Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[Jaykoolzboy]

The best player is a bit outstretched (however I wont disagree with you, Jokic is that good, the best offensive team player for sure)

We have several candidates

1. LBJ
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

in the conversation

4. Curry
5. Kobe


If Jokic can win 5 championships or more with similar performance , yes he is the best player since Jordan (alone with LBJ)

If he can win 4 championships or more , he will surpass Shaq and TD

If he can win 3 championships or more, i will have him ahead of Curry and Kobe.


sole championship don't really have a strong argument being better than LBJ, TD, Shaq, Kobe or Curry.

[dhsilv2]

If Jokic can win 5 championships or more with similar performance , yes he is the best player since Jordan (alone with LBJ)

If he can win 4 championships or more , he will surpass Shaq and TD

If he can win 3 championships or more, i will have him ahead of Curry and Kobe.

Peak = 1 season which is the topic here. You can make a GREAT argument that MJ, Lebron, Curry and even Duncan didn't win a title in their peak seasons. But if you're using peak in a traditional sense, it's 1 year, you can't win more than 1 title.

[Duke4life831]

The best player is a bit outstretched (however I wont disagree with you, Jokic is that good, the best offensive team player for sure)

We have several candidates

1. LBJ
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

in the conversation

4. Curry
5. Kobe


If Jokic can win 5 championships or more with similar performance , yes he is the best player since Jordan (alone with LBJ)

If he can win 4 championships or more , he will surpass Shaq and TD

If he can win 3 championships or more, i will have him ahead of Curry and Kobe.


sole championship don't really have a strong argument being better than LBJ, TD, Shaq, Kobe or Curry.

I just think this is a very flawed way to look at this. How many All-NBA and future HOFs did those guys play with compared to Jokic?

Does Jokic all of a sudden become a better individual player if he took his talent to say Dallas to go team up with Luka and Kyrie?

Shaq and Kobe got to play together. And went on to win other rings while playing with other future HOFs. Duncan was surrounded by multiple future HOFs almost every year of his career. LeBron left Cleveland to go join multiple HOFs in their career. Curry played with multiple HOFs.

And to be clear I’m not saying any of this to downgrade any of these guys. But using just championships won as the main barometer is such a flawed way to look at it.

[SeanieWard]

I love Jokic. Been a fan of him before his ascension but Jokic is not better than 2011-12 LeBron James. LeBron's offense and impact was just as good as Jokic's and his defense was good enough to be in the conversation for DPOY. Something Jokic simply cannot do. I get it though. Jokic is good enough to be in the discussion for one of the best players in the modern era but I wouldn't rank him above LeBron. We will be discussing if he's better than Shaq soon tho if we aren't already

[dhsilv2]

The best player is a bit outstretched (however I wont disagree with you, Jokic is that good, the best offensive team player for sure)

We have several candidates

1. LBJ
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

in the conversation

4. Curry
5. Kobe


If Jokic can win 5 championships or more with similar performance , yes he is the best player since Jordan (alone with LBJ)

If he can win 4 championships or more , he will surpass Shaq and TD

If he can win 3 championships or more, i will have him ahead of Curry and Kobe.


sole championship don't really have a strong argument being better than LBJ, TD, Shaq, Kobe or Curry.

I just think this is a very flawed way to look at this. How many All-NBA and future HOFs did those guys play with compared to Jokic?

Does Jokic all of a sudden become a better individual player if he took his talent to say Dallas to go team up with Luka and Kyrie?

Shaq and Kobe got to play together. And went on to win other rings while playing with other future HOFs. Duncan was surrounded by multiple future HOFs almost every year of his career. LeBron left Cleveland to go join multiple HOFs in their career. Curry played with multiple HOFs.

And to be clear I’m not saying any of this to downgrade any of these guys. But using just championships won as the main barometer is such a flawed way to look at it.

