Are players actually better ball handlers today? Or are they getting away with a carry?

[hauntedcomputer]

Guys dribble the ball over their shoulders with no repercussions or take three steps in between dribbles. Anything goes.

[Prince187]

Watch on YouTube

Wow i would love to see a modern player transported to that era

[Apz]

Ofcourse thwy are better now. Sports evolve all the time and its a lot more people to choose from making the skill level just go up. Its just natural

[Bergmaniac]

It's obviously both unless you are really drunk on nostalgia.

[The Servant]

The "hesi" carry is making the game unwatchable. It's easy to break down the defense when you can hold it for 1.5 to 2 seconds.

Ja Morant does it
Jordan Poole does it

I call it the Jordan Poole carry because his career is built on it.

[bledredwine]

I’d say they’re somewhat flashier and a hell of a lot more turnover prone.

[Chuck Everett]

Watch on YouTube

If that was the call today, you would basically have a test pattern rather than a basketball game. It would be that many whistles.

[og15]

Both, the average player is a better ball handler, but there's more leeway.

That said, slow motion is not really how this should be judged.

I’d say they’re somewhat flashier and a hell of a lot more turnover prone.

The allowing of more leeway has actually decreased live ball handling turnovers as players can handle pressure better without turning it over when they are able to manipulate the ball more.

It's part of why we've seen an overall decrease in turnover percentages which also contributes to increased offensive efficiency as fewer turnovers equals better points per possession.

[bledredwine]

Both, the average player is a better ball handler, but there's more leeway.

That said, slow motion is not really how this should be judged.

I’d say they’re somewhat flashier and a hell of a lot more turnover prone.

The allowing of more leeway has actually decreased live ball handling turnovers as players can handle pressure better without turning it over when they are able to manipulate the ball more.

It's part of why we've seen an overall decrease in turnover percentages which also contributes to increased offensive efficiency as fewer turnovers equals better points per possession.

Why do so many point players have such higher turnovers compared to players in the past?

It's significant enough that pace alone can't account for it.

[ChiTownHero1992]

It's a bit of both....skills and ball handling have developed considerably over time however rules don't exist either, carrying, travels and double-dribbles are none existent in today's NBA so they look more flashy by being able to break said rules

[mariller]

Iverson modernized the crossover arguably. It was a carry half of the time he did it. This play I’ll post from Kyrie is very common for him too, and he’s considered by many to be the best “balls handler” of all time. It’s an incredibly egregious non call IMO. It made me wonder if guys are actually better with handles today, or is it more that refs have stopped actually calling palming or carrying?

If it’s a rule enforcement thing is it formally no longer a thing? Or they just don’t care anymore? You watch guys like Jerry West handle and it looks kinda boring, but it was playing within the rules that were enforced.

Read on Twitter

if this is egregious to you you must not watch a lot of basketball. I don't either, but watched Miami-Boston first game, and basically every dribble by Jrue Holiday, and I mean every one is a carry. His hand is at the side or even below the ball ALL THE TIME.

[Johnny Bball]

Iverson modernized the crossover arguably. It was a carry half of the time he did it. This play I’ll post from Kyrie is very common for him too, and he’s considered by many to be the best “balls handler” of all time. It’s an incredibly egregious non call IMO. It made me wonder if guys are actually better with handles today, or is it more that refs have stopped actually calling palming or carrying?

If it’s a rule enforcement thing is it formally no longer a thing? Or they just don’t care anymore? You watch guys like Jerry West handle and it looks kinda boring, but it was playing within the rules that were enforced.

Read on Twitter

if this is egregious to you you must not watch a lot of basketball. I don't either, but watched Miami-Boston first game, and basically every dribble by Jrue Holiday, and I mean every one is a carry. His hand is at the side or even below the ball ALL THE TIME.

Both are possible.

But there's 4 carrying violations in that clip under the old rules. And Kyrie doesn't beat his man and doesn't score spectacularly without doing it. So he's far more skilled apparently.

There's even a carrying violation under todays rules in there though.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Iverson modernized the crossover arguably. It was a carry half of the time he did it. This play I’ll post from Kyrie is very common for him too, and he’s considered by many to be the best “balls handler” of all time. It’s an incredibly egregious non call IMO. It made me wonder if guys are actually better with handles today, or is it more that refs have stopped actually calling palming or carrying?

