didn't elevate then, did he? No, he had to get Rodman and Grant had to get injured for him to advance past Orlando.

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Ummm the Bulls had Toni Kukoc at the power forward position….good player…but do you remember Kukoc as a guy that was battling on the boards and was thought of as a good defender? Kukoc was a guard in a big body. Maybe the Bulls wanted a power forward who was an actual power forward instead of Kukoc starting at the 4? And you mentioned Ron Harper? Harper was waaayyy past his prime when he joined the Bulls. The Bulls werent winning anything without Jordan.

[web123888]

LeBron does not play in a tough league, he’s played in a very weak era for most of his career and outside a few of those Warriors teams there’s nothing special about any of the competition he’s faced compared to 80’s, 90’s and 00’s greats. He’s also played in an incredibly weak East for basically his entire prime. 2020 Heat were also by far the weakest Finals opponent in recent memory. LeBron would have zero chance of being the best player in the 90’s or getting as easy of a Finals draw as he did in 2020 back then.

[prophet_of_rage]

That's still a hypothetical. You're assuming a prime MJ with a legit supporting cast wouldn't win as much in today's era. You don't know that. Nobody does. Would he win 6? More than 6? Less than 6? More than Lebron? Who knows, there's too many variables. In his prime would he have beaten Pop/Duncan Spurs? Shaq/Kobe? Is Phil with MJ or Shaq/Kobe? Are Shaq/Kobe even as good without Phil? I doubt it. Would the Bulls have adapted to today's play style? This is all speculative, which is fun to entertain, but can't be seriously used as evidence for arguing a player being better than another because it's not really provable. Would MJ be threatened by 21 year old Paul George, DeFrozan, baby version Isiah Thomas, under drinking age Tatum and and Brown? I doubt that...


If the Bulls were like 17 GS, it's because MJ made them that monster team. It wasn't because they had such a flooded unfair advantage of talent. You just said it, every team had two stars like the Bulls so what exactly made the Bulls so demonstratively overloaded outside of MJ's greatness? Rodman was a cast off after his prime who was almost blackballed out the league. Even if he was this "unfair advantage" MJ had a dynasty without him and started by beating the team Rodman was on while he was in his actual prime, so it wasn't like MJ "needed him". Harper was a defense only guard averaging 7PPG. Kerr was a sharpshooter. Kurkoc was a good bench player. Were the Bulls the only team in the league with the "luxury" of a shooter and a good bench player? No, they weren't. Smartly constructed? Yes. Overly stacked ala 17 GS? Lol, no.



And what was that team doing after Pippen quit on them? 26-29 at the AS break, struggling to stay .500 just to go 13-4 after MJ came back to close out the season after they got the leadership and spark that they definitely needed. Grant was an All Star one time his whole life and it wasn't with MJ. MJ only had 1 All Star his whole career for only 6 seasons. That's a fact.But despite that, since when could you not keep a team with 2-3 All Stars today? Have you been living under a rock? They've been around almost every corner for the last 15 years.

And what happened to that leadership and spark when they met Horace Grant and Orlando in the playoffs? Jordan didn't elevate then, did he? No, he had to get Rodman and Grant had to get injured for him to advance past Orlando.

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Ummm the Bulls had Toni Kukoc at the power forward position….good player…but do you remember Kukoc as a guy that was battling on the boards and was thought of as a good defender? Kukoc was a guard in a big body. Maybe the Bulls wanted a power forward who was an actual power forward instead of Kukoc starting at the 4? And you mentioned Ron Harper? Harper was waaayyy past his prime when he joined the Bulls. The Bulls werent winning anything without Jordan.

You are proving team matters.

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[ShootersShoot]

LeBron does not play in a tough league, he’s played in a very weak era for most of his career and outside a few of those Warriors teams there’s nothing special about any of the competition he’s faced compared to 80’s, 90’s and 00’s greats. He’s also played in an incredibly weak East for basically his entire prime. 2020 Heat were also by far the weakest Finals opponent in recent memory. LeBron would have zero chance of being the best player in the 90’s or getting as easy of a Finals draw as he did in 2020 back then.

I agree 2020 was probably one of the easiest path to a chip in recent memory. Tbf, I think the 08 celts, 16 warriors, 17/18 warriors, 2011 mavs, and the various spurs teams bron faced could fare pretty well historically. The 12 thunder were young but still an incredible team with tons of talent.

[MavsDirk41]

And what happened to that leadership and spark when they met Horace Grant and Orlando in the playoffs? Jordan didn't elevate then, did he? No, he had to get Rodman and Grant had to get injured for him to advance past Orlando.

