(LOCK THREAD) The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+(Part 1)(NO INSULTING)

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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3381 » by Cavsfansince84 » Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:18 pm

Todeasy wrote:I understand the pessimism going into this series, but I really do think the Lakers could win and I don't think it would take some out of this world divine intervention.


I don't think it would be that crazy for the Lakers to win. I mean it would be surprising but I wouldn't be that shocked simply because if Murray has a sort of mediocre series it opens the door for a lot to happen. I'd still say I expect the Nuggets to win in 4-6 games but if it starts getting competitive the Lakers might surprise people. LeBron is probably 20% healthier/better than he was last year.
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3382 » by zimpy27 » Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:26 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
Todeasy wrote:I understand the pessimism going into this series, but I really do think the Lakers could win and I don't think it would take some out of this world divine intervention.


I don't think it would be that crazy for the Lakers to win. I mean it would be surprising but I wouldn't be that shocked simply because if Murray has a sort of mediocre series it opens the door for a lot to happen. I'd still say I expect the Nuggets to win in 4-6 games but if it starts getting competitive the Lakers might surprise people. LeBron is probably 20% healthier/better than he was last year.


What is the line between surprise and shock for you?

Like if you think 20% chance that Lakers win, is that a surprise or a shock if they win?
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3383 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:10 am

zimpy27 wrote:
What is the line between surprise and shock for you?

Like if you think 20% chance that Lakers win, is that a surprise or a shock if they win?


I only give the Lakers about a 5-10% chance but.. it just doesn't take much in the nba for things to turn and one team has a top 4 player of all time who's having one of the best 3 pt shooting seasons of his career. There's less shock when someone like LeBron leads a team to a big upset than if someone like the Thunder who have almost no playoff experience ran through everyone even as a 1 seed.
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3384 » by homecourtloss » Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:40 am

Todeasy wrote:I understand the pessimism going into this series, but I really do think the Lakers could win and I don't think it would take some out of this world divine intervention.


Vegas agrees for the most part. Lakers are +265 to win the series. Bigger underdogs win all the time in multiple sports. Vegas thinks it will be Nuggs in 5 (+265).

A real underdog is the Butlerless Heat (+965).
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3385 » by The Master » Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:26 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote: I only give the Lakers about a 5-10% chance but.. it just doesn't take much in the nba for things to turn and one team has a top 4 player of all time who's having one of the best 3 pt shooting seasons of his career. There's less shock when someone like LeBron leads a team to a big upset than if someone like the Thunder who have almost no playoff experience ran through everyone even as a 1 seed.

Yeah + I believe nowadays with bigger talent depth/different RS outcomes, our historic understanding of 'upsets' is/will be redefined in context of these 1v8 or 2v7 series.

I don't think it will happen - but I agree that I don't think Lakers eliminating Nuggets would be a 'shocker'.

You may argue that Lakers being just 47-35 and +1 SRS team is an argument in favor of them being overrated - but being 47-35 and the 7th seed with two healthy All-NBA players after WCF trip is such an outlier.

Not to mention conference disparity: Lakers could've realistically competed for the 2nd seed in the East (20-10 against EC and WC winning 58% of games overall in conference matchups).
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3387 » by Todeasy » Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:07 am

tsherkin wrote:
Todeasy wrote:Oh I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I think we're in agreement that they're quite unlikely to win this series. I'm more going against the idea that the only way that they CAN win is an injury or a miracle. I think there's quite a few small factors that if they swung the Lakers way, could change the results, with the cheif amongst them being the playcalling and coverages.


What is it which makes you think they can hang with the Nuggets in a 7-game series?

Playcalling didn't help the Lakers last year when they rocked a .271 FTr vs. Denver's .187 and still got swept, even as Reaves played at a level well above what we can expect from him this season.

The biggest issue is that LA doesn't really have a prayer of defending Denver, so they have to make up for it with offensive performance they haven't shown themselves capable of producing. It's kind of a nearly-zero margin for error in this series for them as a result of that disparity. If this was 2014 Lebron and they had a more interesting bench, I think I might be feeling it a little more but this is likely to be a pretty rough outing for the Lakers.

