Level of last 20 Champs

[mcmurphy]

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
3) 2013-2014 SAS +10.2
4) 2015-2016 CLE +9.5
5) 2014-2015 GSW +8.2
6) 2008-2009 LAL +8.2
7) 2022-2023 DEN +8.0
8) 2011-2012 MIA +7.4
9) 2003-2004 DET +7.4
10) 2019-2020 LAL +6.9
11) 2012-2013 MIA +6.8
12) 2010-2011 DAL +6.0
13) 2007-2008 BOS +5.9
14) 2018-2019 TOR +5.6
15) 2020-2021 MIL +5.3
16) 2004-2005 SAS +4.9
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

[lessthanjake]

I think the obvious retort to this is that net rating doesn’t take opponent quality into account, and the 2023 Nuggets definitely didn’t face the toughest slate of opponents. If you went by playoff SRS (using opponents’ regular-season SRS as the opponent-quality measure), I think they’d be near the bottom. But then the retort to that would be that they faced teams that were clearly different than their regular season level—the Suns hadn’t had Durant the vast majority of the year, the Lakers had been fantastic after trading Westbrook, Heat seem to clearly be consistently better in the playoffs, etc. And meanwhile, lots of other title winners have faced teams with really major players out, such that those opponents’ regular season SRS probably overstated them. So then that leaves us without clear answers. Ultimately, it is undeniable that the Nuggets had a dominant playoff run. I think it’s also a bit hard to argue that they didn’t have a relatively easy road to the title, in terms of opponents. But I think it was still on the impressive side in terms of title runs.

[lobosloboslobos]

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
3) 2013-2014 SAS +10.2
4) 2015-2016 CLE +9.5
5) 2014-2015 GSW +8.2
6) 2008-2009 LAL +8.2
7) 2022-2023 DEN +8.0
8) 2011-2012 MIA +7.4
9) 2003-2004 DET +7.4
10) 2019-2020 LAL +6.9
11) 2012-2013 MIA +6.8
12) 2010-2011 DAL +6.0
13) 2007-2008 BOS +5.9
14) 2018-2019 TOR +5.6
15) 2020-2021 MIL +5.3
16) 2004-2005 SAS +4.9
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

[og15]

I haven't made any objective analysis of how strong or weak Denver was as a champion as I'm not that concerned about it, you can only play who you play in the end.

I would assume that the push back you might get here (and as I'm writing this, seems like what you got from the first responses) is that NetRtg is based of both your strength as a team and the strength of your opponents.

If one concludes.that Denver had a generally weaker set of opponents then weaker opponents make it easier to have a higher NetRtg. In fact a team going through, for example the WC in the early 2000's could potentially have a lower NetRtg and be a really strong champ because the opponents were very strong.

[Statlanta]

I think they are a mid champion

Even their perfect unbeatable starting 5 has flaws(KCP can't dribble, Murray is a chucker,Porter doesn't pass, Gordon can't shoot, Jokic can't move on defense) just these other teams have way more flaws

[NZB2323]

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
3) 2013-2014 SAS +10.2
4) 2015-2016 CLE +9.5
5) 2014-2015 GSW +8.2
6) 2008-2009 LAL +8.2
7) 2022-2023 DEN +8.0
8) 2011-2012 MIA +7.4
9) 2003-2004 DET +7.4
10) 2019-2020 LAL +6.9
11) 2012-2013 MIA +6.8
12) 2010-2011 DAL +6.0
13) 2007-2008 BOS +5.9
14) 2018-2019 TOR +5.6
15) 2020-2021 MIL +5.3
16) 2004-2005 SAS +4.9
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

You talk about the Raptors facing the best offense, but the Warriors team was depleted from injuries.

[Tor_Raps]

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
3) 2013-2014 SAS +10.2
4) 2015-2016 CLE +9.5
5) 2014-2015 GSW +8.2
6) 2008-2009 LAL +8.2
7) 2022-2023 DEN +8.0
8) 2011-2012 MIA +7.4
9) 2003-2004 DET +7.4
10) 2019-2020 LAL +6.9
11) 2012-2013 MIA +6.8
12) 2010-2011 DAL +6.0
13) 2007-2008 BOS +5.9
14) 2018-2019 TOR +5.6
15) 2020-2021 MIL +5.3
16) 2004-2005 SAS +4.9
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

You talk about the Raptors facing the best offense, but the Warriors team was depleted from injuries.

You're talking about an injury to Durant and another injury to Klay that caused him to miss 1.5 games in the series while the Raptors were missing OG the entire playoffs... rest of the teams the Raptors played were fully healthy.

There are several injuries that other teams get to benefit from each year so part of that is just how things unfold. You don't get "what if" rings.

[SK21209]

I have the 2023 as a Tier 3 Champion. They're not Tier 1, which are the truly iconic teams like the 2001 Lakers, the 2017 Warriors, the 86 Celtics, the 87 Lakers, etc. I also don't think they're a Tier 2 champion, which are teams like the 2014 Spurs, the 2013 Heat, and the 2008 Celtics who were just more dominant over the course of the entire season.

Going back the last few years, I think they're comfortably better than the 2022 Warriors and 2021 Bucks. I think them vs. the 2020 Lakers is pretty even and I'm higher on the 2019 Raptors than most so I think they'd would be a really close contest as well.

[LarsV8]

I have them losing to most of the teams on that list other than maybe 05-06 Heat.

Its a relatively weak area, sorry to say.

