Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[dhsilv2]

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan. Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

LOL, no he's not a top 5 player in any sense of the word. Murray is a very good player and the Nuggets don't have much of a bench. It's not always about the value of an individual but about the loss due to a lack of depth. If Will Barton becomes your second option that is a huge concern.

[Cubbies2120]

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan.Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan.Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

This is why calling everyone a star or a role player has turned basketball analysis into mush. Having a roster with good solid starter level players, that we used to praise as that, role player. A term we used to save for specialists who came off the bench to fill in for very specific goal or perhaps were specialists so good at something they'd start and you'd adjust your roster around their weaknesses. Now we just say anyone not scoring 25 a game is a role player. You can't get into "good starter" vs "role player" vs "end of bench scrub" or better put, "non rotation player".

Jokic was winning games with non rotation players starting.

[Ambrose]

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan.Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

Jokic had to go into a gun fight with a butter knife and still delivered some damage

[An Unbiased Fan]

Talk to me when he has more rings. Stats mean less now than ever with how defense is played.

[One Last Shot]

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan.Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

LeBron did. He actually lead a "crap" non-respectable team to NBA Finals.. twice in 2007 and 2018. That Jokic will lead Bulls to Conference Finals take is just theoretical. He actually have a healthy Gordon and MPJ then Rivers/Morris played 30 mpg who all shot atleast 39% 3PT in 2021 Playoffs, still the Nuggets got swept in Semifinals yet you will just use the 2022 playoffs and ignore the previous year when Murray was the only one injured. That's the best Jokic can do without Jamal so far, swept by the Suns in the Semifinals. What if Murray got injured again in the 2nd round and the Wolves/Suns eliminated the Nuggets in the semis? Are you going to crap on Gordon/MPJ/KCP and the entire Nuggets roster?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the biggest fan of Jokic in this board and I'm almost certain that he will be the undisputed GOAT in 8-10 years. It's just bs that some of his fans intentionally thrash his squad to boost his status the way some Wemby fan created a bs thread that Victor is already better than Jokic.

In my opinion, Jokic is a trascendent player who will suceed regardless which team drafted him. If Murray didn't tear his acl in 2021, there's a good chance that the Nuggets already won 3 championships going for their 4th NBA title this year while LeBron and MJ fans arguing who's the 2nd best player of all time. Wemby has a long way to go before you put him in the same stratosphere as The Joker. Jokic's playstyle is bullet-proof, he will be healthy and in his prime for the next 8 years or so. Can't say the same for Victor eventhough he's 9 years younger. Jokic's peak will be unprecedented, he should've won 4 straight MVPs by now. 2 more MVPs and he will surpass LeBron who should've won 5 straight.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan.Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

LeBron did. He actually lead a "crap" non-respectable team to NBA Finals.. twice in 2007 and 2018. That Jokic will lead Bulls to Conference Finals take is just theoretical. He actually have a healthy Gordon and MPJ then Rivers/Morris played 30 mpg who all shot atleast 39% 3PT in 2021 Playoffs, still the Nuggets got swept in Semifinals yet you will just use the 2022 playoffs and ignore the previous year when Murray was the only one injured. That's the best Jokic can do without Jamal so far, swept by the Suns in the Semifinals. What if Murray got injured again in the 2nd round and the Wolves/Suns eliminated the Nuggets in the semis? Are you going to crap on Gordon/MPJ/KCP and the entire Nuggets roster?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the biggest fan of Jokic in this board and I'm almost certain that he will be the undisputed GOAT in 8-10 years. It's just bs that some of his fans intentionally thrash his squad to boost his status the way some Wemby fan created a bs thread that Victor is already better than Jokic.

In my opinion, Jokic is a trascendent player who will suceed regardless which team drafted him. If Murray didn't tear his acl in 2021, there's a good chance that the Nuggets already won 3 championships going for their 4th NBA title this year while LeBron and MJ fans arguing who's the 2nd best player of all time. Wemby has a long way to go before you put him in the same stratosphere as The Joker. Jokic's playstyle is bullet-proof, he will be healthy and in his prime for the next 8 years or so. Can't say the same for Victor eventhough he's 9 years younger. Jokic's peak will be unprecedented, he should've won 4 straight MVPs by now. 2 more MVPs and he will surpass LeBron who should've won 5 straight.

Defense is a part of basketball...good lord

[shi-woo]

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan. Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

This is a very bad take. Dirk is the only player I can think of that was able to power through with his 2 or 3 option in street cloths (Caron Butler). Not even LeBron could do it. Turns out when 1/5 of your teams salary is sitting in the stands eating popcorn it's kind of hard to win basketball games against elite competition who are using 100% of their resources.