I know people are tired of this, but it just has to be said again. What player in NBA history has played 9 years without another allstar on their roster in one of those years? People can talk all they want about "playoff Murray" but this is unprecedented. And btw..no all defensive team selection either. I get that he's got better teammates than say early 00's KG or similar era Elton Brand on the Clippers. But 9 years without another allstar is something really unique in NBA history.

[lessthanjake]

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

Those numbers regarding Gordon and KCP on the court without Jokic are based on a grand total of 134 minutes. It’s a meaninglessly small sample size.

More generally, Jokic pretty consistently has positive defensive impact when controlling for lineups. The Engelmann 1997-2024 RAPM (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/edit#gid=0) has Jokic as a strong defender. It doesn’t have him at the level of elite big men defenders like Gobert, Garnett, Draymond, etc. But it has him up there in defensive impact with very good big men defenders and elite wing/guard defenders.

More to my point, the off court sample is trash in Denver.

And RAPM can't adjust for your skills only how impactful you are in your role. Jokic is asked to be in position, use his quick hands to disrupt plays, and rebound. The team covers for the rest.

The bolded seems like a generally accurate breakdown to me. But I think Jokic being in position, using his quick hands to disrupt plays, and being a dominant rebounder is very impactful defensively! As is the fact that he’s very good about getting back in transition—particularly compared to other big men. If you put weak defensive players around him, that’s not going to be enough to make the defense good. He’s not some elite defensive center that makes a defense great on his own. But he has qualities that make it quite possible (and indeed, not all that difficult) to have a good defense with him. The Nuggets have a good defense (not elite, but good), and they don’t actually even have a defensively-slanted roster (Gordon and KCP are defensive-focused, but Murray and Porter Jr. definitely are not, and they don’t have some notable defensive stopper on the bench).

[Duke4life831]

The best player is a bit outstretched (however I wont disagree with you, Jokic is that good, the best offensive team player for sure)

We have several candidates

1. LBJ
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

in the conversation

4. Curry
5. Kobe


If Jokic can win 5 championships or more with similar performance , yes he is the best player since Jordan (alone with LBJ)

If he can win 4 championships or more , he will surpass Shaq and TD

If he can win 3 championships or more, i will have him ahead of Curry and Kobe.


sole championship don't really have a strong argument being better than LBJ, TD, Shaq, Kobe or Curry.

I just think this is a very flawed way to look at this. How many All-NBA and future HOFs did those guys play with compared to Jokic?

Does Jokic all of a sudden become a better individual player if he took his talent to say Dallas to go team up with Luka and Kyrie?

Shaq and Kobe got to play together. And went on to win other rings while playing with other future HOFs. Duncan was surrounded by multiple future HOFs almost every year of his career. LeBron left Cleveland to go join multiple HOFs in their career. Curry played with multiple HOFs.

And to be clear I’m not saying any of this to downgrade any of these guys. But using just championships won as the main barometer is such a flawed way to look at it.

I know people are tired of this, but it just has to be said again. What player in NBA history has played 9 years without another allstar on their roster in one of those years? People can talk all they want about "playoff Murray" but this is unprecedented. And btw..no all defensive team selection either. I get that he's got better teammates than say early 00's KG or similar era Elton Brand on the Clippers. But 9 years without another allstar is something really unique in NBA history.

Yup. And I think the "playoff Murray" thing needs the proper context as well. 1st he's not super consistent, its not one of those things where once the playoffs start, you can just pencil in Murray for a good 25+ point game. Its a rollercoaster with him, the highs are super high, but there are a lot of lows as well. Hell just look at the start of these playoffs, back 2 back games shooting 9-24, has 42 points on 48 shots in the 1st 2 games. But the dude showed up big in the final minute last night. When he shows up, he shows up big. But there are still a good amount of playoff games where Jokic needs to do a ton of heavy lifting because Murray has one of those real bad Murray games.

The other thing is, Jokic doesnt get to coast during the regular season. He cant have stretches of games where he shifts it down to conserve energy and his body for a long playoff run. Playoff Murray doesnt show up too often in the regular season. All these other guys got to do that.