[mcmurphy]

As for weak opponents, Minnesota, Phoenix and LAL had a much stronger second half of the season and

Minny turns out that last year's strong showing was no fluke continuing this year
PHO and LAL got rid easily Clippers and Memphis who finished in 2nd place

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
...
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

... at least offensively, the NetRtg It also takes defense into account

[AleksandarN]

I look forward to another thread if they win back to back. Probably start off like this is the worse back to back champions ever. The saltiness of some I look forward to it.

[NZB2323]

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

You talk about the Raptors facing the best offense, but the Warriors team was depleted from injuries.

You're talking about an injury to Durant and another injury to Klay that caused him to miss 1.5 games in the series while the Raptors were missing OG the entire playoffs... rest of the teams the Raptors played were fully healthy.

There are several injuries that other teams get to benefit from each year so part of that is just how things unfold. You don't get "what if" rings.

I’m not doing that, but you also don’t get to say 2019 Raptors > 2023 Nuggets because they faced top offenses when the Warriors were injured and every team the Nuggets played was healthy.

I’m against diminishing champions in general, whether it’s the 2019 Raptors or 2023 Nuggets, but I find it especially strange that people keep diminishing the 2023 Nuggets when they went 16-4 in the playoffs.

[mcmurphy]

I have the 2023 as a Tier 3 Champion. They're not Tier 1, which are the truly iconic teams like the 2001 Lakers, the 2017 Warriors, the 86 Celtics, the 87 Lakers, etc. I also don't think they're a Tier 2 champion, which are teams like the 2014 Spurs, the 2013 Heat, and the 2008 Celtics who were just more dominant over the course of the entire season.

Going back the last few years, I think they're comfortably better than the 2022 Warriors and 2021 Bucks. I think them vs. the 2020 Lakers is pretty even and I'm higher on the 2019 Raptors than most so I think they'd would be a really close contest as well.

I agree with the Tier 1...
no way the 2013 Heat and 2008 BOS was so dominant despite the 66 wins in the weak East Conference and it showed in playoff

[In-N-Out 247]

I look forward to another thread if they win back to back. Probably start off like this is the worse back to back champions ever. The saltiness of some I look forward to it.

It comes with the territory so get used to it (assuming you're a Nuggets fan).

Anytime the Lakers win it's some sort of grand conspiracy.

[Tor_Raps]

You talk about the Raptors facing the best offense, but the Warriors team was depleted from injuries.

You're talking about an injury to Durant and another injury to Klay that caused him to miss 1.5 games in the series while the Raptors were missing OG the entire playoffs... rest of the teams the Raptors played were fully healthy.

There are several injuries that other teams get to benefit from each year so part of that is just how things unfold. You don't get "what if" rings.

I’m not doing that, but you also don’t get to say 2019 Raptors > 2023 Nuggets because they faced top offenses when the Warriors were injured and every team the Nuggets played was healthy.

I’m against diminishing champions in general, whether it’s the 2019 Raptors or 2023 Nuggets, but I find it especially strange that people keep diminishing the 2023 Nuggets when they went 16-4 in the playoffs.

Oh I'm def not doing that. I friggin love this Nuggets team and consider Jokic on pace to be a top 10 player of all time. I do agree that you cant just use net rating to determine a final conclusion but it definitely provides some value.

[HotelVitale]

I think they are a mid champion

Even their perfect unbeatable starting 5 has flaws(KCP can't dribble, Murray is a chucker,Porter doesn't pass, Gordon can't shoot, Jokic can't move on defense) just these other teams have way more flaws

If these count as significant flaws, which teams haven't had similar things? Also can you really be a 'chucker' when you're at 47/40/90 in 60 career PO games?

[lobosloboslobos]

As for weak opponents, Minnesota, Phoenix and LAL had a much stronger second half of the season and

Minny turns out that last year's strong showing was no fluke continuing this year
PHO and LAL got rid easily Clippers and Memphis who finished in 2nd place

Reading users here and there who say that Denver is one of the weakest champions of recent years, I went to check the NetRtg in playoff run of the last 20 Champions, ordering them in descending order.
I got this list which in my opinion is very truthful.

1) 2016-2017 GSW +12.9
2) 2017-2018 GSW +10.7
...
17) 2021-2022 GSW +4.9
18) 2006-2007 SAS +4.3
19) 2009-2010 LAL +4.3
20) 2005-2006 MIA +3.5

So the Nuggets run is in the upper half of the list.

One problem with this ranking is that it doesn't take into account the opposition faced along the way, which varies a lot year to year. Like sure the Raptors have only a +5.6 Net Rtg, (14th on this list) but they faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses in the league on their title run, which is by far tougher than what any of the other teams on that list had to deal with, at least offensively.

... at least offensively, the NetRtg It also takes defense into account

Come on, Raptors faced the 1st, 2nd and 4th best offenses (PPG) and the 1st, 8th, 13th and 15th best rated defenses
Nuggets faced the 6th, 12th, 16th and 24th offenses and the 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th defenses

yes Nuggets maybe faced slightly tougher defensive teams overall but the Raps faced waaay tougher offenses.

Not one of the teams the Nuggets faced was in the top 5 of the league in either offense or defense. Raps beat 2 that were and a 3rd that was top 5 in both (Milwaukee). Yes you can only play who's in front of you and I'm not taking anything away from the Nuggets. But that Raptors team is generally way underrated. This list has them at 14th and that's a joke.