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Ummm the Bulls had Toni Kukoc at the power forward position….good player…but do you remember Kukoc as a guy that was battling on the boards and was thought of as a good defender? Kukoc was a guard in a big body. Maybe the Bulls wanted a power forward who was an actual power forward instead of Kukoc starting at the 4? And you mentioned Ron Harper? Harper was waaayyy past his prime when he joined the Bulls. The Bulls werent winning anything without Jordan.

You are proving team matters.

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Yea of course! Name a superstar who won a championship by himself. Point was, Kukoc was out of position as a full time power forward and Harper was a role player for Chicago. Bulls traded an average center and 2nd round pick to replace Grant with Rodman. Smart move by Bulls management. Kukoc if i remember was a 2nd round pick too.

[Iwasawitness]

LeBron does not play in a tough league, he’s played in a very weak era for most of his career and outside a few of those Warriors teams there’s nothing special about any of the competition he’s faced compared to 80’s, 90’s and 00’s greats. He’s also played in an incredibly weak East for basically his entire prime. 2020 Heat were also by far the weakest Finals opponent in recent memory. LeBron would have zero chance of being the best player in the 90’s or getting as easy of a Finals draw as he did in 2020 back then.

The anti LeBron takes in this thread have been something else.

[AlexanderRight]

And you see the fatal glow in your approach. The fact that Lebron plays in a tougher league doesn't mean that MJ wouldn't be the same player in the league. It means that team success is likely to be worse the tougher the league you are in.

That's still a hypothetical. You're assuming a prime MJ with a legit supporting cast wouldn't win as much in today's era. You don't know that. Nobody does. Would he win 6? More than 6? Less than 6? More than Lebron? Who knows, there's too many variables. In his prime would he have beaten Pop/Duncan Spurs? Shaq/Kobe? Is Phil with MJ or Shaq/Kobe? Are Shaq/Kobe even as good without Phil? I doubt it. Would the Bulls have adapted to today's play style? This is all speculative, which is fun to entertain, but can't be seriously used as evidence for arguing a player being better than another because it's not really provable. Would MJ be threatened by 21 year old Paul George, DeFrozan, baby version Isiah Thomas, under drinking age Tatum and and Brown? I doubt that...

You can pretend the Bulls weren't the 2017 Warriors but they were for their era. The 80s trams had broken up and the salary cap rules meant every team had two stars and a bunch of role players. Thanks to MJ and Pippen signing bad deals they were able to add at various times Rodman, Grant, Kukoc and Harper.

If the Bulls were like 17 GS, it's because MJ made them that monster team. It wasn't because they had such a flooded unfair advantage of talent. You just said it, every team had two stars like the Bulls so what exactly made the Bulls so demonstratively overloaded outside of MJ's greatness? Rodman was a cast off after his prime who was almost blackballed out the league. Even if he was this "unfair advantage" MJ had a dynasty without him and started by beating the team Rodman was on while he was in his actual prime, so it wasn't like MJ "needed him". Harper was a defense only guard averaging 7PPG. Kerr was a sharpshooter. Kurkoc was a good bench player. Were the Bulls the only team in the league with the "luxury" of a shooter and a good bench player? No, they weren't. Smartly constructed? Yes. Overly stacked ala 17 GS? Lol, no.

The Bulls won 55 games with Pippen and Grant. Two All-Stars. You couldn't keep a team like that together today.

And what was that team doing after Pippen quit on them? 26-29 at the AS break, struggling to stay .500 just to go 13-4 after MJ came back to close out the season after they got the leadership and spark that they definitely needed. Grant was an All Star one time his whole life and it wasn't with MJ. MJ only had 1 All Star his whole career for only 6 seasons. That's a fact.But despite that, since when could you not keep a team with 2-3 All Stars today? Have you been living under a rock? They've been around almost every corner for the last 15 years.

Are you pretending that the Bulls the following year didn't lose Horace Grant?

And if hypothetically MJ and Co could.have matched their performance in today's era there is no basis to discount what Russell could have done had he been transported holus bolus to the 80s. You simply cannot discount Russell and his titles.

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I'm not discrediting Russell's titles. I'm pointing out that Russell was the 3rd and 4th option on offense on his own team. That matters when you're talking best player in history. A quarter of his teammates made the HOF. That matters. His only competition was 7 other teams. That definitely matters if you're just counting rings. He was an average at best offensive player and arguably wasn't the best player of HIS OWN era. Your arguments against MJ is a hypothetical placing him OUTSIDE his era.

I don't have to go into make believe land and say "what if he played today?" to bring a fair argument against Russell. There's a valid case of him not being best player of his own decade. Your case against MJ is pure speculation and assumption. Do you see the difference?

