Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA'

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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#61 » by JElias » Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:15 am

MrGoat wrote:I have a question. How prominent was recruiting professional players out of college in the pre NBA days, say the 40s and earlier. I do know that some of Mikan's contributions to the game occurred in his college days. I suppose I'm asking how college basketball affected the development of pro basketball in the really early days


Collegians were present in the pro game to some extent from quite early on in the sport's history, but for the first few decades it wa mostly incidental. The first season in which major leagues existed, 1898-99, featured only two college players (both from UPenn), and from there it grew to a little over 10% of the professional population by 1910, nearly 25% by 1920, over a third by 1925, and surpassed half by 1935-36.

That being said, for most of that time these were either regionally or locally acclaimed players for the most part, or guys who tried out for the team who had just happened to play college ball but weren't guaranteed a spot on the team because of it. There was a pipeline from pro players to college coaches, but not much of one from college players to pro players. I don't believe a single Helms All-American signed with a pro team straight out of college until Howard Cann of NYU joined the Paterson Crescents in 1920-21. And there weren't any who made a tangible impact on the pro game until the 1930s.

Enter Eddie Wilde, assistant coach for the Brooklyn Visitation pro team. It wasn't uncommon for some of the best college teams to do a barnstorming tour professionally after their graduation, and the St. John's starting quintet of Mac Kinsbruner and Allie Schuckman at guard, Mac Posnack and Rip Gerson at forward, and Matty Begovich at center, who had just gone 88-8 over the last four years, all graduated together in 1931, did just that, and hired Wilde as their tour manager. The next fall, Wilde convinced them to turn professional permanently together and wrangled them a spot in the new MBL (which would later merge to become part of the ABL) as the Brooklyn Jewels. They were contenders for the next five years, won a league championship and made two others, and all five players played seven years or more, three of them over a decade. Kinsbruner was the best pro player of the 1930s on the white side of the sport, Schuckman and Begovich were both also major stars, and Posnack was one of the decade's best defenders. They were soon joined in the ABL by five other East Coast college stars.

But the expansion of top-level basketball to Midwestern industrial teams just a few years later was far more significant. Johnny Wooden, now known of course as one of the greatest coaches ever but then a National Player of the Year and National Champion with Purdue, opened the floodgates in a major way when he signed to play part-time with the Indianapolis Kautskys before there really even was a league in the area, just a year after the St. John's boys. When the MBC (the forerunner to the NBL) came into existence three years later, he was joined by Leroy Edwards, who skipped his last two years of collegiate eligibility to turn professional right after becoming the first underclassman in the history of the sport to win Player of the Year, as well as eight others of the previous two years' All-Americans, that being a firm majority of the NCAA's All-Americans who hailed from the Midwest and/or Rust Belt. The Pittsburgh team signed as many Duquesne players as they could find, Dayton did the same with Ohio State alums. From the very beginning, eight of the nine original MBC teams had more college players--often high-profile stars--than players without college experience. That right there, the foundation of the league that would two years later become the NBL, was the real beginning of elite-level college ball serving as a feeder for the pro game.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#62 » by GSWFan1994 » Sun Apr 28, 2024 12:28 pm

Great thread. :clap:

I know that you already posted a book list (post #44), but I'd like to ask you, could you post a list of the top 10 NBA books you've read, and a list of top 10 underrated NBA books, those who are not that well-known, but are fantastic regardless?

Thanks.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#63 » by hauntedcomputer » Sun Apr 28, 2024 9:51 pm

If people were going to go back and research just one player from the past to understand the evolution of the game, I believe it's Russell that's most informative to learn about.

A little bit of a cheat here because learning about Russell also means learning about Wilt, but truly Russell's combination of

a) Competitive success in NCAA, Olympic, and NBA basketball
b) Russell's great spearhead status as the first Black man to be able to demonstrate such clear cut interracial dominance
c) Russell's innovative and influential style of play


I have no problem accepting Russell as the GOAT and he's head and shoulders away the best winner at all levels of basketball, with KAJ a not-too-close second. I consider the "Celtics dynasty" to be two separate teams and is actually the "Russell Dynasty."

Glad to find a good history discussion, I hope we can continue it when the sticky fades. I also hope you write more books. You write well and if you're going back to original sources, it really colors in those eras and make it more accessible to modern fans.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#64 » by ___Rand___ » Mon Apr 29, 2024 12:37 am

maradro wrote:I'm curious about how the sport developed in a social sense.

Like, what was the profile of the first players, where were the first courts.. I haven't done any research or anything, but I have to assume that it was all mostly upper class given the cost of building a court .. when did public courts start to appear, how/why did schools start incorporating basketball?

I'm from south America, futbol is king here while basketball weve only seen public courts in the last 25 years or so, many schools don't even include it in their phys Ed because they don't have the infrastructure, so it remains a mostly upper class niche sport


I find this interesting that it's an upper class sport in South America. In the Philippines basketball is everywhere especially in slums and rural areas. I lived there a time a long time ago and remember driving through rural areas and see dirt courts back then. I don't know how it became popular there and in contrast nobody plays football there, even though the country had Spanish and American colonial influence just like South America.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#65 » by Calvin Klein » Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:17 am

Can you tell us some curious bits about a typical nba game in the 49-50 season?

