Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[Godymas]

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

Ignore him - he's just baiting and trolling at this point. I was out walking the dogs when i read the part about:

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate.

Ah yes, a guy who has a career WS/48 of .106 is an all-star level teammate. Last year, Murray carried a WS/48 of .116 and a BPM of 1.3 which is in line with what a 22 year old Tyrese Maxey was doing as a 3rd/4th option in Philly (.117 WS/48, 2.2 BPM) - and that's Jokic's best teammate.

Gody and the rest of the Embiid stans don't want to admit that Jokic is literally a one man unit raising his teammates to levels they'd never achieve without Jokic basically cosplaying as both Magic and Kareem (in the words of the legendary James Worthy).

They see a game winning shot and think "hur dur he's an all star!" without realizing that the game winning shot was needed because Murray couldn't hit a bucket all game and put them in the situation.

Also referencing the Lakers series is laughable seeing as how Jokic literally got mauled left and right with no calls except in Game 2 where he shot like 10. So of course they'll use that series where Jokic had 5 fouls in 3 games and 4 fouls in the other 2 games - a series where officiating beyond a measure of doubt favored the Lakers as the one and only playoff failure of Jokic's career. Otherwise, he's in pantheon of GOATs as he raises his game to another level in the playoffs only to be let down by teammates time-after-time.

you know your argument is really bad when you have to use career WS/48 and quote last seasons #s. Why don't you quote Jamal Murray's WS/48 this season? How about in the playoffs last year?

[Iwasawitness]

Respectfully, I should have known by your 'username' that this is where you would be going.

And that’s supposed to mean, what exactly? That my input in this matter can’t be taken seriously because LeBron is my all time favorite player? I’ve always wondered why that fact means we should automatically group everyone in the same bucket… of people who are clueless and thus don’t know what they’re talking about. There are a reasons why people become fans of players to begin with, and they aren’t all the same. Keep in mind that I grew up in Cincinnati. I have no loyalty to Cleveland and the Cavs are the only team from there I’m a legitimate fan of (hey Reds, see what the Guardians are doing? MORE OF THAT PLEASE).

Whom I stan over doesn’t make the point I make any less correct. Trying to go this route is a pathetic attempt at dismissing someone’s credibility. A more valid way to do that would be to point out how dumb something they’re saying is, like Jokic’s ring being better than anything LeBron had.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Back to his ultra stacked team and where he last won his league MVP, over 10 years ago.

Ah yes, his ultra stacked team, which was so stacked that Dwayne Wade literally made them worse in the playoffs when he was on the floor and Chris Bosh scored 0 points in game 7 of that years finals and got locked up by Tim Duncan.

Let’s make something clear: yes, that 2013 Heat team was loaded, but I think you’re overrating them in that regard. Let’s keep going.

Jokic has already done more with less than LBJ did prior to his decision

First off no he didn’t. Jokic’s teams are very much better than anything LeBron had pre-decision, so no, he has not done more with less. It’s not even close. Going on that for a moment, where is Jokic’s season where he carried an all time worst supporting cast to an NBA finals? Where are his back to back 60 win seasons with meh supporting casts? Your claim that he did more with less is not based on anything substantial and quite frankly, reality is painting a very different picture. Jokic had far better teams, and yet he needed the easiest path to an NBA finals just to win one. Sounds to me like the opposite happened if anything.

Second, what does this have to do with 2013? I really hope the rest of your post isn’t you avoiding the very simple question I asked.

and all while the league over this same 10 year period in growth is supposedly now 'the most modern and athletic era ever'.

… you’re going to avoid it aren’t you?

Jokic hardly has the overall cast of 13 Miami (but they certaily do look it ) but let's give him time and see if Luca/Giannis eventually team up with him.