And talking about 95 is dumb. The man played 16 games in two years. Nobody should kill him cause he lost in 6 games to a Finals team after sitting out damn near 2 years. Him sweeping Orlando the very next year more than made up for that.

[nbafan38]

The fact Lebron is even still playing is an accomplishment. Nothing that happens at this point can diminish his career imo and this is coming from someone who doesn't even particularly like a lot of the stuff Lebron does.

[svart]

One thing I’ve noticed people do without fail is lionize the guys Lebron loses to.

Everyone knows Duncan was an ATG, but he also had a lot of help. Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, great role players, the greatest coach of all time… You look at PC board top 100 list and Duncan is now all the way up to 5th all time. Sorry, TD isn’t the 5th greatest player ever.

Lebron loses to Warriors and now people think 6’6 Draymond is the greatest defender ever. Yeah, he’s really good. Is he the GOAT defender? NO!! He’s not even on the top 10 list! Also, small ball Warriors are the GOAT team because Lebron lost to them.

Lebron can’t beat Jokic and so now Jokic is the best player since Jordan and people are arguing about whether his peak is the GOAT peak. Jokic is amazing. Is he the greatest player of all time? NO!!

I’m surprised Lebron fans aren’t claiming Tyson Chandler is the greatest defensive big just because Lebron lost to him.

This is one of the ways we do give Lebron a free pass. Not everyone needs to be the greatest just because Lebron lost to them.

Warriors WERE unbeatable when healthy in the KD years, drayomond is an all time great defender and jokic is the best player in the league these last years.

And guess what? None of this have anything to do with Lebron. You guys just see what you want to see......

Warriors were down 3-2 in the WCF in 2018 but prevailed in large part due to a poorly timed hamstring injury to Chris Paul. They also played in perhaps the weakest era for bigs in the history of the sport. The fact that skilled guys like Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis have since come along and are dominating the league again is evidence that small ball dominance was a temporary thing that existed mainly because the skill transition that transformed the league in the 2010s hadn't fully taken place among very large humans.

Draymond being an ATG defender is arguable but the claim was GOAT status, or at least GOAT non-big status. I certainly don't think his man defense is on that level, and would Draymond have been nearly as effective in any other non-small ball era? I tend to think no.

What makes the things I listed (in addtion to many other examples) about Lebron is the way his fans consistently overrate them in order to prop up Lebron.

You know what people tend to forget about that series? At 2-1 for the dubs one of their starters went down as well, Iguodala. So please read again what i wrote.

[prophet_of_rage]

That's still a hypothetical. You're assuming a prime MJ with a legit supporting cast wouldn't win as much in today's era. You don't know that. Nobody does. Would he win 6? More than 6? Less than 6? More than Lebron? Who knows, there's too many variables. In his prime would he have beaten Pop/Duncan Spurs? Shaq/Kobe? Is Phil with MJ or Shaq/Kobe? Are Shaq/Kobe even as good without Phil? I doubt it. Would the Bulls have adapted to today's play style? This is all speculative, which is fun to entertain, but can't be seriously used as evidence for arguing a player being better than another because it's not really provable. Would MJ be threatened by 21 year old Paul George, DeFrozan, baby version Isiah Thomas, under drinking age Tatum and and Brown? I doubt that...


If the Bulls were like 17 GS, it's because MJ made them that monster team. It wasn't because they had such a flooded unfair advantage of talent. You just said it, every team had two stars like the Bulls so what exactly made the Bulls so demonstratively overloaded outside of MJ's greatness? Rodman was a cast off after his prime who was almost blackballed out the league. Even if he was this "unfair advantage" MJ had a dynasty without him and started by beating the team Rodman was on while he was in his actual prime, so it wasn't like MJ "needed him". Harper was a defense only guard averaging 7PPG. Kerr was a sharpshooter. Kurkoc was a good bench player. Were the Bulls the only team in the league with the "luxury" of a shooter and a good bench player? No, they weren't. Smartly constructed? Yes. Overly stacked ala 17 GS? Lol, no.



And what was that team doing after Pippen quit on them? 26-29 at the AS break, struggling to stay .500 just to go 13-4 after MJ came back to close out the season after they got the leadership and spark that they definitely needed. Grant was an All Star one time his whole life and it wasn't with MJ. MJ only had 1 All Star his whole career for only 6 seasons. That's a fact.But despite that, since when could you not keep a team with 2-3 All Stars today? Have you been living under a rock? They've been around almost every corner for the last 15 years.

Are you pretending that the Bulls the following year didn't lose Horace Grant?

And if hypothetically MJ and Co could.have matched their performance in today's era there is no basis to discount what Russell could have done had he been transported holus bolus to the 80s. You simply cannot discount Russell and his titles.