I also want to be crystal clear. This isnt me being a Jokic stan and trying to downgrade his roster to make him look better. Denver has a very well built roster. But we can also sit back and say, his roster looks pretty different than other all time greats.

Magic had Kareem and Worthy.
Bird had McHale and Parish
Jordan had Pippen, then later had Rodman as well
Kobe had Shaq, then had Pau
Shaq had Kobe, then had Wade
LeBron had Wade and Bosh, then Kyrie, then AD

Like you just keep going down the list and there is a difference.

Again I just dont think Jokic becomes a better individual player if he decides to go full diva and demand to go play with Luka and Kyrie. Those 3 and scraps would be better than any team Denver has put together, because that would just be so much freakish individual talent. This is why I think the "how many championships" argument is so flawed.

[picc]

My opinion on peak

Jordan/Lebron
Hakeem/Jokic/Shaq

Jokic offense is as good as anyone and his defense is better than you would think.

But he’s too irrelevant on defense too often to get that extra push for MJ/Bron tier. Just MO.

[NZB2323]

You can’t compare teams in a vacuum today vs 20 years ago.

Cavs went to the finals starting Sasha Pavlich and Drew Gooden. Those guys wouldn’t play in todays nba.

The 2007 pistons wouldnt be good in todays nba but they were clearly better vs their contemporaries than these Lakers are. Those pistons were the 1 seed and won 2 playoff series and were heavy favorites to make the finals. The lakers are a playin team. It’s no discussion.

The Lakers had the best record in the league after the Westbrook trade.

The 1995 Rockets were a 6th seed. Were they a bad team?

The current lakers are going to get swept in the first round. I thought last years lakers were a top 4 team at start of playoffs. This year I think they are a bottom 4 playoff team. I don’t see your point - I’m aware they were in form for a few months late last season.

What do the 1994 rockets have to do with anything? That team won the title. What are you expecting from these Lakers? They are flat lining

My point is the Lakers last year were a good team and better than the 2007 Pistons. You can’t just judge teams by what seed they are and what number seeds they beat. By that logic the 1995 Rockets are the greatest team of all time because they beat a 3rd seed, 2nd seed, 1st seed, and 1st seed, but they’re also the worst champion of all time because they’re a 6th seed.

[NZB2323]

Old? 2007 Pistons got their championship core of Hamilton(28), Billups(30), Prince(26), Sheed(32) and they replaced Ben with Webber(33) and McDyess(32) while LeBron is playing with Pavlovic, Bobbie Gibson and Drew Gooden. LeBron is 11 years older now than their leading scorer that time, Billups lead the Nuggets to WCF 3 years after.

Big 3 Celtics got 4 All-Stars in 2011. When Kobe beat them in 2010 Finals, they are in their prime and when LeBron did, they are washed?

2012 OKC went 12-3 against the Western Powerhouse of defending champs Mavericks, Kobe Lakers and Spurs dynasty. There's a reason they are favored to beat the Heat.

2013 Spurs dynasty got Duncan/Parker/Manu and one of the best perimeter defender in Kawhi plus Green who shot 55% 3PT in Finals while being coached by Pop.

2016 Warriors 73-win squad got 3 All-NBA/All-Star, b2b reigning MVP, 2nd in DPOY and reigning Finals MVP in their squad While Cleveland's 3rd best player Kevin Love got a concussion, missed a game during the Finals series and averaged 8.5 ppg in 46% TS and the Cavs still manage to beat the best team in regular season history coming back from 3-1 deficit, the only time its done in NBA Finals history.