How was the crowd? Was there any kind of entertainment besides the game itself?
How much was it? Anything you know…

Thanks!!
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#66 » by eminence » Mon Apr 29, 2024 2:28 pm

Curious if you have any insights on what I consider one of the more difficult to understand team results in NBA history:

1951 Olympians with Beard/Groza (both 1st team All-NBA!?!) go 31-37
1952 Olympians with their stars banned go 34-32

Shoutout to Graboski/Tosheff, but I don't think they were replaced by guys we'd consider all-timers, it's one of the largest gaps between accolades/acknowledgement and team success that I know of.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#67 » by Black Jack » Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:28 am

What is going on with the semi demise of young talented Americans and the Euro/Canadian/African takeover? Is it true that it's AAU?

I personally wonder how there aren't any more American Shaq / Wilt / Alcindor type bigs coming out seemingly. Also American guards seem very dependent on athleticism. Other than NBA sons like Curry / Klay, the young guys are mainly Anthony Edwards type athletic phenoms. Okay sure I'm being a bit over the top....we have Tatum I guess....also Chet. But still.

I am not against imports but wonder what is wrong with the American talent pipeline, and is there going to be any move to fix it? should the USA drop all pretense of amateurism, and should the NBA foster a Euro type development pipeline that recruits talented 8=12 yr olds into skills development, signs them to under 18 leagues with a focus on development and contract reset at 18? Also, limiting the # of games played?

Looking at the skills of guys like Jokic and Luka, in the old days those were people like Bird, Magic, Kareem, Walton, etc. Now they all seem to be imports! why is nobody trying to fix this situation?

I always really hated the hypocrisy of the NCAA and under the table payments but I do think that 3-4 years in a college system playing less games under skills focused development was better for big men in particular. I almost feel like the NCAA and NBA should do a deal that lets young guys get paid and stay in college to develop (if they so choose) since the G League is a pure 1-and-done system. Playing only against under other 18-22s had a real upside developmentally I think.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#68 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:54 am

maradro wrote:I'm curious about how the sport developed in a social sense.

Like, what was the profile of the first players, where were the first courts.. I haven't done any research or anything, but I have to assume that it was all mostly upper class given the cost of building a court .. when did public courts start to appear, how/why did schools start incorporating basketball?

I'm from south America, futbol is king here while basketball weve only seen public courts in the last 25 years or so, many schools don't even include it in their phys Ed because they don't have the infrastructure, so it remains a mostly upper class niche sport


I'll jump in and say -- don't overlook the importance of weather. In much of the US for much of year, people do sports either indoors or not at all. Naismith is said to have invented basketball for exactly that reason, but he couldn't have done so had there not been an indoor gymasium with a wooden floor for him to use.

For example, the baseball season and postseason basically run from April through October. And because of weather, nobody thinks it would be a good idea to stretch beyond that.

Well, American football is a special case ...
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#69 » by CM17 » Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:47 pm

Great thread!
Can you tell us something about Robert McDermott, the first player to average 20 ppg in the NBL?
And why wasn't Don Otten a dominant player in the NBA, even though he was the same size as Mikan?
Thanks in advance!
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#70 » by hauntedcomputer » Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:31 pm

Black Jack wrote:
Looking at the skills of guys like Jokic and Luka, in the old days those were people like Bird, Magic, Kareem, Walton, etc. Now they all seem to be imports! why is nobody trying to fix this situation?


Probably because nobody who matters sees it as a problem. It's evolution from small Northern towns in the US to the entire world, as outlined in this thread. RealGM is the only place I've ever heard anyone complain about the best talent in the world getting to play and making the game better.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#71 » by kcktiny » Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:09 pm

My name is Josh Elias and I am a sports historian specializing in integration-era and pre-integration-era professional basketball.


Was curious if you consulted with any of Harvey Pollack (now deceased), Robert Peterson, or Bill Himmelman in the writing of your book.

I've spoken to each multiple times over the many years and found them to be incredibly knowledgeable about the early NBA (and before), and most helpful in aiding anyone doing research on it.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#72 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:45 pm

Is Jokic the most potent offensive force you’ve ever witnessed as a historian and fan of the NBA?
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#73 » by Curmudgeon » Wed May 1, 2024 10:08 pm

So far, the only decent books that covered the early years of the league were the late Leonard Koppett's 24 Seconds to Shoot and Charlie Rosen's The First Tip-Off. I look forward to reading another.
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Re: Live Q&A: Basketball Historian and Author of 'The Birth of the Modern NBA' 

Post#74 » by KayDee35 » Fri May 3, 2024 5:11 pm

What a terrific thread!

Could you speak to the changes in talent recruitment and putting teams together from those eras? For example, when did GMs become standard? When did trading players become a thing? Where there any superteams that were put together through wheeling and dealing? And whom might you consider pioneers in this area?

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