If it’s a rule enforcement thing is it formally no longer a thing? Or they just don’t care anymore? You watch guys like Jerry West handle and it looks kinda boring, but it was playing within the rules that were enforced.

Read on Twitter

if this is egregious to you you must not watch a lot of basketball. I don't either, but watched Miami-Boston first game, and basically every dribble by Jrue Holiday, and I mean every one is a carry. His hand is at the side or even below the ball ALL THE TIME.

lol you think Holiday is bad I wouldn't even put him in the Top 50 in terms of players that are egregious with their rule violations....NBA is nearly unwatchable because of all this Idc what anyone says, by taking away all the rules the game is easier and just stupidly boring to me

[mariller]

Iverson modernized the crossover arguably. It was a carry half of the time he did it. This play I’ll post from Kyrie is very common for him too, and he’s considered by many to be the best “balls handler” of all time. It’s an incredibly egregious non call IMO. It made me wonder if guys are actually better with handles today, or is it more that refs have stopped actually calling palming or carrying?

If it’s a rule enforcement thing is it formally no longer a thing? Or they just don’t care anymore? You watch guys like Jerry West handle and it looks kinda boring, but it was playing within the rules that were enforced.

Read on Twitter

if this is egregious to you you must not watch a lot of basketball. I don't either, but watched Miami-Boston first game, and basically every dribble by Jrue Holiday, and I mean every one is a carry. His hand is at the side or even below the ball ALL THE TIME.

lol you think Holiday is bad I wouldn't even put him in the Top 50 in terms of players that are egregious with their rule violations....NBA is nearly unwatchable because of all this Idc what anyone says, by taking away all the rules the game is easier and just stupidly boring to me

Don't disagree, there are guys like Ja or Poole that constantly carry to try to beat their man, but Jrue was so noticable especially because he was not trying to get by anyone, he was just walking, at the top of the key dribbling. It was as if he couldn't even dribble normally it looked to me basically like every dribble he was catching the ball INTO his hand and than dribbling again.

[dhsilv2]

Both, the average player is a better ball handler, but there's more leeway.

That said, slow motion is not really how this should be judged.

I’d say they’re somewhat flashier and a hell of a lot more turnover prone.

The allowing of more leeway has actually decreased live ball handling turnovers as players can handle pressure better without turning it over when they are able to manipulate the ball more.

It's part of why we've seen an overall decrease in turnover percentages which also contributes to increased offensive efficiency as fewer turnovers equals better points per possession.

Why do so many point players have such higher turnovers compared to players in the past?

It's significant enough that pace alone can't account for it.

2024 top player in turnovers per game Luka 4.0 followed by Wemby at 3.7 and Lebron at 3.5
1990 Thomas at 4.0 Dream at 3.9 Magic at 3.7 Malone at 3.7

This feels like another one of those weird things where people say teams take more free throws today when it's the opposite.

[FarBeyondDriven]

players legit can't even dribble the ball while standing still or going up the court without carrying. The rule is completely ignored. No part of the hand should be allowed to touch the bottom half of the ball. That's why it seems players are more skilled now but in reality they're just breaking rules.

Kinda like how back in the old days, a screen setter would have to wait for a ball handler to clear him completely before moving and arms and legs couldn't be extended outside their shoulders. This meant it was mainly positions defending positions since there were no switches. Now? It's become so absurd with moving screens that defenders don't even attempt to stay with their man and that's why you see all these ISO of scoring guards/wings against slow-footed centers which further adds to the myth that players are more skilled. Because of course they look impressive breaking down 7 footers who look like the'yre running in moon boots. These guys have no chance.

Players use a "hesi" signaling they're going to go up for a jumper but it's really a blatant carry but the big has already committed to contest so they're easily blown by when the ball is put back on the floor. If the "hesi" is used on a non-big and the defender is able to adjust and get back in defensive position, offensive players are now allowed to chicken wing or even blatantly fend them off with their off-hand which should be an offensive foul but is laughably more apt to get them to the FT line. But let's say a guy is defending you well and none of these things are working, well, have you heard of the jab step travel step back three? They're all the rage. So skilled. So talented!