It's kind of why every year fans hearts shatter when guys like Giannis, Zion, Embiid, and Kawhi all go down, because they know it's just inevitable at that point. And Jokic isn't forcing his way to dominant teams, nor is he teaming up with 2 other MVP candidates like some other stars. When his 2nd option goes down, it actually matters.

And yes, Jokic's leading his team of nobodies. None of these dudes are winning any type of awards. His most distinguished teammate is Aaron Gordon...Who won the dunk competition No All-NBA, no all-star, No All-Defense, No DPotY, no nothing. Just a bunch of guys who are considered good starters on a good team. Most people wouldn't even consider Jamal a legit #2 and MPJ is a laughable #3 for a championship team.

2nd Options since 2000, or 2nd best player

Murray, Middleton (AS) Davis (ANBA), Lowry (ANBA), Steph/KD (MVP), Kyrie (ANBA), Klay/Green (ANBA), Parker (HOF), Wade (HoF), Tyson Chandler (AS, DpoY) Pau (HoF), Pierce (ANBA)/KG (MVP), Parker/Manu (HoF), Shaq (MVP), Big Ben (DpoY, ANBA), Kobe (MVP)

3rd options Since 2000, or 3rd best player

MPJ, Jrue (AS), Kuzma, Pascal (ANBA), Klay (ANBA), Love (ANBA), Green (ANBA), Kawhii/Manu (ANBA), Bosh (ANBA), Terry (6MotY)/Kidd (MVP), Bynum (ANBA)/Odom (6MoY), Ray Allen (ANBA), Manu (AS), Walker (AS), Sheed (AS), Fisher

4 names on that entire list should stick out to you like a sore thumb. Jamal, MPJ, Kuzma, and DFish...The other two? Only had 2 Top 5 players in the entire league as their 1st and 2nd options

And you DONT want to start going into benches, unless you want to start comparing James Posey, Peja, Dwight, Rondo, Ibaka, and the likes to Braun and Bruce Brown

There are only 3 teams since Jordon that are even comprable to what Jokic has been doing. The 99 Spurs, a veteran team with another GOAT, the 2004 Pistons with 2 HoF the best defender of it's generation and 2 other AS, and Dirks Mavs, who also had the best big man defender of his generation, best 6th man of his generation, a former MVP, and 2 of the more historic All-NBA players of the 2000's

Bro, we can talk about Murray elevating his game all we want, but it changes literally nothing. Rajon Rondo isn't making the HoF because of playoff Rondo. Murray isn't winning MVP's, ANBA, or AS honors for what he does in June...Top to bottom, yes, Jokic last year had the biggest carry job the sport has seen since Timmy in 99.

[Cubbies2120]

I don't understand why some of you insist that Jokic lead his "nobody team" to promised land last playoffs when he's basically playing with someone who's just as good as the Eastern Conference Playoffs MVP for the entire postseason.


Jamal Murray in 2023 Playoffs
26.1 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.7 rpg, 1.5 spg in 58.6 TS%

Jimmy Butler in 2023 Playoffs
26.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 1.8 spg in 56.5 TS%

Because one of those guys is an elite defender and the other is a poor one. Because one off guys plays off Jokic and the other doesn't. They aren't remotely close as players.

Jokic won 1 playoffs series in 2 years when Jamal is injured but when he's healthy, Nuggets won 6 playoffs series and an NBA title in the same timespan. Seems like Jokic needs him otherwise he will be swept in the 2nd round of playoffs without him regardless how phenomenal he is. Jamal is a Top 5 player during playoffs in 2020 and 2023 at the very least and I think it's bs that Jokic fans thought his current teammate is thrash.

Let's add some context, shall we?

2021 - Lost to WC Champions who were 2 wins away from a ring, with no Murray [max contract slot taken up]
2022 - Lost to NBA Champions, with no Murray AND no MPJ [2 max contract slots]

Pick any player, in any year, where you could take the #2 and #3 players off their team and expect them to beat the NBA champions from that season in a 7 game series. I'll wait.

You could take Murray off the team, and REPLACE him with another max contract player and achieve similar results. It's not a mystery that taking a max contract slot (or 2) from a team will make them significantly worse...

[nikster]

That's a smooth brain take if I've ever heard one. In the year where MPJ and Murray were both out (2021-22), the Nuggets roster had 22 players play a game in the season. Only one, Rayjon Tucker, had a positive BPM. That fact that the team made the playoffs, let alone took a game off the Warriors, is a miracle made possible by having one of the GOATs playing.

While everyone else brought guns to a gun fight, Jokic was fighting with butter knives.

That comment is outright disingenuous.

You give Jokic even a respectable roster like this year's Bulls and he's probably going deep into the WCF if not the Finals those years. But you can't expect him to polish a turd to a deep playoff run - even he, the unquestionable best player in the NBA, isn't that good nor would anyone in NBA history take that crap to the playoffs.