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I'm not discrediting Russell's titles. I'm pointing out that Russell was the 3rd and 4th option on offense on his own team. That matters when you're talking best player in history. A quarter of his teammates made the HOF. That matters. His only competition was 7 other teams. That definitely matters if you're just counting rings. He was an average at best offensive player and arguably wasn't the best player of HIS OWN era. Your arguments against MJ is a hypothetical placing him OUTSIDE his era.

I don't have to go into make believe land and say "what if he played today?" to bring a fair argument against Russell. There's a valid case of him not being best player of his own decade. Your case against MJ is pure speculation and assumption. Do you see the difference?

And talking about 95 is dumb. The man played 16 games in two years. Nobody should kill him cause he lost in 6 games to a Finals team after sitting out damn near 2 years. Him sweeping Orlando the very next year more than made up for that.

I'm not saying what if MJ played today. I'm saying the league today won't allow for a team to go 6-0 because max contracts exist. You won't have an underpaid MJ and Scottie. Just like Jordan's league won't allow for 11 rings because there were more teams and deeper talent.

It is useless comparing eras but unfair to simply dismiss them.

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[ckman]

Ummm the Bulls had Toni Kukoc at the power forward position….good player…but do you remember Kukoc as a guy that was battling on the boards and was thought of as a good defender? Kukoc was a guard in a big body. Maybe the Bulls wanted a power forward who was an actual power forward instead of Kukoc starting at the 4? And you mentioned Ron Harper? Harper was waaayyy past his prime when he joined the Bulls. The Bulls werent winning anything without Jordan.

You are proving team matters.

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Yea of course! Name a superstar who won a championship by himself. Point was, Kukoc was out of position as a full time power forward and Harper was a role player for Chicago. Bulls traded an average center and 2nd round pick to replace Grant with Rodman. Smart move by Bulls management. Kukoc if i remember was a 2nd round pick too.

Lebron. That's what some of his fans think anyway. To them every time his team won , it's because he carry the team, elevate the play of his teammates. Every time they lost, it's because his teammates suck, he need more help .

[Gregoire]

I was about to go a different direction but let me ask, what professional athlete isnt a ring chaser? What is a ring chaser since yall said he went to LA to do movies. Im confused.

Jordan (stayed in Bulls then went to Wizards without minimal odds to win the ring), Russell, Curry, Bird, Magic, Kobe... I need to continue? All great players (its majority) who didnt changed teams every 3-4 years and/or retired early. Yes, there are Durant, Wilt, Shaq.. but even here LeBron is standing out.

So you value a player staying with one team. Kobe actually tried to get traded but we can act as though you didnt know that.

As a minority, i give no fux about a player being loyal to a franchise or business. In fact, after seeing the crap they did to I.Thomas and others, i think its stupid. We can differ on that because i am guessing we are from different perspectives.

You ignored Brons move to LA because it didnt fit your narrative. I caught that.

Bron moving to LA is brutal ring chasing... Which is failed

[Heej]

Jordan (stayed in Bulls then went to Wizards without minimal odds to win the ring), Russell, Curry, Bird, Magic, Kobe... I need to continue? All great players (its majority) who didnt changed teams every 3-4 years and/or retired early. Yes, there are Durant, Wilt, Shaq.. but even here LeBron is standing out.

So you value a player staying with one team. Kobe actually tried to get traded but we can act as though you didnt know that.

As a minority, i give no fux about a player being loyal to a franchise or business. In fact, after seeing the crap they did to I.Thomas and others, i think its stupid. We can differ on that because i am guessing we are from different perspectives.

You ignored Brons move to LA because it didnt fit your narrative. I caught that.

Bron moving to LA is brutal ring chasing... Which is failed

If joining a 35 win team by yourself is ringchasing then blowing up my PMs and quoting me in your sig because I stopped replying must be glazing.

[DaPessimist]

He definitely gets a pass. This is all just gravy for LeBron.

[RHODEY]

He definitely gets a pass. This is all just gravy for LeBron.

Gravy on top of a veggie burger.

[LaLover11]

LeBron does not play in a tough league, he’s played in a very weak era for most of his career and outside a few of those Warriors teams there’s nothing special about any of the competition he’s faced compared to 80’s, 90’s and 00’s greats. He’s also played in an incredibly weak East for basically his entire prime. 2020 Heat were also by far the weakest Finals opponent in recent memory. LeBron would have zero chance of being the best player in the 90’s or getting as easy of a Finals draw as he did in 2020 back then.

The anti LeBron takes in this thread have been something else.

They secretly cheer for him whenever nobody is looking
Lmao