Windy: Mavs look like the biggest threat to DEN in the West

[AleksandarN]

One and done is creating an argument that can't be disproven, because it relies on things that haven't happened yet (Denver playing certain teams in the playoffs, with regular season discounted). It's not really worth the debate tbh.

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

I don't think you could genuinely say Jokic has had playoff failures. Which series did he lose as a favourite, or with a better team, or through his own underperformances? He has always been a strong playoff performer, he has always elevated teams above their level and, when he had an elite team, he won it all pretty convincingly.

I completely agree that rings are a lazy measure of individual greatness, but once you start introducing subjective criteria like the supposed strength of a playoff field, it's hard to debate in good faith because you're always going to be able to move the goal posts (eg - Jokic hasn't faced good pick and roll teams in the playoffs, and when he beat them in the regular season it didn't count).

What would you consider a "more competitive playoff field"?

Across the numerous thread he has. He runs away when he getting cooked.

[AleksandarN]

One and done is creating an argument that can't be disproven, because it relies on things that haven't happened yet (Denver playing certain teams in the playoffs, with regular season discounted). It's not really worth the debate tbh.

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

you are a crearly a troll... but you can make a better job to don't get discovered

I know he is. I like calling it out. It is funny. Hence lol

[One_and_Done]

One and done is creating an argument that can't be disproven, because it relies on things that haven't happened yet (Denver playing certain teams in the playoffs, with regular season discounted). It's not really worth the debate tbh.

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

I don't think you could genuinely say Jokic has had playoff failures. Which series did he lose as a favourite, or with a better team, or through his own underperformances? He has always been a strong playoff performer, he has always elevated teams above their level and, when he had an elite team, he won it all pretty convincingly.

I completely agree that rings are a lazy measure of individual greatness, but once you start introducing subjective criteria like the supposed strength of a playoff field, it's hard to debate in good faith because you're always going to be able to move the goal posts (eg - Jokic hasn't faced good pick and roll teams in the playoffs, and when he beat them in the regular season it didn't count).

What would you consider a "more competitive playoff field"?

We're not going to agree about his past failures. What I will say is that analytics guru Kevin Pelton wrote an article concluding that by the numbers Denver was the 2nd worst champion in the last 25 yrs (after the 06 Heat). I don't agree with that assessment, and neither did Pelton, but I definitely think it's fair to say last year waa a bit of a down year, thanks to injuries and match ups in part. I'm hoping this year is more competetive.

[AleksandarN]

This is fun. Hey One and Done how do you determine who is a top high pick and roll team?

[One_and_Done]

This is fun. Hey One and Done how do you determine who is a top high pick and roll team?

By using common sense, watching the games, and evaluating the personnel. It's pointless to look at RS averages sometimes. I don't know or care who the stats say used a box & 1 defence most this RS; I only know Philly has spammed it against NY. Teams play differently in the RS.

[AleksandarN]

This is fun. Hey One and Done how do you determine who is a top high pick and roll team?

By using common sense, watching the games, and evaluating the personnel. It's pointless to look at RS averages sometimes. I don't know or care who the stats say used a box & 1 defence most this RS; I only know Philly has spammed it against NY. Teams play differently in the RS.

What games? lol. This is too easy. You are easy work.

[Pokuokic]

Timberwolves are by far a bigger threat

[Exp0sed]

Minny is the biggest threat and imo even a slight favorite and since these two will meet in the next round..

in theory tho, I agree that Mavs are the biggest remaining threat (unless KL can be close to 100%) after the Wolves

[fansse]

With a very subpar roster. Without Doncic, that'd be a lottery team. That'S how good Doncic is

[Drakeem]

Both teams didn’t treat it as post season. Both teams wanted to win.

One and done is creating an argument that can't be disproven, because it relies on things that haven't happened yet (Denver playing certain teams in the playoffs, with regular season discounted). It's not really worth the debate tbh.

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

Wait a minute, Jokic came up short? Give me the series where he underperformed/they lost bc of his play?

[Astaluego]

With a very subpar roster. Without Doncic, that'd be a lottery team. That'S how good Doncic is

Friend, I love Luka, but let's not exaggerate, although the rest of the team is low average, Irving is an absolutely elite second option and so far he has been even better than Luka so far in the Playoff and in my eyes better than many 1 options

[UglyBugBall]

I put $500 on the Mavs making the finals. I didn't have the balls to pick them over Boston yet.

Wow at +1500 plus odds if I recall, it would net you $7,500 if they reach the finals but you can kiss your moolah goodbye. I think the only team that can beat them is Boston without any injury along the way but the odds are not so good since they are slightly favorite Lol

I only picked them to make the finals, so Boston wouldn't factor in yet.

[Biff]

Minnesota looks great. We swept the series with them so I thought we'd have chance but nah. They're completely shutting down Booker and our guys are in shambles. I think KD and Booker are going to ask out this offseason. This team ain't a team. Us Suns fans gonna enjoy watching Beal and Allen chuck it for the next few years, while all our lottery picks go to other teams. Hopefully Jones can get us some reasonable assets for KD and Booker. Probably won't get much for KD's old ass. And unfortunately even if Beal asks out with KD and Booker, he is completely untradeable. Nobody is going to touch that albatross of a contract given how much he has declined.