LeBron did. He actually lead a "crap" non-respectable team to NBA Finals.. twice in 2007 and 2018. That Jokic will lead Bulls to Conference Finals take is just theoretical. He actually have a healthy Gordon and MPJ then Rivers/Morris played 30 mpg who all shot atleast 39% 3PT in 2021 Playoffs, still the Nuggets got swept in Semifinals yet you will just use the 2022 playoffs and ignore the previous year when Murray was the only one injured. That's the best Jokic can do without Jamal so far, swept by the Suns in the Semifinals. What if Murray got injured again in the 2nd round and the Wolves/Suns eliminated the Nuggets in the semis? Are you going to crap on Gordon/MPJ/KCP and the entire Nuggets roster?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the biggest fan of Jokic in this board and I'm almost certain that he will be the undisputed GOAT in 8-10 years. It's just bs that some of his fans intentionally thrash his squad to boost his status the way some Wemby fan created a bs thread that Victor is already better than Jokic.

In my opinion, Jokic is a trascendent player who will suceed regardless which team drafted him. If Murray didn't tear his acl in 2021, there's a good chance that the Nuggets already won 3 championships going for their 4th NBA title this year while LeBron and MJ fans arguing who's the 2nd best player of all time. Wemby has a long way to go before you put him in the same stratosphere as The Joker. Jokic's playstyle is bullet-proof, he will be healthy and in his prime for the next 8 years or so. Can't say the same for Victor eventhough he's 9 years younger. Jokic's peak will be unprecedented, he should've won 4 straight MVPs by now. 2 more MVPs and he will surpass LeBron who should've won 5 straight.

Defense is a part of basketball...good lord

Seriously. Those Lebron teams might have been worse than last years Denver squad when healthy, but no way were they worse than the lineups Denver was bringing out the other years.

[iLLmatic860]

Prime Bron is easily better but Jokic is def in the top five conversation (best players since MJ)

[lessthanjake]

It’s not even just Murray and Porter Jr. being out. It’s also the quality of the rest of the guys. The rest of the team in 2022 was almost entirely filled with deep bench and borderline NBA players. Aaron Gordon is a decent player, but beyond him it was filled with guys who have subsequently found it hard to stay in the NBA and/or have found it hard to even make another team’s rotation. The team was awful. This isn’t the typical type of awful that we often label a team where there’s a star surrounded by serviceable role players but no major difference makers. It was a team where the star was surrounded by non-serviceable NBA players. There’s very little precedent for that in the playoffs, precisely because there’s very few players in NBA history that could get a team like that to the playoffs in the first place.

The 2021 team was probably a little better, because it did at least have MPJ. But let’s remember that this was a 21-year-old MPJ in his 2nd NBA season. And let’s also remember that one of the better of the non-serviceable players, Will Barton, was out the vast majority of the playoffs, and that the team was starting Campazzo and Rivers. Outside of having MPJ, the 2021 team was probably somehow even worse than the 2022 team.

There’s really no comparison between these teams and ones like the 2007 and 2018 Cavs. Those teams were nothing to write home about, but they were at least filled with genuinely solid NBA players.

[dhsilv2]

LeBron did. He actually lead a "crap" non-respectable team to NBA Finals.. twice in 2007 and 2018. That Jokic will lead Bulls to Conference Finals take is just theoretical. He actually have a healthy Gordon and MPJ then Rivers/Morris played 30 mpg who all shot atleast 39% 3PT in 2021 Playoffs, still the Nuggets got swept in Semifinals yet you will just use the 2022 playoffs and ignore the previous year when Murray was the only one injured. That's the best Jokic can do without Jamal so far, swept by the Suns in the Semifinals. What if Murray got injured again in the 2nd round and the Wolves/Suns eliminated the Nuggets in the semis? Are you going to crap on Gordon/MPJ/KCP and the entire Nuggets roster?

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the biggest fan of Jokic in this board and I'm almost certain that he will be the undisputed GOAT in 8-10 years. It's just bs that some of his fans intentionally thrash his squad to boost his status the way some Wemby fan created a bs thread that Victor is already better than Jokic.

Defense is a part of basketball...good lord

Seriously. Those Lebron teams might have been worse than last years Denver squad when healthy, but no way were they worse than the lineups Denver was bringing out the other years.

Lebron deserves all kinds of credit for that 2007 run for sure. But that was a really good defensive team for the era. The takes on that Cavs team and the 2001 76ers really need to die.

