Jokic's great, but Lebron's style of play is overrated in terms of championship/playoff impact.

[ballzboyee]

Lebron's style relies on him being a jack of all trades and having offensive/defensive versatility. The problem is that is James does a lot of things really well that just don't move the needle in terms of championship impact. It's the high floor-low ceiling type problem with certain superstars who because of they showcased in every situation, they take up roles in which they are not really needed and in all probability a specialist player would take up that position more effectively. Lebron for his whole career it has not been so much the quantity of his stats, but the quality of selective and almost arbitrary stat padding. This has always led to poor situational game management and breakdowns in team performance. Fighting your own teammates for meaningless defensive rebounds, getting gimme assists on 3-point swing swing play or kickouts, getting credit for tons of assists that primarily scorekeeper's discretion, and just in general using up valuable on-the-ball/off-the-ball action inefficiently and inadequately leads to these playoffs collapses, especially against other championship caliber teams with bona fide superstars.

In this league you are either a generalist or a specialist, and a player really can't be both. Lebron's Achilles been that he has always tried to be both to detriment of his team, and in the playoffs his rosters have lacked cohesive structure. With Lebron you see players check out mentally during games. The coaches have to cater to his every whim and you see players like Anthony Davis complaining about not having a cohesive structure on offense and not knowing what the team is doing. You also see very strange and unexplainable tendencies to move away from what works to allow Lebron to freelance. AD, for example, could be completely dominating a game, and because Lebron basically can become the offense at any point, the team offense stops functioning or breaks down. This is the reason why is has always needed another top 5 or top 10 player in the league to get him over the hump. The other player is actually operating the specialist impact role that we saw from guys like Kobe, Jordan, and Curry, etc.

Against Denver Lebron's team has lost now eleven games in a row. Just from a probability perspective, for playoff team like the Lakers with almost 50 wins and with two top 10 players to lose that many a row to another playoff team is almost impossible without real thematic breakdowns caused by inefficient play and lack of team execution. There is no team discipline on Lebron's squads. It's a lot of Lebron freelancing, and this just does not work against good teams that can stay within a system and execute consistently on a quarter by quarter basis. The primary cause of this is that Lebron's superstar impact from overall sense is just not there. He has not has been on the same par as guys like Kobe, Jordan, etc. and other primary on-ball specialists who can situationally take over games by attacking the other team through primarily occupying a main niche in a system and allowing other players to specialize in a role. "Lebron being the system" is a problem because coaches and other players have to occupy new niches and new roles are that uncomfortable for them, and also their roles are constantly have to change around him on a game-by-game basis. This is especially true in the playoffs when other teams can exploit these inefficiencies. Lebron's impact goes way down in those situations. Even when he is scoring, assisting, etc., the team suffers.

The bottom line is that people can blame Darvin Ham, give all the credit Jokic, blame Lebron's age, etc. but Lebron's style of play is just not built for playoff basketball. Lebron's a regular season guy. Yea, against a bad Eastern Conference his teams can get to the finals, but when he faces a really good team his style of play does not work. And to be honest, Lebron is lucky that he has four championships. If not for Ray Allen and the Bubble, he would have only two.

[Biff]

You gotta be trolling. You seriously spent this much time laying out something this ridiculous? Go out and touch some grass, man. James has played in more playoff games than anyone else in NBA history and his game isn't built for the playoffs? If that were true, he wouldn't have so many deep runs.

[KyRo23]

Lebron's a regular season guy.

.
.

[Gregoire]

LeBron is very very talented guy, but ultimately he have quitter and front-runner mentality, thats why he always tried to stack the deck with stars and lineup in his favor and jump teams like a woman of easy virtue on different d*cks...

Strike for sexist comment.

[UcanUwill]

I mean Lebron reached the finals half the time he played in the league. But he is old, he cant cut it anymore, I probably agree that his style of play did not age well for a superstar. Dude built himself as the man who plays with 4 other bystanders, and now he is not good enough to play winning ball under that style.

They are 8th seed, we know Jokic is not facing a great team yet. Why even Jokic sweaping a series is just a sidestory to Lebron? Lakers arent good and will be swept likely, nothing much more to it.

[AleksandarN]

That took effort got to hand it to you. You are at least committed to the part.