[xAIRNESSx]

I feel like Dallas is the least threat to Denver

[One_and_Done]

One and done is creating an argument that can't be disproven, because it relies on things that haven't happened yet (Denver playing certain teams in the playoffs, with regular season discounted). It's not really worth the debate tbh.

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

Wait a minute, Jokic came up short? Give me the series where he underperformed/they lost bc of his play?

Jokic got exposed in the pick and roll in 19, 21 and 22 by the Blazers, Suns and Warriors respectively. The 20 Lakers used to run more PnR too with a younger Lebron, a better structured team, and an AD who hit 3s. You will have various excuses, and I will say he should have done better and looked exposed. I want to see how this playoffs fares before I grant that it's not an issue.

[Stone]

Another vote here for the Wolves

[Drakeem]

The other side is doing the same, in that all Jokic's past failures are being dismissed with excuses. Taking a step back; Jokic is a guy with one title, and alot of postseasons where he came up short. I don't judge guys off titles, but this idea Jokic has proven it all and we should shut up is silly. I think waiting to see how he does against a more competetive playoff field is extremely reasonable.

Wait a minute, Jokic came up short? Give me the series where he underperformed/they lost bc of his play?

Jokic got exposed in the pick and roll in 19, 21 and 22 by the Blazers, Suns and Warriors respectively. The 20 Lakers used to run more PnR too with a younger Lebron, a better structured team, and an AD who hit 3s. You will have various excuses, and I will say he should have done better and looked exposed. I want to see how this playoffs fares before I grant that it's not an issue.

You didn't answer the question I gave to you based on the previous post.

You said he underperformed, meaning that his play fell below his average and he lost his team the series. I see you pointed out three series. Would you say that he "underperformed" and lost as the favored team to those three teams?

[PistolPeteJR]

I always thought it’s Minny, because they are best at negating the things at negating DEN’s match up advantages.

MIN plays Towns on Jokic. Nobody stops Jokic, but Towns length helps reduce his passing ability, and makes Jokic more of a scorer. That allows Gobert to protect the paint while he guards Aaron Gordon. For most teams, that means if they use their PF and C this way, Porter has a big size advantage on his defender. The Wolves though are loaded with quality players 6-9 or taller, with Jaden McDaniels, Naz, and Kyle Anderson. In fact, MIN likely has the size advantage in the match up, because DEN’s bench bigs aren’t as deep as MIN.

Next, Jamal Murray is an under-rated player finally getting his due, and a lot of that credit goes to receiving great passes from Jokic. But MIN is showing that with defenders like McDaniels and Ant (and Nickiel Alexander-Walker), they can really limit perimeter scorers, like Devin Booker.

On the other hand, how does DEN handle Ant? They don’t have Brown this year, and the only player that could maybe defend him is Gordon. However, Gordon is the ONLY option they have to defend Towns size and scoring ability. Towns shoots over smaller guys, and drive past bigger, slower defenders.

I’m not saying MIN is better than DEN, and they should be favored. I am saying that MIN’s team composition (both built by Tim Connelly) create a lot of match up issues for the Nuggets. I wonder if Connelly realized that for the MIN to have high level success, he needed to build a team that could match up with with DEN, and that influenced him to pay such a high price to acquire Gobert?

I hear what you’re saying about Minny and largely agree. But I wouldn’t put Gordon on Towns if I’m Malone.

Gordon on Ant
KCP on McDaniels
Murray on Conley
Jokic on Towns
Porter Jr on Gobert

I’m not 100% sold on this but I would start with this. Letting Ant go rampant off the bat is a bigger disaster.

[One_and_Done]

Wait a minute, Jokic came up short? Give me the series where he underperformed/they lost bc of his play?

Jokic got exposed in the pick and roll in 19, 21 and 22 by the Blazers, Suns and Warriors respectively. The 20 Lakers used to run more PnR too with a younger Lebron, a better structured team, and an AD who hit 3s. You will have various excuses, and I will say he should have done better and looked exposed. I want to see how this playoffs fares before I grant that it's not an issue.

You didn't answer the question I gave to you based on the previous post.

You said he underperformed, meaning that his play fell below his average and he lost his team the series. I see you pointed out three series. Would you say that he "underperformed" and lost as the favored team to those three teams?

If we treat Jokic as the GOAT candidate some people here want to then he definitely underachieved. Underachievement is tricky, because people treated Jokic as a guy who wasn't in the top 5 players those years. So they didn't expect this lower rated player to triumph. Part of the reason he was not favoured to win those years was because pundits said "Jokic will get killed in pick and roll on D", and so he was. I remember how much the Nuggets hid from Harden and the Rockets, so bad of a match up was it for them. I don't think it's coincidence he won the title the one year there were no PnR dominant teams for him to play.

[bledredwine]

No surprise here. The teams with the most legit top franchise player(s) shine in the playoffs, when the defensive intensity increases.