If Denver wants to repeat, Jokic has to step up...

[sikma42]

Also if Denver feels like they are going to have to contend with Minny yearly, they may want to look for an Edwards Stopper this summer. KCP isn't that guy IMO.

Minny has Gobert (and KAT) to deal with Jokic but Denver doesn't really have a guy to guard Edwards.

In truth, too, one of the biggest problems for Denver in this matchup is that Gordon can't shoot. So Gobert gets to protect the rim off ball on Jokic drives and he doesn't have to worry about guarding the perimeter.

Most of the issues for Denver in this matchup are non-Jokic ones.

7 turnovers isn’t an issue? He wasn’t an effective hub.

Not being able to run certain pick and roll coverages on AE? Not being an effective deterrent at the rim?

Each and every big on Minnesota thrived out there..guess that has nothing to with Jokic.

Board has an interesting way as building in Jokics shortcoming defensively as par for the course but will call out someone like Gordon for his skillset.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[EmpireFalls]

Remember guys. None of it is Jokic’s fault.

[HotRocks34]

Also if Denver feels like they are going to have to contend with Minny yearly, they may want to look for an Edwards Stopper this summer. KCP isn't that guy IMO.

Minny has Gobert (and KAT) to deal with Jokic but Denver doesn't really have a guy to guard Edwards.

In truth, too, one of the biggest problems for Denver in this matchup is that Gordon can't shoot. So Gobert gets to protect the rim off ball on Jokic drives and he doesn't have to worry about guarding the perimeter.

Most of the issues for Denver in this matchup are non-Jokic ones.

7 turnovers aren’t an issue?

Not being able to run certain pick and roll coverages on AE? Not being an effective deterrent at the rim?

Each and every big on Minnesota thrived out there..guess that has nothing to with Jokic.

Board has an interesting way as building in Jokics shortcoming defensively as par for the course but will call out someone like Gordon for his skillset.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

They can't run PNR -- Denver's staple with Jokic and Murray -- because Murray is a liability right now.

Turnovers matter but only underscores the key issue -- Jokic is trying to force things, which is not how he plays, because he knows the rest of the gang, and particularly Murray, aren't up to the task currently.

The DNVR guys covered this in their post-game livestream the other day.

[dhsilv2]

Yes, I watched the game. Gobert wasn't the best player on the wolves. That was Edward's. Did you watch it? Do you understand basketball, at all?

Don't put words in my mouth, unless you don't understand how to talk basketball and really can only post advanced stats or nitpick wording when youre wrong. You said Denver didn't have a counter for Gobert. I say that Jokic is supposed to be that counter, as a guy who is supposed to be playing the best basketball we've ever seen. He's supposed to be able to dominate, regardless of who is in front of him. I'm not saying a player counters another player. I'm saying a guy who is supposed to be playing at a GOAT peak should be able to step up and overcome whatever defense is thrown at him. I've seen people harping on Lebron for losing in 2011, and it's a blemish on him for sure. But I'd seen him dominate and be the undisputed best player in series prior to that when he didnt have the best team. Because that's what all time players do. Jokic needs to step up, and if you watched the game I'm not sure how or why youd disagree with that? Or if your saying Goberts "masterclass" was too much to overcome, maybe it's time to question if the numbers suggesting he's playing the best basketball we've ever seen are misleading, if he can be taken out of his game by Gobert and team defensive concept. This is what I've been waiting for, some legit competition for him. He absolutely needs to step up, Minny isn't playing around.

You're just talking nonsense. What does "jokic supposed to be the counter" even mean?

Yes, Gobert was the best player in that game. He absolutely dominated the game. The wolves won because the Nuggets were held under 100 points, largely due to Gobert completely shutting down the paint for the Nuggets as a whole. Not any one player...but the whole team. You counter that with shooting from outside, not by trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

This doesn't negate that Edwards also had a great game, but he's going to be called on to do that because his skills and abilities would be hard to counter with how the Nuggets defense plays. So the nuggets are likely to allow him to continue having these big games...they have to find a way to score more points. That remains their issue, not that Edwards got 40. Denver can give up 106 points a game to the wolves and win the series just fine. They aren't win the series scoring 99.