Well we’ve made a little bit of progress. You’ve at least MENTIONED the 2013 Heat again, but for some reason chose to ignore how much better Jokic’s supporting cast in 2023 was than LeBron’s in 2013 (I’m sure LeBron would have loved to have a teammate who had three 30+ point performances in 2013, oh well, can’t all be as lucky as Jokic).

Again, Jokic's run just happened so tell me why you already have to go to LBJ's peak year (some may have 09) just to compete with 23 Jokic if it's a no-brainer?

You think that’s LeBron’s most difficult path to a title? Quite the contrary. Compared to 2012 (back to back playoff series that went down game 7, one against the still elite Celtics and the top ranked defense in the league followed by the favored OKC Thunder in the finals) and 2016 (LeBron had an easier run through the playoffs with the 56 win Raptors with a 4.08 SRS being their only challenge before they had to overcome the historically great 73 win Warriors), 2013 is much easier. They’re both the same in regards to what they did for LeBron’s legacy. He had to put up an all time performance in the playoffs to get Miami past the Celtics, on top of coming up big time and time again against OKC in the finals. And I don’t think I need to explain 2016. I could have very easily gone any those routes if I wanted but I wanted to test your knowledge, at least try to give you the benefit of the doubt and see if there was some unfounded reason I’m not considering as to why anyone in their right mind would have such a brain dead opinion. So far you’re giving me every reason to not give you any benefit as all you’ve done is dodge the question.

Jokic simply allows the flow of the game to maximize his teammates without it being his system and this is why he'll continue to dominate, barring injury, especially as his teammates improve under him and/or his organization makes more trades to strengthen the team.

You are acting like everything the Nuggets accomplish is due to Jokic. In reality, as others have mentioned here, they aren’t title contenders without Murray and Porter. And to take that one step further, the Nuggets never would have reached these heights had they not made the trade for Aaron Gordon. Acquiring him changed everything and it allowed them to maximize Jokic’s talents. He’s such a perfect fit, as are Murray and Porter.

Man, I’m sure LeBron would have loved to have had multiple high impact players who fit his talents to perfection and could be relied on when needed during his first run in Cleveland. But what do I know? Jokic was the one who did more with less, right? I’ve said this before, but just imagine what LeBron would have done if he had Murray/Porter/Gordon or three players of that caliber with a perfect fit while in Cleveland. Oh well.

But if you're stuck on 13 Miami, then let's mark this post and wait a few years to see what Denver does and then we can revisit as we may not have even seen true 'peak' Jokic yet.

So let me get this straight.

You just spent two entire paragraphs avoiding the question… and then in the end you don’t even answer it. Do you understand how this looks? I gave you the platform, purposely made it easier as I could have went with more difficult title years (2012, 2016), and yet you still couldn’t answer my question. And don’t pretend like you did, because you clearly didn’t. What Jokic does five years from now has nothing to do with 2023 and what we’re talking about.

And it is with this that I find myself again wondering how anyone could possibly take you seriously as a poster.

But I’ll tell you what: I’ll give you one more chance. So I’ll ask the question again: how and why is Jokic’s 2023 run better than LeBron’s 2013 run?

[lessthanjake]

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

I know I didn’t just see someone try to claim that Larry Hughes was a good player in 2007. Larry Hughes was so bad that year that Mike Brown got annoyed and eventually took him out of the starting lineup DURING THE FINALS. He averaged 15 PPG on ridiculously bad efficiency. He would usually kill our offense with poor decision making and sloppy play, and this was before LeBron became egotistical so he didn’t do anything about it. Big Z was pretty much a one legged man at that point and was only good for standing in the corner to hit jumpers and protect the rim. Drew Gooden was decent, he had the mid ranger and was mobile but overall nothing to write home about.