Jokic is a great player, a GOAT candidate in my opinion but so far in his career, he won 1 NBA title by beating the 8th seed, 4th seed, 7th seed and another 8th seed in NBA Finals. He has a great opportunity to amplify his GOAT status by winning the Finals this playoffs against the powerhouse Celtics. Like you said, give it time and lets see if he can win multiple rings at the very least. LeBron carry a lottery team(2007 and 2018 Cavs) to NBA Finals while Jokic got swept by the Suns in 2021 semifinals and lost to 2022 Warriors in the 1st round of playoffs when Jamal was hurt. Let's see in the future if he's capable to carry a lottery squad in the postseason and win more than one playoffs series like LeBron did incase his best teammate got injured again.

2007 was Chris Webber’s last year in the league, and Rasheed was 4 years away from retirement. Ben Wallace was arguably the best player on the 2004 Pistons and they lost him. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng took the 07 Pistons to 6 games; I think Lebron and AD beat them.

2023 Lakers > 2007 Pistons

Why does it matter if LeBron/AD beat the 2007 Pistons? He's not playing with Davis that time, he played with Big Z, Gooden, Gibson and Pavlovic. Their main championship core Sheed/Billups/Hamilton/Prince averaged 29 years old in 2007, even without Ben they keep winning until Cavs beat them. LeBron also doesn't have a teammate who averaged 32.5 ppg like Jokic have in 2023 against the Lakers. 2007 Cavs should be one of the worst team that season without LeBron. They have no business to beat that Pistons squad unless LeBron go supernova which he did scoring Cleveland's last 25 points in Game 5.

I’m arguing with the claim that the 2007 Pistons are better than any team that Jokic has beat in the playoffs.

The 2006 Pistons won 64 games, were 2nd in Net Rtg and had Ben Wallace. The 2007 Pistons won 53 games, were 6th in Net Rtg, and had no Ben Wallace. The 2023 Lakers had the best record in the league after the Westbrook trade.

[E-Balla]

Those numbers regarding Gordon and KCP on the court without Jokic are based on a grand total of 134 minutes. It’s a meaninglessly small sample size.

More generally, Jokic pretty consistently has positive defensive impact when controlling for lineups. The Engelmann 1997-2024 RAPM (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/edit#gid=0) has Jokic as a strong defender. It doesn’t have him at the level of elite big men defenders like Gobert, Garnett, Draymond, etc. But it has him up there in defensive impact with very good big men defenders and elite wing/guard defenders.

More to my point, the off court sample is trash in Denver.

And RAPM can't adjust for your skills only how impactful you are in your role. Jokic is asked to be in position, use his quick hands to disrupt plays, and rebound. The team covers for the rest.

The bolded seems like a generally accurate breakdown to me. But I think Jokic being in position, using his quick hands to disrupt plays, and being a dominant rebounder is very impactful defensively! As is the fact that he’s very good about getting back in transition—particularly compared to other big men. If you put weak defensive players around him, that’s not going to be enough to make the defense good. He’s not some elite defensive center that makes a defense great on his own. But he has qualities that make it quite possible (and indeed, not all that difficult) to have a good defense with him. The Nuggets have a good defense (not elite, but good), and they don’t actually even have a defensively-slanted roster (Gordon and KCP are defensive-focused, but Murray and Porter Jr. definitely are not, and they don’t have some notable defensive stopper on the bench).

Agree with everything but this. Peyton Watson is amazing. Probably the best defensive wing in the league at the rim and one of the best I've ever seen easily.

[holdenwait]

love Jokic and everything about his game (and MJ is my undisputed GOAT) but people need to calm down man.. acting like Nuggets won 4 straight titles or something. there have been SO MANY amazing players since MJ retired to this day, this eagerness to crown someone the best constantly is tiresome personally. and yeah peak Lebron as a player is levels ahead too.

[Roger Murdock]

The Lakers had the best record in the league after the Westbrook trade.

The 1995 Rockets were a 6th seed. Were they a bad team?

The current lakers are going to get swept in the first round. I thought last years lakers were a top 4 team at start of playoffs. This year I think they are a bottom 4 playoff team. I don’t see your point - I’m aware they were in form for a few months late last season.