The reason why the 80s is the hardest decade with the best teams and players in NBA history is because that was the last decade where players played within the rules yet were still capable of looking incredibly skilled and athletic. MJ was an outlier because he could do all those amazing things without carrying, traveling, needing switches using moving screens, or pushing off (did on that game winner late in his career of course but the rules had just begun relaxing at that point) There's a giant leap between the players from previous decades and the 80s and it's the evolution of skill through practice but playing by the same rules. It looks pedestrian now because this generation only knows the joke that is today's NBA.

[KOA]

The definition of carry would need to be expanded. Right now its only if you put your hand under the ball.
Players know that and basically cradle it like Kyrie did there. Technically, he didn't put his hand under the ball, but he literally carried it with a cradle.

[pipfan]

For sure, both
But I do HATE how lax they are. I see a guy like Ja or Garland, they basically carry the whole game.

[bledredwine]

Both, the average player is a better ball handler, but there's more leeway.

That said, slow motion is not really how this should be judged.


The allowing of more leeway has actually decreased live ball handling turnovers as players can handle pressure better without turning it over when they are able to manipulate the ball more.

It's part of why we've seen an overall decrease in turnover percentages which also contributes to increased offensive efficiency as fewer turnovers equals better points per possession.

Why do so many point players have such higher turnovers compared to players in the past?

It's significant enough that pace alone can't account for it.

2024 top player in turnovers per game Luka 4.0 followed by Wemby at 3.7 and Lebron at 3.5
1990 Thomas at 4.0 Dream at 3.9 Magic at 3.7 Malone at 3.7

This feels like another one of those weird things where people say teams take more free throws today when it's the opposite.

I'll retract my original claim.

On the whole, teams turn over the ball slightly less now than before. But the point players of the league with high possessions seem to turn over the ball more.

Luka - 4 per game
Lebron - 3.5 per game
Giannis - 3 per game
Jokic - 3

Jordan - 2.7 per game
Stockton - 2.8 per game
Hakeem - 3 per game
Chuck - 3.1 per game


I randomly selected these players just now since I'm in a rush. I'd like to
see a comparison between the top 5 now and then. I could be wrong.

But certainly, among the top players, some of the 90s players were unusually good at taking care of the ball.

I don't see any of the top players now that I think of the same way, though I consider
Jokic in that league.

I probably had the Bulls in mind since that's what I grew up watching.

[dhsilv2]

Why do so many point players have such higher turnovers compared to players in the past?

It's significant enough that pace alone can't account for it.

2024 top player in turnovers per game Luka 4.0 followed by Wemby at 3.7 and Lebron at 3.5
1990 Thomas at 4.0 Dream at 3.9 Magic at 3.7 Malone at 3.7

This feels like another one of those weird things where people say teams take more free throws today when it's the opposite.

I'll retract my original claim.

On the whole, teams turn over the ball slightly less now than before. But the point players of the league with high possessions seem to turn over the ball more.

Luka - 4 per game
Lebron - 3.5 per game
Giannis - 3 per game
Jokic - 3

Jordan - 2.7 per game
Stockton - 2.8 per game
Hakeem - 3 per game
Chuck - 3.1 per game


I randomly selected these players just now since I'm in a rush. I'd like to
see a comparison between the top 5 now and then. I could be wrong.

But certainly, among the top players, some of the 90s players were unusually good at taking care of the ball.

I don't see any of the top players now that I think of the same way, though I consider
Jokic in that league.

I probably had the Bulls in mind since that's what I grew up watching.

The thing is you're kinda getting into pace vs minutes which is confusing. But then also usage. Top guys today dominate the ball WAY WAY WAY more than in the 90's.

But like 1989 which is a good season since pace was fairly close to today (100.6 vs 98.5). There were 25 guys to average 3 or more turnovers. This year it's 11 total. And remember we have 20% more teams so it should be 20% higher.

And just for context but Magic averaged 3.9 for his career. And nobody is calling Magic a bad anything. Maybe not a great defender but even there he wasn't bad.