Jokic's great, but Lebron's style of play is overrated in terms of championship/playoff impact.

[One_and_Done]

The jimmy butler led heat have been to 2 of the last 4 finals while being swept in the finals by the west. Why is no one saying butler is the best player in the east for this accomplishment? Because the east is weak as hell and really is an afterthought.

Butler's 20, 22 & 23 play-offs runs are more impressive carry jobs than anything Kobe has ever done.

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

Kobe just happened to be on the title favourites most years, and he still lost often.

[PedroFlu]

The jimmy butler led heat have been to 2 of the last 4 finals while being swept in the finals by the west. Why is no one saying butler is the best player in the east for this accomplishment? Because the east is weak as hell and really is an afterthought.

Butler's 20, 22 & 23 play-offs runs are more impressive carry jobs than anything Kobe has ever done.

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

Jesus, someone kill this with fire. This flaming **** being thrown around. Topic is so pathetic it might get blocked

[ballzboyee]

OP is a pathetic attempt at trolling, oportunistically trying to kick a down dog.

While I agree that LeBron has leadership problems and is nowadays a much more limited player than his stats say, the problem is media/public opinion need stg to talk about, so they overrate him and his team, only to be put down again.

The incredible thing is, guy may have another run next season. He's incredibly stubborn/obsessed, and will run it until wheels fall off - it's cool to see. I mean, even if he pouts during some games, he never - ever - gives up between games, series and seasons.

Tough on him, he gave his best shot and again fell off.

Nonsense. Called this exact scenario a few weeks ago:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2369993

Like I said then, it would be better for his legacy to miss the playoffs since they were getting swept in the first round anyway by either Minny or Denver, and Lebron is terrible in the playoffs against contending teams. How can I be kicking him while he's down when I predicted the outcome? Not that it makes me Nostradamus or anything, but it's sort of funny when you have people claiming that Lebron is going to go on some kind of mythical ride-off-into-the-sunset championship run when his whole career he has not been able to beat other championship level rosters in the playoffs.

[EmpireFalls]

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

Hey genius, Kobe won a grand total of exactly two playoff series after turning 31. And not for a lack of help either, with the run it back defending champs in 2011 and then with Nash and Dwight (at least on paper)

[ballzboyee]

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

Hey genius, Kobe won a grand total of exactly two playoff series after turning 31. And not for a lack of help either, with the run it back defending champs in 2011 and then with Nash and Dwight (at least on paper)

I can't deny that Lebron definitely has the longevity argument over any other player in history -- not just Kobe. Everybody knows Lebron spends literally a gorillion dollars on his body with the sterilized vitamin gummies, traditional style toe massages, daily acupuncture with wooden needles, and state of the art breakfast ice baths where he eats organic wild oats cereal and denatured free range turkey sausage.

[Evenacus]

Lebron's style of play maximizes his impact while reducing the impact of the other players on his team. It's like a heliocentric system where LeBron does everything he wants and reducing most of his teammates to corner shooters, the only exceptions being centers, due to the fact that LBJ don't wanna play as a center. Other superstars he might play with also see their production reduced and their role modified to fit with his style. You can see that with Davis, as he never takes over towards the end of the game, as he doesn't have the mentality and knows he should defer to LeBron in those moments.
You could say that Denver actually plays a complete opposite style, with all players being included and jumping out at certain points of the match with their influence.
With the decline of LeBron I just don't see how his style could win against the style that this Denver team is playing with.

[ChipotleWest]

You gotta be trolling. You seriously spent this much time laying out something this ridiculous? Go out and touch some grass, man. James has played in more playoff games than anyone else in NBA history and his game isn't built for the playoffs? If that were true, he wouldn't have so many deep runs.

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

You've got to be kidding me, you're comparing Lebron's teams over his entire career to Jordan's teams before he had Scottie. There was no other 15 ppg scorer on that team that season, while Jordan averaged 37. Celtics had Bird averaging 28, McHale averaging 26 and Parish averaging 17, and all 3 averaged around 10 rebounds. Clearly a better team than Jordan's no debate. Since we're going to get ridiculous, why did Lebron miss the playoffs the first two years? Maybe because no one can do it by themselves. Maybe because context matters, maybe because your teammates matter.

