Did Duncan Have Worst Cast Ever For 3+ Championship Team?

Basileus777 · Post #42 » by **Basileus777** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:01 pm

_BBIB_ wrote:
Basileus777 wrote:2003 was the exception. In every other title run, Duncan had a supporting cast that was just as good as the teams he was playing against in the playoffs. Measure his supporting talent against the competition, not teams from a different era that he didn't have to play.

I don't know how you can possibly say that

2007 Suns- Amare/Nash/Marion/Barbosa/Bell etc etc
2007 Jazz- Deron Williams/Carlos Boozer/Mehmet Okur/ Derek Fisher/ AK 47

2005 Detroit Pistons (who won the title breaking up Lakers dynasty previous year)
2005 Suns- Amare/Nash/Marion/Joe Johnson/Quentin Richardson/Barbosa

1999 Lakers- Shaq/Kobe/Glen Rice/Eddie Jones/Rick Fox

Even the 1999 Knicks- Latrell Sprewell/ALlan Houston/Larry Johnson/Marcus Camby/Patrick Ewing

Almost all those teams had more talent and in most cases better records as well

Those are just a bunch of names. The Suns and Jazz didn't play defense or have a team built to win in the playoffs. The Pistons were good, but not amazing. There's a reason that team choked in the conference finals for much of the decade.

The Spurs beat some good teams, but no one that outclassed them in talent. The Spurs had a roster built to win championships unlike a lot of those pretenders.

_BBIB_ · Post #43 » by **_BBIB_** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:03 pm

Chronz wrote:Dude are you just reading roster sheets or did you watch or atleast analyze those cases. LJ was done Ewing wasnt even available. Glen Rice and Eddie Jones were traded for eachother IIRC, Suns lost JJ. Yes they beat some quality teams but after 03 he had some quality teammates. 03 was the one year and you look at the team and you dont really think championship material but that was also the year injuries decimated the playoffs.

How can you say the Spurs were better than the 2005 Pistons on paper? Or even the Suns without JJ?

Manu and Parker back in 2005 over Marion and Amare, are you kidding me?

Sedale Threatt · Post #44 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:09 pm

_BBIB_ wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:Again, how do 05 All-Star Manu Ginibili, 07 All-Star Tony Parker, and 05/07 All-Defense first teamer Bruce Bowen not qualify as elite?

In comparison to other teams that have won 3+ titles though.

Those teams had top 5-10 in the entire NBA 2nd options. Even for the Bulls dynasty where many say there was the biggest differential between 1st and 2nd option, Pippen was still a top 10-15 player in the league statistically over that span.

What did Duncan have? Maybe top 30 over the course of 1999 to 2007.

Well, again, technically, the Spurs did have a worse supporting cast than Russell's Celtics, the Showtime Lakers and Jordan's Bulls -- the three greatest dynasties in NBA history. Anybody is going to pale in comparison to those teams.

But you didn't really answer my question.

You made a previous comment about Duncan not playing with elite teammates in three of his four championship seasons. So I'll ask again, how do two All-Star caliber guards and an all-league defender not qualify as elite?

Basileus777 · Post #45 » by **Basileus777** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:09 pm

_BBIB_ wrote:
Chronz wrote:Dude are you just reading roster sheets or did you watch or atleast analyze those cases. LJ was done Ewing wasnt even available. Glen Rice and Eddie Jones were traded for eachother IIRC, Suns lost JJ. Yes they beat some quality teams but after 03 he had some quality teammates. 03 was the one year and you look at the team and you dont really think championship material but that was also the year injuries decimated the playoffs.

How can you say the Spurs were better than the 2005 Pistons on paper? Or even the Suns without JJ?

Manu and Parker back in 2005 over Marion and Amare, are you kidding me?

I'd take Manu, Parker, Bowen, and some nice role-players with Greg Popavich over the Suns supporting cast any day. The Pistons didn't have a true star, so comparing "supporting casts" with them is misleading. With Duncan, the Spurs were more talented than the Pistons.

_BBIB_ · Post #46 » by **_BBIB_** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:11 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:You made a previous comment about Duncan not playing with elite teammates in three of his four championship seasons. So I'll ask again, how do two All-Star caliber guards and an all-league defender not qualify as elite?