Anderson Varejao… oh man. This is how you can tell when someone wasn’t watching the team at the time. I’m going to fill you in on a little secret… but the only reason Anderson even got playing time in 2007 is because the Cavs pretty much didn’t have a choice. He had almost no offensive game to the point where asking him to dribble the ball so he could move over a couple of feet was a frightening sight to see. He couldn’t post up, he had no jumper, he was a terrible passer, and he got very nervous whenever he had the ball. His only saving grace is that he was a decent off ball cutter, which benefited him greatly since he was playing with LeBron who was excellent at finding him for scoring opportunities.

Eventually, all the time spent into him paid off and he became a great rebounding forward with a crafty offensive game and very good defense. But it took time to get there. He was anything but a good player in 2007, far from it.

All of that stuff can be accurate at the same time as it is the case that there is no comparison between the 2007 Cavs and the 2022 Nuggets. That’s how bad the 2022 Nuggets were. (And by the way, on the one thing you really disagreed with me on, I’m very well acquainted with Larry Hughes as a player, and you’re missing the defense piece of things, which was always his strong suit, and which was the strong suit of that 2007 Cavs team as a whole—they were bad defensively and Hughes’s inefficient scoring wasn’t a help, but they were genuinely great defensively and Hughes was a major piece of that).

[Iwasawitness]

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

I know I didn’t just see someone try to claim that Larry Hughes was a good player in 2007. Larry Hughes was so bad that year that Mike Brown got annoyed and eventually took him out of the starting lineup DURING THE FINALS. He averaged 15 PPG on ridiculously bad efficiency. He would usually kill our offense with poor decision making and sloppy play, and this was before LeBron became egotistical so he didn’t do anything about it. Big Z was pretty much a one legged man at that point and was only good for standing in the corner to hit jumpers and protect the rim. Drew Gooden was decent, he had the mid ranger and was mobile but overall nothing to write home about.

Anderson Varejao… oh man. This is how you can tell when someone wasn’t watching the team at the time. I’m going to fill you in on a little secret… but the only reason Anderson even got playing time in 2007 is because the Cavs pretty much didn’t have a choice. He had almost no offensive game to the point where asking him to dribble the ball so he could move over a couple of feet was a frightening sight to see. He couldn’t post up, he had no jumper, he was a terrible passer, and he got very nervous whenever he had the ball. His only saving grace is that he was a decent off ball cutter, which benefited him greatly since he was playing with LeBron who was excellent at finding him for scoring opportunities.

Eventually, all the time spent into him paid off and he became a great rebounding forward with a crafty offensive game and very good defense. But it took time to get there. He was anything but a good player in 2007, far from it.

All of that stuff can be accurate at the same time as it is the case that there is no comparison between the 2007 Cavs and the 2022 Nuggets. That’s how bad the 2022 Nuggets were.

You can definitely argue that the 2007 Cavs outside LeBron are worse than the 2022 Nuggets outside Jokic. You can also make the case the other way around. To say there’s no comparison is an outright lie.

[lessthanjake]

I know I didn’t just see someone try to claim that Larry Hughes was a good player in 2007. Larry Hughes was so bad that year that Mike Brown got annoyed and eventually took him out of the starting lineup DURING THE FINALS. He averaged 15 PPG on ridiculously bad efficiency. He would usually kill our offense with poor decision making and sloppy play, and this was before LeBron became egotistical so he didn’t do anything about it. Big Z was pretty much a one legged man at that point and was only good for standing in the corner to hit jumpers and protect the rim. Drew Gooden was decent, he had the mid ranger and was mobile but overall nothing to write home about.

Anderson Varejao… oh man. This is how you can tell when someone wasn’t watching the team at the time. I’m going to fill you in on a little secret… but the only reason Anderson even got playing time in 2007 is because the Cavs pretty much didn’t have a choice. He had almost no offensive game to the point where asking him to dribble the ball so he could move over a couple of feet was a frightening sight to see. He couldn’t post up, he had no jumper, he was a terrible passer, and he got very nervous whenever he had the ball. His only saving grace is that he was a decent off ball cutter, which benefited him greatly since he was playing with LeBron who was excellent at finding him for scoring opportunities.