[EmpireFalls]

LBJ didn’t play anything close to heliocentric ball in 2012 or 2013, it’s actually quite funny to see this retconning. Although when he did actually play “LeBron ball” with Wade off, the Heat were ludicrously effective with it.

[Marrrcuss]

OP is a pathetic attempt at trolling, oportunistically trying to kick a down dog.

While I agree that LeBron has leadership problems and is nowadays a much more limited player than his stats say, the problem is media/public opinion need stg to talk about, so they overrate him and his team, only to be put down again.

The incredible thing is, guy may have another run next season. He's incredibly stubborn/obsessed, and will run it until wheels fall off - it's cool to see. I mean, even if he pouts during some games, he never - ever - gives up between games, series and seasons.

Tough on him, he gave his best shot and again fell off.

Nonsense. Called this exact scenario a few weeks ago:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2369993

Like I said then, it would be better for his legacy to miss the playoffs since they were getting swept in the first round anyway by either Minny or Denver, and Lebron is terrible in the playoffs against contending teams. How can I be kicking him while he's down when I predicted the outcome? Not that it makes me Nostradamus or anything, but it's sort of funny when you have people claiming that Lebron is going to go on some kind of mythical ride-off-into-the-sunset championship run when his whole career he has not been able to beat other championship level rosters in the playoffs.

Ahhh, so its not better to not make the playoffs than it is to lose in the first round.

This, after lebron haters have proclaimed its better to not make it to the NBA finals than it is to lose there.

Yall are such a bright bunch.

[Marrrcuss]

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

Hey genius, Kobe won a grand total of exactly two playoff series after turning 31. And not for a lack of help either, with the run it back defending champs in 2011 and then with Nash and Dwight (at least on paper)

I can't deny that Lebron definitely has the longevity argument over any other player in history -- not just Kobe. Everybody knows Lebron spends literally a gorillion dollars on his body with the sterilized vitamin gummies, traditional style toe massages, daily acupuncture with wooden needles, and state of the art breakfast ice baths where he eats organic wild oats cereal and denatured free range turkey sausage.

[bledredwine]

It's overstated but OP has a point that I've been making for years. Forget
about low playoff impact - obviously that's not true. But at the highest level against contenders? I agree.

Lebron is definitely not the ideal system player. It's Lebron ball wherever he goes.
To be a great system player and ceiling raiser, you either have to have a role or to have a reliable shot.
Is the Lebron system the best system to win it all? Probably not, based on what we've seen.
So as much hate as OP is getting from the fans, he is touching upon a truth as well.

Compare that with Durant, for example, who's literally the opposite play style. He doesn't have any point
skills and I'd draft Lebron to my team 10/10 times to maximize trash talent..... but Durant was the quintessential ceiling raiser and system player on Golden State. Like Anthony Davis, he can put up great stats without relying on playing on-ball point.
Of course Golden State was stacked, but the Heat would have been considered just as stacked, if not for their struggles from 2011
and on. With Durant, the warriors were actually invincible after GS couldn't win it prior.

We all saw Bosh get marginalized after being in the MVP race the prior year to joining the Big 3 (called Big 3 for a reason, they had a legit big 3, including Wade who was considered around Lebron level).

Yet somehow, they struggled. Being able to function in a system is important. Having the right balance of shooting is important. We saw Lebron and Wade struggle to figure it out for a while and weren't getting 1st seed in the East, mainly because neither has a reliable shot. It's rare for someone to play that point style, have the point skills, have the jump shot and all around game.
Jokic is special in that regard.

He's also right when he states that this play style is overrated. Fans go gaga over stats, even if it doesn't translate directly to wins.
The point scorers get the biggest boost in stats for obvious reasons, while the Kobe's are overlooked over time because they were "inefficient" or didn't constantly pass. It's the perfect example of stats not telling the entire story.

There are great floor raisers, and great ceiling raisers. Look at how everyone freaked out about James Harden and look
at how empty those stats actually were. So OP is making a couple of valid points but with too much exaggeration.

The Sad Truth - There are players who care about stats more, and players who hate, and I mean hate losing. There's a difference between these players and it usually doesn't show up in stats but in achievements instead. Unfortunately, fans don't see it because they mainly process surface level thoughts - stats, what they choose to see, and what happens in the moment.