What do the 1994 rockets have to do with anything? That team won the title. What are you expecting from these Lakers? They are flat lining

My point is the Lakers last year were a good team and better than the 2007 Pistons. You can’t just judge teams by what seed they are and what number seeds they beat. By that logic the 1995 Rockets are the greatest team of all time because they beat a 3rd seed, 2nd seed, 1st seed, and 1st seed, but they’re also the worst champion of all time because they’re a 6th seed.

You judge teams based on their relativity to peers. We know for a fact these current Lakers are an average and ordinary NBA team in 2024, and we know for a fact the 2007 Pistons were a top level team in 2007.

If the teams ever faced off, the 2007 Pistons would have smoked these lakers; who were mostly in middle school at the time. And if they faced today, the Lakers would mop the floor with old retired players.

We don’t have a Time Machine. If we did; I bet the 1996 Rockets would suck today even though they performed great vs their peers. Whatever-point you are trying to make is meaningless. Everyone knows the talent level in todays league is considerably better than 2007.

[sfernald]

Nah, shortest reign ever then cause Wemby about to take the crown from him forever more. Jokic won’t even sniff another MVP or championship once Wemby GOAT GETS STARTED.

[FarBeyondDriven]

The current lakers are going to get swept in the first round. I thought last years lakers were a top 4 team at start of playoffs. This year I think they are a bottom 4 playoff team. I don’t see your point - I’m aware they were in form for a few months late last season.

What do the 1994 rockets have to do with anything? That team won the title. What are you expecting from these Lakers? They are flat lining

My point is the Lakers last year were a good team and better than the 2007 Pistons. You can’t just judge teams by what seed they are and what number seeds they beat. By that logic the 1995 Rockets are the greatest team of all time because they beat a 3rd seed, 2nd seed, 1st seed, and 1st seed, but they’re also the worst champion of all time because they’re a 6th seed.

You judge teams based on their relativity to peers. We know for a fact these current Lakers are an average and ordinary NBA team in 2024, and we know for a fact the 2007 Pistons were a top level team in 2007.

If the teams ever faced off, the 2007 Pistons would have smoked these lakers; who were mostly in middle school at the time. And if they faced today, the Lakers would mop the floor with old retired players.

We don’t have a Time Machine. If we did; I bet the 1996 Rockets would suck today even though they performed great vs their peers. Whatever-point you are trying to make is meaningless. Everyone knows the talent level in todays league is considerably better than 2007.

stop. Shooting is certainly better. But that's it. Defense is worse. Handles are worse because players today rely on carries and travels not being called. The nuances of the game like boxing out, setting picks, post up games, mid-range games, moving without the ball, BBIQ, etc are all worse today.

[Maxthirty]

Jokic is currently the best player in the league, and my favorite player to watch. He’s amazing.

But he hasn’t reached peak LeBron level… yet.

[Yoshun]

I'm a huge Jokic fan, but LeBron is the best player I've seen since MJ. A prime LeBron could probably get this season's Pistons to the playoffs.

[Snakebites]

Lebron is the best player since ever.

[Black Jack]

I just want to touch on Murray and the supporting cast. It's a very good squad. Murray, MPJ, Gordon, KCP etc. are no joke. I'd definitely take the Nuggets minus their big 2 over the Lakers minus their big 2.

Gordon in particular is what puts the roster over the top for me by adding really good athleticism. Any team without an athletic big is going to get roasted by Gordon. Him no longer having to try to be a finisher made him into an incredible role player.

Murray not being an all star doesn't matter. He's an elite guard when it matters, as we saw last night.

I will concede that it's not an all world cast like the peak Warriors or whatever. But VERY solid supporting players for Jokic.

[Exp0sed]

Jokic just smashes past anything that's in don't of him and that's impressive considering how strong the West has been.

Lebron deserves praise for his success but he did have it rather east in the EAST for so many years.



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he only "smashed" a play-in team, in Denver
I think Wolves will beat them in the 2nd, they are ideally suited to beat the Nuggets

Jokic is great regardless