Jokic is supposed to be the counter means he's supposed to be playing this GOAT basketball. A defender or team concept shouldn't be able to take him out of his game so much as it did in game 1. He's supposed to be the one who elevates his teams offense, raises teammates confidence, leads with his energy. They took away the normal passes he likes to make and he was frazzled. He didn't want to take some shots. He needs to lead, bring energy, and figure out how to be the counter to what Minny is doing. In my opinion, based on game 1 and minnesotas strategy, that would mean looking to score more and bringing some energy his team and the crowd can get behind. He didn't make that recognition in game 1, and it resulted in crushing turnovers that cost them the game.

None of this means anything. This is all feelings and emotions.

Jokic needs to take better care of the ball. His team needs to figure out how to better incorporate Aaron Gordon against the Wolve's defense. They also need to figure out how to deal with Murray's poor play if it continues. But no "GOAT" player is supposed to abandon playing winning ball which it sounds like you want. Jokic isn't a GOAT level offensive player on his scoring alone. But no player considered to be in the GOAT tier doesn't have far worse playoff games than this. And they all needed their teammates and coaches to work together to create counters to allowed them to play their best ball. And every GOAT level player has been impacted negatively by great defense.


These adjustments and changes don't always happen intragame like you're implying you expected.

[dhsilv2]

Remember guys. None of it is Jokic’s fault.

Nah, the turnovers were certainly a combination of defense and him forcing things.

[sikma42]

Also if Denver feels like they are going to have to contend with Minny yearly, they may want to look for an Edwards Stopper this summer. KCP isn't that guy IMO.

Minny has Gobert (and KAT) to deal with Jokic but Denver doesn't really have a guy to guard Edwards.

In truth, too, one of the biggest problems for Denver in this matchup is that Gordon can't shoot. So Gobert gets to protect the rim off ball on Jokic drives and he doesn't have to worry about guarding the perimeter.

Most of the issues for Denver in this matchup are non-Jokic ones.

7 turnovers aren’t an issue?

Not being able to run certain pick and roll coverages on AE? Not being an effective deterrent at the rim?

Each and every big on Minnesota thrived out there..guess that has nothing to with Jokic.

Board has an interesting way as building in Jokics shortcoming defensively as par for the course but will call out someone like Gordon for his skillset.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

They can't run PNR -- Denver's staple with Jokic and Murray -- because Murray is a liability right now.

Turnovers matter but only underscores the key issue -- Jokic is trying to force things, which is not how he plays, because he knows the rest of the gang, and particularly Murray, aren't up to the task currently.

The DNVR guys covered this in their post-game livestream the other day.

Again, this happens in the playoffs. Murray scored 17 points in the second half and Jokic's turnovers were based on his own bad reads and poor decisions. When you supposed to be playing at a level offensively better than every other human ever, then you can be effective in multiple ways.

You also didn't address the defense. Denver is really limited in their coverage against a guy like AE.

[HotRocks34]

Remember guys. None of it is Jokic’s fault.

When Cleveland lost the 2017 Finals 4-1 it wasn't LeBron's fault. He averaged 33/12/10.

The Cavs lost because the Warriors were better than LeBron.

That's what is shaping up in the Minny-Denver series.

A great team almost always beats a great player.

It's a tough time for Playoffs Murray to be hurting, but here we are.

Not having All Star caliber teammates can catch up to you if the right opponent comes along.

Props to the Wolves though. They are a great team.

[dhsilv2]

7 turnovers aren’t an issue?

Not being able to run certain pick and roll coverages on AE? Not being an effective deterrent at the rim?

Each and every big on Minnesota thrived out there..guess that has nothing to with Jokic.

Board has an interesting way as building in Jokics shortcoming defensively as par for the course but will call out someone like Gordon for his skillset.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

They can't run PNR -- Denver's staple with Jokic and Murray -- because Murray is a liability right now.

Turnovers matter but only underscores the key issue -- Jokic is trying to force things, which is not how he plays, because he knows the rest of the gang, and particularly Murray, aren't up to the task currently.

The DNVR guys covered this in their post-game livestream the other day.