[ReddoverKobe]

26 total players have more titles then Lebron in the history of the NBA. 12 of those are from the 50's. He also made 10 total finals. This is an insane take.

[Evenacus]

LBJ didn’t play anything close to heliocentric ball in 2012 or 2013, it’s actually quite funny to see this retconning. Although when he did actually play “LeBron ball” with Wade off, the Heat were ludicrously effective with it.

The comparison was made with Denver in mind and the current difference between LA and them.
No one claimed he always played in a heliocentric system. He started playing like that when he moved away from Miami. Riley and Spoelstra run a proper organization. He couldn't play that kind of style since he wasn't the top dog there. Miami weren't bending over for him to do what he wants. That is why he left in the end when Wade and Bosch fell off.

[The Explorer]

The jimmy butler led heat have been to 2 of the last 4 finals while being swept in the finals by the west. Why is no one saying butler is the best player in the east for this accomplishment? Because the east is weak as hell and really is an afterthought.

Butler's 20, 22 & 23 play-offs runs are more impressive carry jobs than anything Kobe has ever done.

Kobe did his work in the West was it's absolute peak all-time. Also, look at the quality of the top 5 defensive teams Kobe faced off against night after night in the West. With all due respect to Butler, he is not in any way in Kobe's league. In terms of Lebron, you guys him credit for beating up on these woeful East teams that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the Western Conference. Lebron's over all head-to-head records against other championship squads Lebron has won 40 percent of his games compared to a player like Kob who wins at a 62 percent clip. You guys are delusional giving Lebron credit for beating up cripple teams from the East with Dwayne Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, etc.

If you count actual teams that went on to win a championship after Lebron faced them in the playoffs, Lebron's win percentage drops to just 35 percent. Most of those games were played in his prime with multiple all-stars on his rosters. Lebron is only good enough to carry his to 1 win every 3 games during championship window. It's not an exaggeration to say he is one of the worst playoff performers ever in the history of the NBA on championship rosters. That's a fact.

This is spot on. 4 titles in 21 years despite him picking his teammates, firing and hiring his coaches is proof.

[Optms]

Call me when he goes to 8 straight Finals or doesn't get swept without Murray. Nevermind impacting the game over 20 years. One guy is overrated here and it isn't the GOAT.

[nikster]

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

You've got to be kidding me, you're comparing Lebron's teams over his entire career to Jordan's teams before he had Scottie. There was no other 15 ppg scorer on that team that season, while Jordan averaged 37. Celtics had Bird averaging 28, McHale averaging 26 and Parish averaging 17, and all 3 averaged around 10 rebounds. Clearly a better team than Jordan's no debate. Since we're going to get ridiculous, why did Lebron miss the playoffs the first two years? Maybe because no one can do it by themselves. Maybe because context matters, maybe because your teammates matter.

Yeah I agree it is ridcilous, that's my point teammate and context matters... It's just as crazy as claiming Lebron at 39 losing to the Nuggets is some sort of mark on his career

[ShannonWright]

Lebron James haters are pathetic. If you only rely on their posts you would think that he is some bum with no titles and only scores on dunks.

Just say "I don't like Lebron James and will do everything to diminish him."

That's more acceptable than typing 1,000-word essays that no one will read and take seriously.

[Astaluego]

I don't like Lebron at all, but it is very unfair to evaluate his career based on whether he is swept or not at 39 years old... it is clearly and hardly debatable top 3 history... Jokic hasn't gotten there yet

[bledredwine]

Call me when he goes to 8 straight Finals or doesn't get swept without Murray. Nevermind impacting the game over 20 years. One guy is overrated here and it isn't the GOAT.

8 straight finals in a conference where their best competition was Rose and the Bulls and was otherwise trash means little, especially when it's exposed because your team gets slaughtered in the finals.

Go ahead and look up the squads he faced. It was a joke of a conference and when Lebron formed the Heat, he had more superstars on his own team than the entire eastern conference playoffs combined.

It's impressive, but not to be compared with Kobe's championships. Lebron's championships can be.

[Pharmcat]

The Lebron hate is out of control