[ballzboyee]

You gotta be trolling. You seriously spent this much time laying out something this ridiculous? Go out and touch some grass, man. James has played in more playoff games than anyone else in NBA history and his game isn't built for the playoffs? If that were true, he wouldn't have so many deep runs.

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

[nikster]

You gotta be trolling. You seriously spent this much time laying out something this ridiculous? Go out and touch some grass, man. James has played in more playoff games than anyone else in NBA history and his game isn't built for the playoffs? If that were true, he wouldn't have so many deep runs.

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

[BruttoNostra]

Look, I cheer for Nuggets/Jokic and generally don't like Lebron, and a big part of it is his personality, but come on, Lebron is ATG and was amazing for so many years, that his, what, 20th (?)season playoff failure can't really wipe out his past achievements.

[ballzboyee]

You gotta be trolling. You seriously spent this much time laying out something this ridiculous? Go out and touch some grass, man. James has played in more playoff games than anyone else in NBA history and his game isn't built for the playoffs? If that were true, he wouldn't have so many deep runs.

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

Nuggets have SRS 5.23 have a net rating on the season of +3. They are not a historically great team according to the metrics. Last year they were 3.04 and won just over 50 games. On paper the Lakers last year and maybe this year should not be losing 11 games to this squad. For example, this Nuggets team would not beat the 2017 GSW. No way. That was an all-time historically great teams that finished I think 11.5 SRS and net rating of almost +12.

There are other examples. In 2013 the the Spurs get taken to 7 by the Mavericks and then dominated the more talented Heat team 4-1. It's wasn't even that close. Maybe the most lopsided finals of all-time. In 2018 the Rockets take the GSW to 7 games (and should have won the series), and Lebron's team gets swept. GSW did not sweep any other team that season in the playoffs except Lebron's team. How do you explain that? Was Lebron's team actually the fourth or fifth best team in the NBA that year? If so, why are we giving him any credit at all for making the finals?

Either his teams are really not that good in the first place, or his teams are underperforming in the playoffs relative to expectations and compared to other results. It's not even about winning the championship. His teams are not even competitive when they lose. There are always teams that fail to be competitive, but usually there is a team context to it. Lebron's rosters have turned over more than probably any other player in the history of the NBA to make them specifically competitive in the playoffs, and it has not really worked.

For example, is Gasol is a poor man's Anthony Davis. If you put Kobe with Anthony Davis, the Lakers are winning multiple championships. They certainly are not losing 11 straight to the Nuggets, etc. That's not happening. Lebron's skill set is designed to showcase Lebron and to build his brand, and if the team wins then fine, but if not then Lebron can say that he got a triple double and then passively aggressive throw shade at the coach, his teammates, or just trade the whole team. Kobe is actually the really unselfish player, not Lebron. Lebron wants to dominate the ball in every facet. Kobe knew that he was primarily just a scorer and he sticks to his job. Kobe stays in his lane and allowed other players to maximize whatever it is they bring to the team. Kobe could play within a system that expected him to have a defined role, and hist teammates could depend on Kobe to just do his job.

Lebron is the opposite. Lebron occupying multiple team niches at once, and the problem has always been his raw stats do not convert to situational winning through team building and cohesion. Lebron is not a team guy. In fact, just the opposite. For example, right now the Lakers could potentially blow things up for Lebron. Lebron's teams are always under this constant psychological cloud on and off the court. His teams are inherently unstable because of his style of play and this off court "need more help" narrative that gets played out every off season. It's exhausting for other players, the coaches, the front offices, etc.

[One_and_Done]

10 finals disagrees.

[ballzboyee]

11 finals disagrees.

A bunch of L's.

[One_and_Done]

10 finals disagrees.

A bunch of L's.

To better teams. Lebron's style clearly works in the play-offs, or he wouldn't have been all the way to the finals 10 times.

[nikster]

100% serious. Lebron overall carer stat's are nice, but his teams have underpeformed relative to expectations and been swept or 1-4'd far too often when he has multiple all-star and top 10 players on his teams. It's the reason he only has four championships after the league rolled out the red carpet every year to guarantee him a finals appearance playing in the woeful East. Lebron's brand of basketball doesn't work for winning championships unless you surround him with obscene amounts of talent year after year, and even then it's far from guaranteed. His teams should not be getting doinked 0-3 against SRS team that only 6+ like the Nuggets. The Nuggets are beatable. They didn't sweep any team they faced last year but the Lakers. If they sweep them this year, they probably won't sweep another team again this year. Let's not get it confused, this Denver team is not the 1986 Boston Celtics or the Jordan's Bulls.