Again, this happens in the playoffs. Murray scored 17 points in the second half and Jokic's turnovers were based on his own bad reads and poor decisions. When you supposed to be playing at a level offensively better than every other human ever, then you can be effective in multiple ways.

You also didn't address the defense. Denver is really limited in their coverage against a guy like AE.

Both teams improved offensively in the second half, be interesting to see how much of that is variance, defense, and/or team figuring eachother out.

But it's hard to focus too much on a defense that gave up 106 points.

And if Jokic does what he did in game 1 for a full series, it's not a GOAT level series. Even if we were to argue the Wolves might be a GOAT level defensive team in terms of fit to counter the Nuggets. But if this is the worst playoff game we get out of Jokic. It would be WAY better than those who are compared to him.

1991 Jordan (maybe the best form for MJ in a title year). Bulls won (they nearly went undefeated that year), but they didn't win because of MJ's offense in this one. 22 points on 15 shots with 6 turnovers.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199105190CHI.html

2013 Lebron - considered perhaps his best year and likely best year he won a title in. 7-21 5 assists and now just 2 turnovers.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306110SAS.html

2000 Shaq - MOST DOMINATE EVER! 17 shots and 17 points in a loss.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006020POR.html

We can say Jokic has to play better because we know he can and that's the standard we've set. But if game 1 is as bad as Jokic plays in the playoffs...it'll be an all time great playoff run in terms of individual play.

[hardenASG13]

You're just talking nonsense. What does "jokic supposed to be the counter" even mean?

Yes, Gobert was the best player in that game. He absolutely dominated the game. The wolves won because the Nuggets were held under 100 points, largely due to Gobert completely shutting down the paint for the Nuggets as a whole. Not any one player...but the whole team. You counter that with shooting from outside, not by trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

This doesn't negate that Edwards also had a great game, but he's going to be called on to do that because his skills and abilities would be hard to counter with how the Nuggets defense plays. So the nuggets are likely to allow him to continue having these big games...they have to find a way to score more points. That remains their issue, not that Edwards got 40. Denver can give up 106 points a game to the wolves and win the series just fine. They aren't win the series scoring 99.

Jokic is supposed to be the counter means he's supposed to be playing this GOAT basketball. A defender or team concept shouldn't be able to take him out of his game so much as it did in game 1. He's supposed to be the one who elevates his teams offense, raises teammates confidence, leads with his energy. They took away the normal passes he likes to make and he was frazzled. He didn't want to take some shots. He needs to lead, bring energy, and figure out how to be the counter to what Minny is doing. In my opinion, based on game 1 and minnesotas strategy, that would mean looking to score more and bringing some energy his team and the crowd can get behind. He didn't make that recognition in game 1, and it resulted in crushing turnovers that cost them the game.

None of this means anything. This is all feelings and emotions.

Jokic needs to take better care of the ball. His team needs to figure out how to better incorporate Aaron Gordon against the Wolve's defense. They also need to figure out how to deal with Murray's poor play if it continues. But no "GOAT" player is supposed to abandon playing winning ball which it sounds like you want. Jokic isn't a GOAT level offensive player on his scoring alone. But no player considered to be in the GOAT tier doesn't have far worse playoff games than this. And they all needed their teammates and coaches to work together to create counters to allowed them to play their best ball. And every GOAT level player has been impacted negatively by great defense.


These adjustments and changes don't always happen intragame like you're implying you expected.

And yet this thread is saying he needs to step up, which he does. Which for some reason you are arguing against, almost like you didn't see game 1.
I'm not advocating for abandoning winning basketball. But if a team is going to take away his passing (which was the case here, it wasn't as simple as him taking better care of the ball. It's just the passes he likes to make weren't really there, but he kept trying to force them). If that's the case the rest of the series, him looking to be a scorer may be the necessary adjustment to play that winning basketball. We've seen guys on the all time greatest list respond by adjusting their playstyle based on what the defense is doing or what their team needs out of them. Now it's time for Jokic to do it, and I'm not sure why you're arguing otherwise.

Also, the fact that he needs to bring more energy to lift his teammates and get the crowd going aren't thoughts and feelings. They are reality. As was Minnesota taking him out of his comfort zone and him becoming frazzled. It happened in game 1. You cant dismiss everything you don't want to accept as thoughts and feelings. But you're on here saying that Gobert was the wolves best player in game 1, so I'm not sure if you even understand the reality of those facts.