I guess what I'm asking is more:

1) How do you think they'll manage the large gap in offensive ability?
2) What makes you think they'll be any better at defending Denver this season?
3) Knowing they already had a large gap in FTr in their favor last year and got worked on the offensive glass, how do they overcome that this time?
4) What competitive advantage do you think they have in this series which would allow them to win?


EDIT: I realize you aren't saying they're going to, FWIW. I'm just trying to explore the other side of the argument.

I have no idea about the general playcalling rate in last years playoffs, but in the games they've played in this regular season it's apparently been poor. Nor quite sure what point is trying to be made in highlighting the FTr as based on how the two teams play, I expect a large discrepancy there. To answer each one of your questions from an optimistic viewpoint:

1) I think the gap can be closed by sharp sets. If they're just mismatch hunting and not doing anything to counter the help/shading that Denver will throw, they will be screwed.

2) I'm thinking about the defense of Denver from a few main spots. First, from every single stat I've seen Jamal Murray will not play as well as he did. He EVISCERATED their defense with a level of shotmaking that if it was our true level, he would be by far the best shooter ever (saw that he shot over 70% from mid range apparently). I also think Gabe Vincent provides similarly good screen navigation as Dennis did, but as a bit of a bigger body. Second, the defense of Jokic post-ups. As much as it was clowned, I do kind of like the idea of letting Rui/Bron guard Jokic and have AD help, or honestly just help/double him a bunch.

3) Again I expect the same gap in FTr, it's not something that we should expect to change based on how the two teams play offense/defense. I am a bit concerned about the ORB, but not by a huge amount. Outside of game 1 where they inexplicably started 3 guards, they were only out-rebounded by 4 on offense (not sure how to find ORB% for just those 3 games).

4) They do have a few advantages, hardly any series will just be one team completely outshining the other in every single aspect, but do I think it's enough to win? Probably not.
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3388 » by tsherkin » Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:36 am

Todeasy wrote:I have no idea about the general playcalling rate in last years playoffs, but in the games they've played in this regular season it's apparently been poor. Nor quite sure what point is trying to be made in highlighting the FTr as based on how the two teams play, I expect a large discrepancy there.


When I initially read your post, I read it in my head that you were talking about fouls being called. Must have misread, since that doesn't appear to be your intent based on your reply.

1) I think the gap can be closed by sharp sets. If they're just mismatch hunting and not doing anything to counter the help/shading that Denver will throw, they will be screwed.


Not sure I see that. Tight execution isn't really what I expect from the Lakers, and even if they get particular about that, their offensive ceiling is still noticeably lower.

2) I'm thinking about the defense of Denver from a few main spots. First, from every single stat I've seen Jamal Murray will not play as well as he did. He EVISCERATED their defense with a level of shotmaking that if it was our true level, he would be by far the best shooter ever (saw that he shot over 70% from mid range apparently).


It's likely that he won't play quite as well, yes., In the end, he only shot 40.5% from 3, though. He shot 61.1% inside the arc, which is around 10% better than what you usually see from him during the RS. He's normally a 51% FG guy inside the arc, and maintains that in the playoffs. He's also been at 39.8% to 42.5% from 3 during the last 3 postseasons, so you can expect a fairly similar level of production from him unless something changes.

3) Again I expect the same gap in FTr, it's not something that we should expect to change based on how the two teams play offense/defense. I am a bit concerned about the ORB, but not by a huge amount. Outside of game 1 where they inexplicably started 3 guards, they were only out-rebounded by 4 on offense (not sure how to find ORB% for just those 3 games).


Oh yes, I expect the Lakers to have a comfortable lead in drawn fouls. That's just the difference in their respective styles, as you noted. Meantime, LA remains the worst offensive rebounding team in the league, so we'll see what happens with that.

4) They do have a few advantages, hardly any series will just be one team completely outshining the other in every single aspect, but do I think it's enough to win? Probably not.