[MacGill]

It’s not even just Murray and Porter Jr. being out. It’s also the quality of the rest of the guys. The rest of the team in 2022 was almost entirely filled with deep bench and borderline NBA players. Aaron Gordon is a decent player, but beyond him it was filled with guys who have subsequently found it hard to stay in the NBA and/or have found it hard to even make another team’s rotation. The team was awful. This isn’t the typical type of awful that we often label a team where there’s a star surrounded by serviceable role players but no major difference makers. It was a team where the star was surrounded by non-serviceable NBA players. There’s very little precedent for that in the playoffs, precisely because there’s very few players in NBA history that could get a team like that to the playoffs in the first place.

The 2021 team was probably a little better, because it did at least have MPJ. But let’s remember that this was a 21-year-old MPJ in his 2nd NBA season. And let’s also remember that one of the better of the non-serviceable players, Will Barton, was out the vast majority of the playoffs, and that the team was starting Campazzo and Rivers. Outside of having MPJ, the 2021 team was probably somehow even worse than the 2022 team.

There’s really no comparison between these teams and ones like the 2007 and 2018 Cavs. Those teams were nothing to write home about, but they were at least filled with genuinely solid NBA players.

All we need to do now is team Jokic up with Giannis & Luca and bammmmm....instant GOAT + all the best raw and advanced stats etc.

Jokic is the actual difference of being able to 'actually' make your teammates better, beyond simple raw production, versus playing within a one-man system that makes you believe they're all playing at their best levels or wouldn't be ablt to without that said player. 2023 Denver was already better than any LBJ led team, in my opinion, and we're still waiting for Murray to even make an AS selection. If the argument was good enough all these years for LBJ then I don't see how posters can try and change the narrative for Jokic. He simply maximizes his team without taken away from their actual abilities, hence why they all seem to be doing better than on prior teams or roles.

[Lalouie]

I can understand putting Lebron ahead of either guy in your host rankings. Longevity matters, so does actual hardware.

But peak prime? Jokic is best player in league since Jordan. They are a tier above the next best “guys at their peak prime” (Lebron Giannis Shaq) and levels above the tier below that (Durant KG Steph).

I don’t even think it’s close. He controls the game like no one else since Jordan, whereas to me the guys the tier below never controlled every game, they were more akin to unstoppable freight trains that could take over a game. It’s the difference between these guys for me.

best player since kareem.
but what jokic does is what walton did, which for real makes the team/mates BETTER.

all these pundits who go crazy and quite liberal with the phrase have yet to state the most obvious,,,,that a great center WHO PASSES GREAT is worth more than an mj/lebrob put together. such a specimen is rarer than gold. you see what jokic is doing and that is what walton did

[Mirotic12]

Shaqs athleticism was absolutely insane. No one has moved under that weight as Shaq. I remember when CAVS played that game against Olympiacos, and we got Shaq vs Sofoklis. Even CAVS Shaq moved way better than Sofoklis and Shaq was actually stronger than him. They remain top 2 strongest basketball players I have ever seen and the gap between these 2 and the next guy who woukd be third place, is rather enourmous. I have no doubt it was the only time in Schortsanitis' career where he was overpowered and not just outrunned.

And yes, Shaq was a good passer, he was one of the best passing centers, was pretty good at long transition starting passes. Was not elite as Divac or Webber or Brad Miller even, and by todays standards, he wouldn't be special, but his passing was very good.

Shaq was definitely bigger than Sofo, at least in terms of height and length (not in weight though, which was probably about the same), and he was more explosive. So with added height leverage and more explosiveness and quickness, he was probably more powerful than Sofo. But stronger? No. He wasn't stronger than Sofo.

Watch on YouTube

[DorianRo]

Thats a big leap when you consider guys like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan. Hes up there but I wouldn't put him past those guys

[One_and_Done]

It's basically bad luck that Jamal Murray hasn't made an all-star team yet. He's an all-nba talent.

Jokic's team has a tonne of talent, and fits optimally next to him.

Jokic is a great player, but he isn't even a top 3 player since Jordan. Honestly, he might not even be top 5. Lebron, Duncan, and Shaq are indisputably better to start with. Curry is better too, and honestly I'd take other guys over him as well.

[One_and_Done]

Thats a big leap when you consider guys like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan. Hes up there but I wouldn't put him past those guys

He's miles better than Kobe.

I just did a poll posing almost this exact question in fact.
viewtopic.php?t=2372351

Jokic also murders Kobe in basically every poll.
viewtopic.php?t=2368400

[DorianRo]

Thats a big leap when you consider guys like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan. Hes up there but I wouldn't put him past those guys

He's miles better than Kobe.

I just did a poll posing almost this exact question in fact.
viewtopic.php?t=2372351

How is he miles better than Kobe? LOL . Kobe was playing in way more stacked WC and won 5 titles.