Eventually, all the time spent into him paid off and he became a great rebounding forward with a crafty offensive game and very good defense. But it took time to get there. He was anything but a good player in 2007, far from it.

All of that stuff can be accurate at the same time as it is the case that there is no comparison between the 2007 Cavs and the 2022 Nuggets. That’s how bad the 2022 Nuggets were.

You can definitely argue that the 2007 Cavs outside LeBron are worse than the 2022 Nuggets outside Jokic. You can also make the case the other way around. To say there’s no comparison is an outright lie.

No, it’s not. The 2007 Cavs were a team with quality NBA players that were one of the very best defenses in the league (while LeBron was not quite yet a truly elite defender at that point in his career, so this really wasn’t just about him). The supporting cast was genuinely great defensively. The 2022 Nuggets supporting cast was awful at everything. There’s no comparison whatsoever.

[bledredwine]

Offensively, definitely.

It's very important to have a reliable post/midrange game. You're then lethal in all phases of the game.

[tsherkin]

Offensively, definitely.

It's very important to have a reliable post/midrange game. You're then lethal in all phases of the game.

Lebron's midrange game was never an issue and he has had at least a semblance of a post game since 2012. He has been actively and regularly using the mid ans low block since then, even more since his second go with the Cavs and then with the Lakers.

His issues have been with 3pt shooting and at the line.

[lakerz12]

What's up with these Jokic threads?

Y'all trying to make this dude the GOAT overnight with just 1 championship is crazy. Just relax and let it play out.

Stop comparing him to LeBron it's just not the right time to have that discussion. People tried to do the same with Giannis and look how they turned out.

There's also a thread with some posters saying Edwards is equal or above Kobe and Wade or close to it .. . so take that for what you will

[Iwasawitness]

All of that stuff can be accurate at the same time as it is the case that there is no comparison between the 2007 Cavs and the 2022 Nuggets. That’s how bad the 2022 Nuggets were.

You can definitely argue that the 2007 Cavs outside LeBron are worse than the 2022 Nuggets outside Jokic. You can also make the case the other way around. To say there’s no comparison is an outright lie.

No, it’s not. The 2007 Cavs were a team with quality NBA players that were one of the very best defenses in the league (while LeBron was not quite yet a truly elite defender at that point in his career, so this really wasn’t just about him). The supporting cast was genuinely great defensively. The 2022 Nuggets supporting cast was awful at everything. There’s no comparison whatsoever.

The Cavs were a naturally long team, it was very easy for them to provide coverage at the rim. And it helped that their only legitimately great defender, Eric Snow, was manning the PG spot. From a personal standpoint, the Cavs weren’t loaded defensively by any means.

Meanwhile you’re out here crapping on the Nuggets cast outside Jokic… Barton, Gordon, Green, these are very solid players. Morris and Hyland provided key offense as well. The 2023 Nuggets are one of the very few teams in NBA history to have six players average double digits in PPG while playing at least 65 games.

No one is denying that the 22 Nuggets have an argument over the 07 Cavs. You’re pretending the gap is massive. It’s not. Don’t talk about time periods you clearly didn’t watch, let alone pretend you’re an expert on it.

[IG2]

Hughes’s inefficient scoring wasn’t a help, but they were genuinely great defensively and Hughes was a major piece of that).

On/Off doesn't even have 2007 Hughes as a plus defender. More importantly, even if he was some plus defender, he was so incomprehensibly bad offensively (11 ppg @ 35% FG in playoffs) that it offset whatever he did on the other end. Cleveland actually caught a huge break when he got injured in the Detroit series and his playing time got significantly reduced. They don't win that series with Hughes playing his regular minutes.

The 2007 Cavs were a team with quality NBA players

How do you expect to be taken seriously with a comment like that.