[HotRocks34]

7 turnovers aren’t an issue?

Not being able to run certain pick and roll coverages on AE? Not being an effective deterrent at the rim?

Each and every big on Minnesota thrived out there..guess that has nothing to with Jokic.

Board has an interesting way as building in Jokics shortcoming defensively as par for the course but will call out someone like Gordon for his skillset.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

They can't run PNR -- Denver's staple with Jokic and Murray -- because Murray is a liability right now.

Turnovers matter but only underscores the key issue -- Jokic is trying to force things, which is not how he plays, because he knows the rest of the gang, and particularly Murray, aren't up to the task currently.

The DNVR guys covered this in their post-game livestream the other day.

Again, this happens in the playoffs. Murray scored 17 points in the second half and Jokic's turnovers were based on his own bad reads and poor decisions. When you supposed to be playing at a level offensively better than every other human ever, then you can be effective in multiple ways.

You also didn't address the defense. Denver is really limited in their coverage against a guy like AE.

I addressed the defense on Edwards in another post.

Murray was invisible in the first half and that set the tone. The Wolves knew they could absorb whatever he had to give and they did that. The focus remained holding down Jokic, which is the correct strategy.

Murray had the 4th-best Game Score for Denver in the contest and the worst DRTG on the team in Game 1. He was awful, and he was useless down the stretch when usually he would help out in the 2-man game.

Murray is not an All Star because he is often a one quarter or one half guy. You can't count on him for a whole game. Same thing in Game 1.

Murray has to be able to thrive given the minimal defensive attention he's getting.

In Game 1, that didn't happen.

And if it keeps not happening it will be a short series.

Minny will continue to work to take away Jokic.

Can the Others shine?

Seems doubtful right now.

[HotRocks34]

Just so we're all clear here, Jokic is leading the playoffs in PER, BPM and APG (as a center).

28/14/9 averages right now.

Game 1 vs MIN = 32/8/9

He's 2nd to Anthony Davis in RPG and 7th in PPG.

He's been doing his part, as we expect of an MVP.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is supposed to be the counter means he's supposed to be playing this GOAT basketball. A defender or team concept shouldn't be able to take him out of his game so much as it did in game 1. He's supposed to be the one who elevates his teams offense, raises teammates confidence, leads with his energy. They took away the normal passes he likes to make and he was frazzled. He didn't want to take some shots. He needs to lead, bring energy, and figure out how to be the counter to what Minny is doing. In my opinion, based on game 1 and minnesotas strategy, that would mean looking to score more and bringing some energy his team and the crowd can get behind. He didn't make that recognition in game 1, and it resulted in crushing turnovers that cost them the game.

None of this means anything. This is all feelings and emotions.

Jokic needs to take better care of the ball. His team needs to figure out how to better incorporate Aaron Gordon against the Wolve's defense. They also need to figure out how to deal with Murray's poor play if it continues. But no "GOAT" player is supposed to abandon playing winning ball which it sounds like you want. Jokic isn't a GOAT level offensive player on his scoring alone. But no player considered to be in the GOAT tier doesn't have far worse playoff games than this. And they all needed their teammates and coaches to work together to create counters to allowed them to play their best ball. And every GOAT level player has been impacted negatively by great defense.


These adjustments and changes don't always happen intragame like you're implying you expected.

And yet this thread is saying he needs to step up, which he does. Which for some reason you are arguing against, almost like you didn't see game 1.
I'm not advocating for abandoning winning basketball. But if a team is going to take away his passing (which was the case here, it wasn't as simple as him taking better care of the ball. It's just the passes he likes to make weren't really there, but he kept trying to force them). If that's the case the rest of the series, him looking to be a scorer may be the necessary adjustment to play that winning basketball. We've seen guys on the all time greatest list respond by adjusting their playstyle based on what the defense is doing or what their team needs out of them. Now it's time for Jokic to do it, and I'm not sure why you're arguing otherwise.

