The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[PistolPeteJR]

I’m a little confused. I don’t really watch or listen to sports shows or talk radio, so it’s very very possible I’m missing something, but I don’t see people saying LeBron is choking or even really criticizing him at all for being down to the Nuggets. The discourse I’ve seen is basically all just people matter-of-factly saying the Lakers are not as good as the Nuggets and so what has happened so far is expected/unsurprising. The individual player I’ve seen the most blame lobbed at was DLo after Game 1. I’ve seen virtually no real criticism of LeBron—except a little bit of questioning of his body language towards the end of Game 1 and his decision to settle for an open three at the end of Game 2. I guess those are criticisms, but they’re pretty minor (not to mention generally being couched with positives about what he did at other points in the games). I don’t see people treating this like a series LeBron should actually be *expected* to win or be the best player in, so I don’t really think the standard LeBron is being held to here is all that high at all (nor do I think he’s failing to meet that standard or being criticized for failing to meet some higher standard). But, again, I don’t watch idiots like Skip Bayless, so I guess I wouldn’t be super surprised if there’s someone doing that. But Skip Bayless shouldn’t be the barometer for the standard someone is being held to—he (and others like him) just takes extreme positions to drive clicks and views, and the whole point is to frequently say things that are so outrageous that people hate-watch it.

Buddy whether you like it or not, you've build for yourself a reputation; we know there's quite a bit of selective listening/reading that goes on with you when it comes to the LeBron topic.

But I'll bite. Go check out the GB, for starters, if you want a starting point for this discourse.

[nzahir]

I mean, can they get better versions of Dlo/Reaves/Rui and a real back up big? Seems unrealistic. 3 star model with Young won't work, imo. So it's kinda hopeless againt the Nuggets. Against any other team they have a real shot(maybe not Boston)

Who are better versions of Dlo, Reaves, and Rui in your eyes that are realistic?

Hoping for a Mavs implosion so maybe Kyrie wants out

I think Trae makes sense but a big contract and would cost a good amount. Much rather Donovan Mitchell if possible since he is a better defender

Rui's spot is easier to improve because he's not a starting caliber player. Miles Bridges or even Kuzma would've been way better than him

Guards are tricky. Ideally you would want a guy who can create an offense in the playoffs(Reaves and Dlo can't do it consistently) and a guy who can credibly defend PG/SG spots. If Russell or Reaves were just slighltly more dynamic offensively, you could've put Caruso/Melton type next to them, but with their mediocre shot creation, old Lebron and AD you need more from those spots

Rui>Kuzma for us imo

Kuzma is a bad shooter, he would help rebounding wise though and can maybe guard some quicker wings better, but pass. Also low iq

I thought about Caruso again and then remembered that Suns series and how it felt like we had so little scoring, shooting, and playmaking

But to be fair, none of the guards were as good offensively as Dlo or Reaves, so maybe could get away with 1

[RRR3]

Kind of infuriating how KD gets almost zero criticism for being down 0-2 to a worse team with a better supporting cast/coach. Yet people tried for years to put him in LeBron conversations. Dude had Harden + Kyrie, yet did nothing. Dude had Booker + CP3 + Ayton, did nothing. Now he has Booker + Beal, finished 6th, down 0-2 in the first round. Crickets.

Meanwhile year 21 LeBron is being held to prime Jordan standards by the same people who say he’s nowhere near Jordan. NBA discourse is truly bottom of the barrel.

It shouldn't be infuriating.

The Wolves have been every bit as good as Denver this year and would have easily been the #1 seed without Towns tearing his MCL.

Phoenix has a worse Top 2 [Durant and Booker are far lesser players than LeBron and AD respectively as a duo, especially defensively].

But, the most important factor is LeBron is and will always be held to the highest basketball standard ever. No player will ever be held to the same standard as LeBron. No player will ever be judged for every single decision he makes on a basketball court for 21+ years straight. He has had the most pressure and most scrutiny of any NBA player in NBA History and absolutely destroyed even the highest possible outcomes one thought a basketball player could achieve.