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

Nuggets have SRS 5.23 have a net rating on the season of +3. They are not a historically great team according to the metrics. Last year they were 3.04 and won just over 50 games. On paper the Lakers last year and maybe this year should not be losing 11 games to this squad. For example, this Nuggets team would not beat the 2017 GSW. No way. That was an all-time historically great teams that finished I think 11.5 SRS and net rating of almost +12.

There are other examples. In 2013 the the Spurs get taken to 7 by the Mavericks and then dominated the more talented Heat team 4-1. It's wasn't even that close. Maybe the most lopsided finals of all-time. In 2018 the Rockets take the GSW to 7 games (and should have won the series), and Lebron's team gets swept. GSW did not sweep any other team that season in the playoffs except Lebron's team. How do you explain that? Was Lebron's team actually the fourth or fifth best team in the NBA that year? If so, why are we giving him any credit at all for making the finals?

Either his teams are really not that good in the first place, or his teams are underperforming in the playoffs relative to expectations and compared to other results. It's not even about winning the championship. His teams are not even competitive when they lose. There are always teams that fail to be competitive, but usually there is a team context to it. Lebron's rosters have turned over more than probably any other player in the history of the NBA to make them specifically competitive in the playoffs, and it has not really worked.

For example, is Gasol is a poor man's Anthony Davis. If you put Kobe with Anthony Davis, the Lakers are winning multiple championships. They certainly are not losing 11 straight to the Nuggets, etc. That's not happening. Lebron's skill set is designed to showcase Lebron and to build his brand, and if the team wins then fine, but if not then Lebron can say that he got a triple double and then passively aggressive throw shade at the coach, his teammates, or just trade the whole team. Kobe is actually the really unselfish player, not Lebron. Lebron wants to dominate the ball in every facet. Kobe knew that he was primarily just a scorer and he sticks to his job. Kobe stays in his lane and allowed other players to maximize whatever it is they bring to the team. Kobe could play within a system that expected him to have a defined role, and hist teammates could depend on Kobe to just do his job.

Lebron is the opposite. Lebron occupying multiple team niches at once, and the problem has always been his raw stats do not convert to situational winning through team building and cohesion. Lebron is not a team guy. In fact, just the opposite. For example, right now the Lakers could potentially blow things up for Lebron. Lebron's teams are always under this constant psychological cloud on and off the court. His teams are inherently unstable because of his style of play and this off court "need more help" narrative that gets played out every off season. It's exhausting for other players, the coaches, the front offices, etc.

Nuggets SRS last year was low because of a ton of injuries and Jamal working his way back, and even then they coasted after securing #1 seed. . Even this year Jamal missed a ton of games

Kobe with Pau Gasol were swept by Dallas in the 2nd round and swept by Spurs in the 1st round, and Kobe wasn't winning anything past his prime.

[Brandon_Roy7]

10 finals disagrees.

I didn't read ops post because I'm sure it's ridiculous. But this argument is the weakest one for sure. If he was in the west in his career, I would honestly say he's the goat. Pretty soon we will probably be saying Jason Tatum is the goat for reaching 10 finals straight with how weak the east is now.

[One_and_Done]

10 finals disagrees.

I didn't read ops post because I'm sure it's ridiculous. But this argument is the weakest one for sure. If he was in the west in his career, I would honestly say he's the goat. Pretty soon we will probably be saying Jason Tatum is the goat for reaching 10 finals straight with how weak the east is now.

The Celtics look like they'd have been struggling to beat the healthy Heat this yr. 10 finals seems a tad optimistic. The Celtics are a finals chance because of how good the team is, they're not getting carried by Tatum Lebron-style.

[ballzboyee]

I don't see an argument for any Lebron team under performing other than the 2011 Mavs.