Also, the fact that he needs to bring more energy to lift his teammates and get the crowd going aren't thoughts and feelings. They are reality. As was Minnesota taking him out of his comfort zone and him becoming frazzled. It happened in game 1. You cant dismiss everything you don't want to accept as thoughts and feelings. But you're on here saying that Gobert was the wolves best player in game 1, so I'm not sure if you even understand the reality of those facts.

The nuggets are going to have to change up their player movement against the half court defense from the nuggets. A player can't just "step up" and resolve that. Whatever "step up" even means. Jokic can't just "play better" and will a win out like some ESPN level take would have people believe. It's about the team making adjustments and yes Jokic playing a bit better would greatly help. But those adjustments are going to be the more impactful thing given this was far from a bad game.

[HotRocks34]

To understand how bad Murray was in Game 1, he was the only Denver starter with a negative BPM. And he had the second worst BPM on the team behind only Watson, who was in just 6 minutes.

Look, he's hurt. No doubt.

But if your #2 guy is down at that level, you're probably toast.

You can't beat serious teams trying hard for one quarter or one half.

[greekman]

jokic could put up 50 pts they still won't win without murray hitting a few game winners. hopefully murray gets his due this year when he does carry the team to the finish line.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Its literally one game.

If Anthony Edwards keeps putting up 40 points, then yes the Nuggets will be in serious trouble.

Nah that's not really the issue. The issue was they didn't have a counter to Gobert. Gobert just put on a master class in that game and the nuggets had no counter to him.

Give me a break. Jokic slaughtered Gobert last year and he will do it again.

[HotRocks34]

This thread reminds me of Kenny Smith during the 2022 Warriors vs Nuggets series.

After Game 3, I think it was, the Nuggets went down 0-3.

Jokic had 37/18/5 on 14/22 with 5 TO that game. He had a monster Game Score. Gordon was next in points with 18.

Kenny laughably said Jokic didn't do enough. And then after the break he tried to correct himself because he realized how ridiculous that sounded.

Great Team > Great Player

[life_saver]

The Wolves are selling out to stop Jokic, the only Nugget they fear.

What that means is that if the Denver Others don't step up, the party is over.

it's actually fascinating at how Wolves are defending the Jokic-Murray 2 man game. KAT is just totally focused on Jokic and rarely even paying attention to Murray in those PnR plays.They just don't want ball in Jokic hands and making decisions during those Jokic-Murray plays

[Dubnation]

Dude has been underwhelmingly passive out of gate in every damn game so far in this playoff... you are the MVP, you need to be aggressive to set the tone... Denver has been trailing at the beginning of every game

Technically Denver has been tied at the beginning of every game.

[MarcusBrody]

He wasn't too bad. "Has to play better" kinda ignores that typicality the nuggets can isolate a smaller defender on him and he can just shoot over the top or he can just go to the floater. Doesn't really work when your switching and you have the smaller big in KAT's 7 foot long ass putting his arms up.

He was big. I don't think the turnovers hurt as much. 3 2/3 were floaters which the wolves drop defenders managed to disrupt. It's either that or a missed floater?

It's the fact they got nothing off the bench. Wolves had Naz Reid come on and the nuggets really didn't adjust to his speed and he managed to get some easy points in a tough grinding game

Which is weird since the. Nuggets bench had a good +/- and wolves had a terrible one.

I was super impressed with the Wolves (and especially Gobert's) ability to disrupt that lob after coming up as the help defender. That's a Nuggets bread and butter play and the Wolves did a great job on it. I'm eager to see what the Nuggets do to counter and whether they can get Gordon moving at different angles to make it less predictable/harder to get defender/momentum wise.

[HotRocks34]

The Wolves are selling out to stop Jokic, the only Nugget they fear.

What that means is that if the Denver Others don't step up, the party is over.

it's actually fascinating at how Wolves are defending the Jokic-Murray 2 man game. KAT is just totally focused on Jokic and rarely even paying attention to Murray in those PnR plays.They just don't want ball in Jokic hands and making decisions during those Jokic-Murray plays

Murray is struggling, so it makes sense to play it that way.

I'm not sure if Murray had a single meaningful play in like the last 4 minutes of the game. I have to check.

That's usually when their two man game is at its peak.

Injuries happen. Denver does need to work on its depth in the off-season, though IMO.