I don't mind LeBron being held to the highest standard and a standard no player will ever be held to--he was crowned the King in high school and has been the King of the NBA for 2 decades.

The problem is the people who hold LeBron to these insane standards tend to say stuff like he is "borderline top 10", in which case it makes no sense to hold him to said standards.

[Heej]

I’m a little confused. I don’t really watch or listen to sports shows or talk radio, so it’s very very possible I’m missing something, but I don’t see people saying LeBron is choking or even really criticizing him at all for being down to the Nuggets. The discourse I’ve seen is basically all just people matter-of-factly saying the Lakers are not as good as the Nuggets and so what has happened so far is expected/unsurprising. The individual player I’ve seen the most blame lobbed at was DLo after Game 1. I’ve seen virtually no real criticism of LeBron—except a little bit of questioning of his body language towards the end of Game 1 and his decision to settle for an open three at the end of Game 2. I guess those are criticisms, but they’re pretty minor (not to mention generally being couched with positives about what he did at other points in the games). I don’t see people treating this like a series LeBron should actually be *expected* to win or be the best player in, so I don’t really think the standard LeBron is being held to here is all that high at all (nor do I think he’s failing to meet that standard or being criticized for failing to meet some higher standard). But, again, I don’t watch idiots like Skip Bayless, so I guess I wouldn’t be super surprised if there’s someone doing that. But Skip Bayless shouldn’t be the barometer for the standard someone is being held to—he (and others like him) just takes extreme positions to drive clicks and views, and the whole point is to frequently say things that are so outrageous that people hate-watch it.

If you're not on social media or watching daytime television and presumably interact within a more mature bubble like say PC Board then your opinion on what you think the temperature on LeBron chatter is within giga casual circles is about as worthless as Darvin Ham.

I respect the courage to pull up in here tho and basically go "I don't really know what I'm talking about but here's my opinion anyway" . I find that's what gives bball discussions that extra kick haha

In regards to LeBron's standards. This has been known already. It's part and parcel with the Faustian Bargain the NBA made with ESPN (and other major sports networks) by making their league and specifically their marquee product in LeBron the main focus of the "embrace debate" mandate that took over ESPN in the early aughts. Intelligent discourse was sacrificed at the altar of media engagement.

[jalengreen]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

[Colbinii]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

Denver is a much better team than the Celtics. They have a much better track record and have a much better coach.

[Heej]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

[jalengreen]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

Denver is a much better team than the Celtics. They have a much better track record and have a much better coach.

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

I don't disagree, Celtics certainly seem more complacent than the Nuggets are against us, and of course we aren't having games with like 60% 3pt shooting either.

The much better coach part is why it's so frustrating, Spoelstra is a wizard and the Lakers have Ham lmao. And while denver > boston is fair, the current Lakers are also much better than the Heat squad that just won.

Dunno, not much to actually read into because they're completely different situations, but just something I thought about that made me even more annoyed. 10 straight man lol

[Heej]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

Denver is a much better team than the Celtics. They have a much better track record and have a much better coach.

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

I don't disagree, Celtics certainly seem more complacent than the Nuggets are against us, and of course we aren't having games with like 60% 3pt shooting either.

The much better coach part is why it's so frustrating, Spoelstra is a wizard and the Lakers have Ham lmao. And while denver > boston is fair, the current Lakers are also much better than the Heat squad that just won.

Dunno, not much to actually read into because they're completely different situations, but just something I thought about that made me even more annoyed. 10 straight man lol

Yea man it is what it is. This is what happens when the champs are a straight up better team than you but also try their hardest against you every single time. Never seen LeBron get bullied quite like this by a team quite like this lol. At least vs the Warriors he was usually the best player on the floor. He will never be the best player on the floor vs the Nuggets

I wonder how much of a difference it would really be if LeBron was in his prime though. Hard to imagine even the 2017 version doing much more vs these guys. KCP and AG are a nasty duo of defenders to take turns throwing at him. Reminds me a bit of when the Warriors had both Iggy and KD to take turns guarding LeBron.