You're right I guess you have to look at it collectively. I was looking at it too much individually. Im looking at it from the standpoint that neither one of those guys made an all-star game during that run, but if both were fringe all-stars and both stepped their games up for the playoffs, I guess that could be misleading.

Makes sense too seeing how obviously you can't win a championship without a supporting cast.

If you could then obviously Jordan would have won sooner than 1991.

Sedale Threatt · Post #47 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:21 pm

But they DID make All-Star Games during that run!!! Manu in 05, after which he had an epic playoffs, and Parker in 07, after which he was Finals MVP. He's been named to two other games besides that.

And then you backtrack with the whole supporting cast thing. Well of course you can't win a championship without help. That's what some of us have been saying for four pages now by pointing out that Duncan had PLENTY.

You've basically trying to frame your whole argument as if Duncan carried a bunch of castoffs and D-Leaguers to four championships. When in fact he's been blessed with outstanding teammates, and a first-class organization, from the moment he set foot in the NBA.

I don't hold that against him. Indeed, I give him full credit for taking advantage of the opportunity he was given, and being one of the best players in league history. But you've taken a really poor angle here.

tosi · Post #48 » by **tosi** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:27 pm

I always thought Duncan really had the definition of a team.. Not everyone is a superstar but everyone knows their role completely.. Egos are all checked at the door and they play to win as a team, not for solo accolades.

sp6r=underrated · Post #49 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:54 am

Its important to understand, the Spurs success was built around defense which generates significantly less individual awards than offense. Also if you look at advanced stats, with the exception of the 03 team, Duncan had an excellent supporting cast.

triplet1984 · Post #50 » by **triplet1984** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:08 am

The 2003 supporting cast was particularly weak I think. Parker and Ginobli were nothing back then.

That was really Timmy's shining dominating year. He played incredible in the Finals. They also beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers on their way there.

JordansBulls · Post #51 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:15 am

_BBIB_ wrote:Based on career achievements

Tony Parker
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eto01.html
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
3x All Star (2006, 2007, 2009)
HOF Career Prob (92nd)

David Robinson (since Duncan joined team)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nda01.html
3x All-Star (1998 NBA 2000 NBA 2001 NBA)
3x All NBA 1997-98 NBA All-NBA (2nd) 1999-00 NBA All-NBA (3rd) 2000-01 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Manu
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bma01.html
1x All-Star 2005 NBA
1x All-NBA (3rd) 2007-08 NBA
2007-08 NBA 6th Man of the Year
HOF Probability Career 0.061 (170)

Bruce Bowen
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nbr01.html
Honors
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

HOF Probability
Career 0.000 (612)

Duncan won 4 championships without a teammate making an All-NBA team the year they won the title

Duncan won 2 championships without a teammate who has made a 2nd All-NBA team in their entire careers

In fact, since joining the Spurs Only ONCE did Duncan’s teammate make a 2nd All-NBA team
(David Robinson 1997-1998, Duncan’s rookie year)

And only TWICE did a teammate make an all-star game during the championship run (Parker in 2007, Manu in 2005)

And only TWICE did a teammate (DRob in 2000,2001) make any All-NBA team during the entire 9 year span where they won the 4 rings. Heck it's only 5 all-star appearances for those guys.

Am I missing something or is this leaps and bounds the worst cast ever for a team that could be considered a dynasty?

Duncan went to a team with Robinson on it because Robinson missed the entire year before. It would be one thing if Duncan went to a team that was rebuilding but they weren't because the Spurs were getting Robinson back the following year.

Shaqsquatch · Post #52 » by **Shaqsquatch** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:51 am

_BBIB_ wrote:Based on career achievements

Tony Parker
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eto01.html
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
3x All Star (2006, 2007, 2009)
HOF Career Prob (92nd)

David Robinson (since Duncan joined team)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nda01.html
3x All-Star (1998 NBA 2000 NBA 2001 NBA)
3x All NBA 1997-98 NBA All-NBA (2nd) 1999-00 NBA All-NBA (3rd) 2000-01 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Manu
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bma01.html
1x All-Star 2005 NBA
1x All-NBA (3rd) 2007-08 NBA
2007-08 NBA 6th Man of the Year
HOF Probability Career 0.061 (170)