Cleveland's starting lineup outside of LeBron featured Ilgauskas, Gooden, Hughes and Snow. Only 1 of those guys actually had a positive on/off. Gooden and Snow were at -8.2 and -6.2, respectively. This team made the freaking Finals and was starting at least 2-3 guys who wouldn't have started on any winning team in the NBA.

A far better argument against lauding LeBron too much for 2007 would be the state of the Eastern Conference that season.

[JustBuzzin]

What's up with these Jokic threads?

Y'all trying to make this dude the GOAT overnight with just 1 championship is crazy. Just relax and let it play out.

Stop comparing him to LeBron it's just not the right time to have that discussion. People tried to do the same with Giannis and look how they turned out.

There's also a thread with some posters saying Edwards is equal or above Kobe and Wade or close to it .. . so take that for what you will

That's one thread.

These Jokic threads are a daily thing.

[LaLover11]

What's up with these Jokic threads?

Y'all trying to make this dude the GOAT overnight with just 1 championship is crazy. Just relax and let it play out.

Stop comparing him to LeBron it's just not the right time to have that discussion. People tried to do the same with Giannis and look how they turned out.

There's also a thread with some posters saying Edwards is equal or above Kobe and Wade or close to it .. . so take that for what you will

That's one thread.

These Jokic threads are a daily thing.

The real question is: Can Paul George ever be better than Dinwiddie

[bledredwine]

Offensively, definitely.

It's very important to have a reliable post/midrange game. You're then lethal in all phases of the game.

Lebron's midrange game was never an issue and he has had at least a semblance of a post game since 2012. He has been actively and regularly using the mid ans low block since then, even more since his second go with the Cavs and then with the Lakers.

His issues have been with 3pt shooting and at the line.

Lebron's shot in the 30 percentile from midrange his whole career and it gets even worse in the playoffs (still in the 30's, but a declined 30's). He's he's never had an effective back-to-the-basket game.

It's part of the reason Jokic has better control of the game. I just don't see the argument for Lebron being a better offensive player. Lebron's better at driving but that's really it.

[LaLover11]

Offensively, definitely.

It's very important to have a reliable post/midrange game. You're then lethal in all phases of the game.

Lebron's midrange game was never an issue and he has had at least a semblance of a post game since 2012. He has been actively and regularly using the mid ans low block since then, even more since his second go with the Cavs and then with the Lakers.

His issues have been with 3pt shooting and at the line.

Lebron's shot in the 30 percentile from midrange his whole career and it gets even worse in the playoffs (still in the 30's, but a declined 30's). He's he's never had an effective back-to-the-basket game.

It's part of the reason Jokic has better control of the game. I just don't see the argument for Lebron being a better offensive player. Lebron's better at driving but that's really it.

40k Points and #1 all time scorer of all time

That alone makes LeBron a better scorer than Jokic

Jokic is not a better scorer than LeBron lmao

[The Explorer]

Lebron's midrange game was never an issue and he has had at least a semblance of a post game since 2012. He has been actively and regularly using the mid ans low block since then, even more since his second go with the Cavs and then with the Lakers.

His issues have been with 3pt shooting and at the line.

Lebron's shot in the 30 percentile from midrange his whole career and it gets even worse in the playoffs (still in the 30's, but a declined 30's). He's he's never had an effective back-to-the-basket game.

It's part of the reason Jokic has better control of the game. I just don't see the argument for Lebron being a better offensive player. Lebron's better at driving but that's really it.

40k Points and #1 all time scorer of all time

That alone makes LeBron a better scorer than Jokic

Jokic is not a better scorer than LeBron lmao

What kind of logic is this? So Karl Malone is a better scorer than Michael Jordan?

[lessthanjake]

You can definitely argue that the 2007 Cavs outside LeBron are worse than the 2022 Nuggets outside Jokic. You can also make the case the other way around. To say there’s no comparison is an outright lie.