Nuggets might not have swept anyone else last year, but they had no real difficulties with any other opponent either. The 87 Celtics had an SRS of 6, were taken to 7 games by the Bucks and Pistons and lost to the Lakers....still swept Jordan. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs

Nuggets have SRS 5.23 have a net rating on the season of +3. They are not a historically great team according to the metrics. Last year they were 3.04 and won just over 50 games. On paper the Lakers last year and maybe this year should not be losing 11 games to this squad. For example, this Nuggets team would not beat the 2017 GSW. No way. That was an all-time historically great teams that finished I think 11.5 SRS and net rating of almost +12.

There are other examples. In 2013 the the Spurs get taken to 7 by the Mavericks and then dominated the more talented Heat team 4-1. It's wasn't even that close. Maybe the most lopsided finals of all-time. In 2018 the Rockets take the GSW to 7 games (and should have won the series), and Lebron's team gets swept. GSW did not sweep any other team that season in the playoffs except Lebron's team. How do you explain that? Was Lebron's team actually the fourth or fifth best team in the NBA that year? If so, why are we giving him any credit at all for making the finals?

Either his teams are really not that good in the first place, or his teams are underperforming in the playoffs relative to expectations and compared to other results. It's not even about winning the championship. His teams are not even competitive when they lose. There are always teams that fail to be competitive, but usually there is a team context to it. Lebron's rosters have turned over more than probably any other player in the history of the NBA to make them specifically competitive in the playoffs, and it has not really worked.

For example, is Gasol is a poor man's Anthony Davis. If you put Kobe with Anthony Davis, the Lakers are winning multiple championships. They certainly are not losing 11 straight to the Nuggets, etc. That's not happening. Lebron's skill set is designed to showcase Lebron and to build his brand, and if the team wins then fine, but if not then Lebron can say that he got a triple double and then passively aggressive throw shade at the coach, his teammates, or just trade the whole team. Kobe is actually the really unselfish player, not Lebron. Lebron wants to dominate the ball in every facet. Kobe knew that he was primarily just a scorer and he sticks to his job. Kobe stays in his lane and allowed other players to maximize whatever it is they bring to the team. Kobe could play within a system that expected him to have a defined role, and hist teammates could depend on Kobe to just do his job.

Lebron is the opposite. Lebron occupying multiple team niches at once, and the problem has always been his raw stats do not convert to situational winning through team building and cohesion. Lebron is not a team guy. In fact, just the opposite. For example, right now the Lakers could potentially blow things up for Lebron. Lebron's teams are always under this constant psychological cloud on and off the court. His teams are inherently unstable because of his style of play and this off court "need more help" narrative that gets played out every off season. It's exhausting for other players, the coaches, the front offices, etc.

Nuggets SRS last year was low because of a ton of injuries and Jamal working his way back, and even then they coasted after securing #1 seed. . Even this year Jamal missed a ton of games

Kobe with Pau Gasol were swept by Dallas in the 2nd round and swept by Spurs in the 1st round, and Kobe wasn't winning anything past his prime.

2011 was weird. That team went on a 17-1 run after all-star break and looked to be getting Kobe's sixth ring. However, Bynum got hurt and Blake got chicken pox going into playoffs. Context is important. Also, Bryant had the whole gay slur controversy and Phil Jackson had checked out and retired after that season. Bryant had to apologize, and the whole situation undermined the Lakers chemistry. That team was good enough to win without any controversy or injuries, but neither happened. I don't know why I am arguing though because Kobe has five rings and nobody doubts his championship impact. The Lakers win almost every time Kobe gets his team to the big game. Not so, Lebron.

[nikster]

10 finals disagrees.

I didn't read ops post because I'm sure it's ridiculous. But this argument is the weakest one for sure. If he was in the west in his career, I would honestly say he's the goat. Pretty soon we will probably be saying Jason Tatum is the goat for reaching 10 finals straight with how weak the east is now.

Right now Tatum is at zero consecutive finals....a little early to be talking about what happens if he hits 10 straight.

East was rrlatively weak but even with superteams its never a cakewalk to be that consistent. We've seen how many super teams fail to get any success at all. There are always obstacles to being succesful that long. Bosh missed most of 2012, Wade was hobbled by the end of their run, Love went down early in 2015, and 2018 they didn't have Irving.