Bruce Bowen
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nbr01.html
Honors
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

HOF Probability
Career 0.000 (612)

Duncan won 4 championships without a teammate making an All-NBA team the year they won the title

Duncan won 2 championships without a teammate who has made a 2nd All-NBA team in their entire careers

In fact, since joining the Spurs Only ONCE did Duncan’s teammate make a 2nd All-NBA team
(David Robinson 1997-1998, Duncan’s rookie year)

And only TWICE did a teammate make an all-star game during the championship run (Parker in 2007, Manu in 2005)

And only TWICE did a teammate (DRob in 2000,2001) make any All-NBA team during the entire 9 year span where they won the 4 rings. Heck it's only 5 all-star appearances for those guys.

Am I missing something or is this leaps and bounds the worst cast ever for a team that could be considered a dynasty?

Looks to me like he had 4 all star quality teamates for most of his run. Not to mention smartest organization and top 2 coach and some very capable role players over the past ten years. Close thread. :roll:

D-31 · Post #53 » by **D-31** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:57 am

David Robinson was never a stud.

Shaqsquatch · Post #54 » by **Shaqsquatch** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:57 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
_BBIB_ wrote:Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have 2 combined All-NBA teams and BOTH of those honors came AFTER the 4 rings.

James Worthy only made two All-NBA teams -- both thirds, and both coming after Showtime won its last championship. But nobody would ever question that he wasn't an elite player well before that. So I'm not sure how valid that measure is.

This

Jimmy76 · Post #55 » by **Jimmy76** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:58 am

2003 cast was weak

otherwise very strong

Dr Positivity · Post #56 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:09 am

Yes, because the list of cores who've won 3 titles together is very small to begin win. It's Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq and Duncan. Of those I'd say Manu/Parker/etc. is the weakest just by how stacked the rest were

http://www.last.fm/user/DPF55 · Post #57 » by **Buck You** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:20 am

Bucksfans1and2 wrote:
In 2003 he wasn't. He was in 99 though

How did that '03 team win a championship? They had nothing outside of Duncan on that team.

They won because Duncan is the best PF of all time and he was in his prime then.

Mamba Venom · Post #58 » by **Mamba Venom** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:44 am

Helkl no

Jordans first Bulls 3-peat team 91,92,93 and its NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Finals MVP Parker smokes BJ Armstrong

Robinson was an MVP and lead the league in scoring. Robinson is one of the greats, granted not Chamberlain great but lets compare him Will Purdue. The Admiral vs. Will freken Purdue.

Pippen was way better than the multi-all-star and gold medal/Olympic MVP (if they had one) Manu. Manu was great before he got hurt.

OT: Manu needs to do a cameo in the next batman movie as a thug just to see if anyone recognizes him.

The first Bulls team showed how great Jordan was. The Spurs had all that and then some other great role players.

Sean Elliot was also an all-star and top NBA PG not named Kidd or Stockton in 99.

Gongxi · Post #59 » by **Gongxi** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:06 am

The 2003 Spurs were really a bad team outside of Duncan. 99, 05, and 07 were all decent, though.

obiwanginobili · Post #60 » by **obiwanginobili** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:20 am

Wow, I rarely post here, but this warrants a response. First of all you are conflating all of Duncans teamates, in their primes no less, from all his championship runs to one mythical team. You have 95 MVP David Robinson, with 07 Tony Parker, with 05 Ginobili, and 96 Sean Elliott. Thats one epic cast right there. Unfortunately, they never played together. As has been stated many times, the best Parker that Robinson played with was a 20 year old who was sat out in favor of Speedy Claxton at crunch time, a first year bench player Manu Ginobili, who was wild and inconsistent albeit incredibly fun to watch. Duncan had essentially two years with Elliot as he didnt play much in 98 because of chronic tendinits or 2000 because of his kidney disease and retired in 2001. By the time that Duncan was a spur, Elliot had already declined dramatically. Next he was a 3 not a 1.

As for the fact did he have the worst supporting cast for a 3+ championship team, I think the obvious answer is yes, but as said previously, this isnt a fair comparison because other 3+ championship teams played in "more stacked eras" or I would like to think, had less parity due to the implications of the salary cap