No, it’s not. The 2007 Cavs were a team with quality NBA players that were one of the very best defenses in the league (while LeBron was not quite yet a truly elite defender at that point in his career, so this really wasn’t just about him). The supporting cast was genuinely great defensively. The 2022 Nuggets supporting cast was awful at everything. There’s no comparison whatsoever.

The Cavs were a naturally long team, it was very easy for them to provide coverage at the rim. And it helped that their only legitimately great defender, Eric Snow, was manning the PG spot. From a personal standpoint, the Cavs weren’t loaded defensively by any means.

Meanwhile you’re out here crapping on the Nuggets cast outside Jokic… Barton, Gordon, Green, these are very solid players. Morris and Hyland provided key offense as well. The 2023 Nuggets are one of the very few teams in NBA history to have six players average double digits in PPG while playing at least 65 games.

No one is denying that the 22 Nuggets have an argument over the 07 Cavs. You’re pretending the gap is massive. It’s not. Don’t talk about time periods you clearly didn’t watch, let alone pretend you’re an expert on it.

Lol, don’t make baseless assumptions. I watched (and rooted for) the 2007 Cavs. In fact, I’ve watched every single team LeBron James ever played for, going all the way back to his rookie year (and have rooted for his team in every playoff series he’s ever played, except ones against Steph and Jokic). The reality is that the 2007 Cavs were a genuinely great defensive team. This is not deniable. They were a fantastic defense in the regular season (for reference, the team had the 2nd best rDRTG of any LeBron team, only a bit behind the 2009 Cavs—which featured a defensively-superior LeBron compared to 2007). And when it came to the playoffs, they were even better, with one of the best playoff rDRTGs in NBA history (28th all-time, and easily the best of any LeBron team). And they did this before LeBron’s defensive peak years. The 2007 Cavs supporting cast was genuinely elite defensively. There’s really no viable argument otherwise. And that by itself makes there be no comparison whatsoever with the 2022 Nuggets—who were a bad supporting cast in every way. This really just shouldn’t be a discussion at all. I’m shocked to hear it even be argued. The 2007 Cavs supporting cast wasn’t very good overall (because, despite their elite defense, they were not a strong team offensively), but they were very obviously substantially better than the 2022 Nuggets.

Hughes’s inefficient scoring wasn’t a help, but they were genuinely great defensively and Hughes was a major piece of that).

On/Off doesn't even have 2007 Hughes as a plus defender. More importantly, even if he was some plus defender, he was so incomprehensibly bad offensively (11 ppg @ 35% FG in playoffs) that it offset whatever he did on the other end. Cleveland actually caught a huge break when he got injured in the Detroit series and his playing time got significantly reduced. They don't win that series with Hughes playing his regular minutes.

The roster was defensively slanted, so on-off won’t necessarily tell us whether someone was a good defender or not. The team had a 101.7 DRTG with Hughes on the court, which is extremely good. Anyways, I agree that Hughes wasn’t good for most of the playoffs (though he was actually good in the first round against his old team). But I was talking more generally, including the regular season as well. And if we wanted to talk about the playoffs specifically, what made the 2007 Cavaliers do so well was the fact that their defense did *extremely* well—indeed, they had the 28th best playoff rDRTG all time, and it was the 11th best ever amongst teams that actually made the Finals, as well as the best rDRTG of any team in the 2007 playoffs. Obviously, that was a team effort. The idea that the supporting cast of a team was awful when the team had one of the best playoff defenses ever (despite their star player not actually being in his defensive peak years) is pretty dubious. And it is certainly dubious when compared to a team as all-around bad as the 2022 Nuggets.

The 2007 Cavs were a team with quality NBA players

How do you expect to be taken seriously with a comment like that.

Cleveland's starting lineup outside of LeBron featured Ilgauskas, Gooden, Hughes and Snow. Only 1 of those guys actually had a positive on/off. Gooden and Snow were at -8.2 and -6.2, respectively. This team made the freaking Finals and was starting at least 2-3 guys who wouldn't have started on any winning team in the NBA.