But what ARE the advantages? So far, if I've read correctly, you've noted mitigating factors and things which may not be as much a disaster as the previous series, but nothing which functions as a lever around which to drive their success. That's kind of what I'm trying to investigate. Other than draw rate, which is matched off well enough in other areas, where do they actually look better?
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3389 » by Todeasy » Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:54 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Todeasy wrote:I have no idea about the general playcalling rate in last years playoffs, but in the games they've played in this regular season it's apparently been poor. Nor quite sure what point is trying to be made in highlighting the FTr as based on how the two teams play, I expect a large discrepancy there.


When I initially read your post, I read it in my head that you were talking about fouls being called. Must have misread, since that doesn't appear to be your intent based on your reply.

1) I think the gap can be closed by sharp sets. If they're just mismatch hunting and not doing anything to counter the help/shading that Denver will throw, they will be screwed.


Not sure I see that. Tight execution isn't really what I expect from the Lakers, and even if they get particular about that, their offensive ceiling is still noticeably lower.

2) I'm thinking about the defense of Denver from a few main spots. First, from every single stat I've seen Jamal Murray will not play as well as he did. He EVISCERATED their defense with a level of shotmaking that if it was our true level, he would be by far the best shooter ever (saw that he shot over 70% from mid range apparently).


It's likely that he won't play quite as well, yes., In the end, he only shot 40.5% from 3, though. He shot 61.1% inside the arc, which is around 10% better than what you usually see from him during the RS. He's normally a 51% FG guy inside the arc, and maintains that in the playoffs. He's also been at 39.8% to 42.5% from 3 during the last 3 postseasons, so you can expect a fairly similar level of production from him unless something changes.

3) Again I expect the same gap in FTr, it's not something that we should expect to change based on how the two teams play offense/defense. I am a bit concerned about the ORB, but not by a huge amount. Outside of game 1 where they inexplicably started 3 guards, they were only out-rebounded by 4 on offense (not sure how to find ORB% for just those 3 games).


Oh yes, I expect the Lakers to have a comfortable lead in drawn fouls. That's just the difference in their respective styles, as you noted. Meantime, LA remains the worst offensive rebounding team in the league, so we'll see what happens with that.

4) They do have a few advantages, hardly any series will just be one team completely outshining the other in every single aspect, but do I think it's enough to win? Probably not.


But what ARE the advantages? So far, if I've read correctly, you've noted mitigating factors and things which may not be as much a disaster as the previous series, but nothing which functions as a lever around which to drive their success. That's kind of what I'm trying to investigate. Other than draw rate, which is matched off well enough in other areas, where do they actually look better?

One thing they can hang their hat on is being better at both getting to the rim and defending it.
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3390 » by rk2023 » Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:38 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
Todeasy wrote:I understand the pessimism going into this series, but I really do think the Lakers could win and I don't think it would take some out of this world divine intervention.


Vegas agrees for the most part. Lakers are +265 to win the series. Bigger underdogs win all the time in multiple sports. Vegas thinks it will be Nuggs in 5 (+265).

A real underdog is the Butlerless Heat (+965).


+265 has to be the biggest non 07 Spurs or 17/18 Warriors Vegas underdog of LeBron’s career though no?
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Re: The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Thread - 40K POINTS+, In Season Tornament MVP, 20X ALL STAR- (Part 1)(NO INSULTING) 

Post#3391 » by tsherkin » Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:50 pm

Todeasy wrote:One thing they can hang their hat on is being better at both getting to the rim and defending it.


I can definitely see the former. It's certainly a heavy reason they have such a notably better FTr. Doesn't actually net them a meaningful advantage in shooting, though, just the draw rate, so it means only so much to their O. Defending the rim is nice, but that's not going to help them when they're getting brutalized from 3 and in the mid-range, so not a huge factor. But fair enough, that at least identifies areas of relative strength, if nothing else.

I suppose much past this isn't going to mean too much until we watch the games. First game tonight, and we shall see!

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