[art_tatum]

I agree with what you're trying to say.
It's a style I call asymmetric offense that Lebron has been lacking for awhile. He had it more in his youth especially the first stint in Cleveland
But since his late cavs days and even throughout most of his career he got his stats through the flow of the game picking his spots.

He usually doesn't go on game breaking runs that put teams away. Though ofc he are a bunch of times and examples where he has, but in general that's not his style.

the curry flurries an example of asymmetrical offense not within the flow. Lebron usually gets his 26 points by doing like 8 points a quarter.

However joker also is the same in that regard, getting his points in the flow. Except he just does it better than Lebron.

[nikster]

Nuggets have SRS 5.23 have a net rating on the season of +3. They are not a historically great team according to the metrics. Last year they were 3.04 and won just over 50 games. On paper the Lakers last year and maybe this year should not be losing 11 games to this squad. For example, this Nuggets team would not beat the 2017 GSW. No way. That was an all-time historically great teams that finished I think 11.5 SRS and net rating of almost +12.

There are other examples. In 2013 the the Spurs get taken to 7 by the Mavericks and then dominated the more talented Heat team 4-1. It's wasn't even that close. Maybe the most lopsided finals of all-time. In 2018 the Rockets take the GSW to 7 games (and should have won the series), and Lebron's team gets swept. GSW did not sweep any other team that season in the playoffs except Lebron's team. How do you explain that? Was Lebron's team actually the fourth or fifth best team in the NBA that year? If so, why are we giving him any credit at all for making the finals?

Either his teams are really not that good in the first place, or his teams are underperforming in the playoffs relative to expectations and compared to other results. It's not even about winning the championship. His teams are not even competitive when they lose. There are always teams that fail to be competitive, but usually there is a team context to it. Lebron's rosters have turned over more than probably any other player in the history of the NBA to make them specifically competitive in the playoffs, and it has not really worked.

For example, is Gasol is a poor man's Anthony Davis. If you put Kobe with Anthony Davis, the Lakers are winning multiple championships. They certainly are not losing 11 straight to the Nuggets, etc. That's not happening. Lebron's skill set is designed to showcase Lebron and to build his brand, and if the team wins then fine, but if not then Lebron can say that he got a triple double and then passively aggressive throw shade at the coach, his teammates, or just trade the whole team. Kobe is actually the really unselfish player, not Lebron. Lebron wants to dominate the ball in every facet. Kobe knew that he was primarily just a scorer and he sticks to his job. Kobe stays in his lane and allowed other players to maximize whatever it is they bring to the team. Kobe could play within a system that expected him to have a defined role, and hist teammates could depend on Kobe to just do his job.

Lebron is the opposite. Lebron occupying multiple team niches at once, and the problem has always been his raw stats do not convert to situational winning through team building and cohesion. Lebron is not a team guy. In fact, just the opposite. For example, right now the Lakers could potentially blow things up for Lebron. Lebron's teams are always under this constant psychological cloud on and off the court. His teams are inherently unstable because of his style of play and this off court "need more help" narrative that gets played out every off season. It's exhausting for other players, the coaches, the front offices, etc.

Nuggets SRS last year was low because of a ton of injuries and Jamal working his way back, and even then they coasted after securing #1 seed. . Even this year Jamal missed a ton of games

Kobe with Pau Gasol were swept by Dallas in the 2nd round and swept by Spurs in the 1st round, and Kobe wasn't winning anything past his prime.

2011 was weird. That team went on a 17-1 run after all-star break and looked to be getting Kobe's sixth ring. However, Bynum got hurt and Blake missed rest of season with illness. Context is important. Also, Bryant had the whole gay slur controversy and Phil Jackson had checked out and retired after that season. Bryant had to apologize, and the whole situation undermined the Lakers chemistry. That team was good enough to win without any controversy or injuries, but neither happened. I don't know why I am arguing though because Kobe has five rings and nobody doubts his championship impact. The Lakers win almost every time Kobe gets his team to the big game. Not so, Lebron.

Lmao so these are your excuses for Kobe in 2011
1) their back up PG was sick (but still played entire Dallas series and only missed first game of first round)
2) Bynum was injured (he played 54 of their last 57 regular season games and played all playoffs)
3) Kobe made a gay slur
4) Coach was checked out

You've got to be trolling