A far better argument against lauding LeBron too much for 2007 would be the state of the Eastern Conference that season.

You’re judging a team’s quality by the on-off of the players on it, without realizing that on-off is a zero sum game within a team. Definitionally, some people on the team will have positive on-offs and some will have negative on-offs. You could put together a team of the 15 greatest players in history in their prime, and some would have negative on-offs, and you could put together a team of 80-year-olds and some would have positive on-offs.

Anyways, the reality here is that the 2007 Cavs were an objectively elite team defensively. And since defense is inherently a team-wide endeavor (not to mention that LeBron himself wasn’t in his defensive peak years yet), the supporting cast was clearly playing elite defense. They played elite defense in the regular season, and they played even more elite defense in the playoffs. They were not a good supporting cast offensively. But when your team has easily the best defense in the playoffs (which they did—an even better playoff rDRTG than the Spurs), after being one of the top few defenses in the regular season, it is clear that the supporting cast is not awful. And they’re certainly not awful compared to the 2022 Nuggets supporting cast, which was bad at everything. I don’t even see how this is a discussion.

[LaLover11]

Lebron's shot in the 30 percentile from midrange his whole career and it gets even worse in the playoffs (still in the 30's, but a declined 30's). He's he's never had an effective back-to-the-basket game.

It's part of the reason Jokic has better control of the game. I just don't see the argument for Lebron being a better offensive player. Lebron's better at driving but that's really it.

40k Points and #1 all time scorer of all time

That alone makes LeBron a better scorer than Jokic

Jokic is not a better scorer than LeBron lmao

What kind of logic is this? So Karl Malone is a better scorer than Michael Jordan?

Karl Malone was a great offensive scorer idk what you're talking about.

If Jordan didn't have his team success "rings" that makes you & a lot others believe he never missed a shot.

Yes technically Malone was a better scorer for more seasons than MJ

[lakerz12]

What's up with these Jokic threads?

Y'all trying to make this dude the GOAT overnight with just 1 championship is crazy. Just relax and let it play out.

Stop comparing him to LeBron it's just not the right time to have that discussion. People tried to do the same with Giannis and look how they turned out.

There's also a thread with some posters saying Edwards is equal or above Kobe and Wade or close to it .. . so take that for what you will

That's one thread.

These Jokic threads are a daily thing.

Okay but the point was the outrageousness of the content.

Wasn’t disagreeing with you…

[The Explorer]

40k Points and #1 all time scorer of all time

That alone makes LeBron a better scorer than Jokic

Jokic is not a better scorer than LeBron lmao

What kind of logic is this? So Karl Malone is a better scorer than Michael Jordan?

Karl Malone was a great offensive scorer idk what you're talking about.

If Jordan didn't have his team success "rings" that makes you & a lot others believe he never missed a shot.

I think you didn't read the reply properly. I said your logic necessitates that Malone is better than MJ as a scorer. Further, Russell Westbrook is better than Larry Bird as a scorer according to your logic. Is Paul Pierce a better scorer than Harden too?

Yes technically Malone was a better scorer for more seasons than MJ

You're going to have to explain this

[LaLover11]

What kind of logic is this? So Karl Malone is a better scorer than Michael Jordan?

Karl Malone was a great offensive scorer idk what you're talking about.

If Jordan didn't have his team success "rings" that makes you & a lot others believe he never missed a shot.

I think you didn't read the reply properly. I said your logic necessitates that Malone is better than MJ as a scorer. Further, Russell Westbrook is better than Larry Bird as a scorer according to your logic. Is Paul Pierce a better scorer than Harden too?

Yes technically Malone was a better scorer for more seasons than MJ

You're going to have to explain this

Paul Pierce is definitely a better scorer than Harden are you kidding me? Take Hardens whistle away and he becomes average