[AEnigma]

Prime Lebron would not be as gassed at the end of games and would not be shying away from attacking to this degree. The Nuggets are good but they are not 2014 Spurs good, and certainly not 10 SRS + Kevin Durant good.

[Heej]

Prime Lebron would not be as gassed at the end of games and would not be shying away from attacking to this degree. The Nuggets are good but they are not 2014 Spurs good, and certainly not 10 SRS + Kevin Durant good.

Yea that's probably the main difference at the end of the day. You can only expect 1 good half out of LeBron now in most high level games. I'm not surprised the stats favor other teams, I'm just not sure they're a real accurate representation of how good the Nuggets actually are when they lean forward in their gaming chair and simply spam their spread PnR every possession. I find it almost impossible to imagine any of those offenses can keep up with the nuggets when it's winning time simply because of how traumatizing that PnR attack is

[Mos_Heat]

Who are better versions of Dlo, Reaves, and Rui in your eyes that are realistic?

Hoping for a Mavs implosion so maybe Kyrie wants out

I think Trae makes sense but a big contract and would cost a good amount. Much rather Donovan Mitchell if possible since he is a better defender

Rui's spot is easier to improve because he's not a starting caliber player. Miles Bridges or even Kuzma would've been way better than him

Guards are tricky. Ideally you would want a guy who can create an offense in the playoffs(Reaves and Dlo can't do it consistently) and a guy who can credibly defend PG/SG spots. If Russell or Reaves were just slighltly more dynamic offensively, you could've put Caruso/Melton type next to them, but with their mediocre shot creation, old Lebron and AD you need more from those spots

Rui>Kuzma for us imo

Kuzma is a bad shooter, he would help rebounding wise though and can maybe guard some quicker wings better, but pass. Also low iq

I thought about Caruso again and then remembered that Suns series and how it felt like we had so little scoring, shooting, and playmaking

But to be fair, none of the guards were as good offensively as Dlo or Reaves, so maybe could get away with 1

Kuzma is slightly better rebounder, can defend on the perimiter and can create his own shot. I think against the Nuggets it's more important than Rui's shaky shooting. It's not like Denver super concerned about it

[zimpy27]

Denver is leagues better than Celtics. They meet in the finals and Celtics are lucky to win 2 games

[EmpireFalls]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

This is a cope tbh. The truth is the Heat play fully adaptive basketball and aren’t afraid whatsoever. They took two games off LA in the bubble with sheer force of will.

The Lakers for whatever reason don’t have that at all. In a word, they are terrified of Denver… and piss their pants constantly whenever the Nuggets apply real pressure. It’s getting embarrassing how much they crumble down the stretch. They play with no conviction or belief, it’s self evident in their play to everyone watching. They don’t even think they have a chance, that’s the problem.

It’s exceedingly exceedingly rare for a team with as much talent as LA with two All-NBA guys to get swept once let alone twice in a row.

Like how exactly were the 2012-14 Pacers able to take 7 total games off the Heatles across 3 years, teams like the IT Celtics and the DeRozan/Lowry Raptors able to take games off the 16/17 Cavs, and LeBron and AD can’t take a single measly game off Joker and the Nugs in 10 tries? Even with a bad matchup even with a horrible disadvantage it’s just highly unlikely that sweeps should happen.

And yet a sweep this year is by far the most likely scenario. It will always vex me that LBJ got swept in 07 and 18, all time great players shouldn’t get swept in the Finals period, but to now get swept in consecutive years is an embarrassing black mark. Sweeps are always embarrassing no matter the circumstances.

[GSP]

Denver is a much better team than the Celtics. They have a much better track record and have a much better coach.

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

I don't disagree, Celtics certainly seem more complacent than the Nuggets are against us, and of course we aren't having games with like 60% 3pt shooting either.

The much better coach part is why it's so frustrating, Spoelstra is a wizard and the Lakers have Ham lmao. And while denver > boston is fair, the current Lakers are also much better than the Heat squad that just won.

Dunno, not much to actually read into because they're completely different situations, but just something I thought about that made me even more annoyed. 10 straight man lol

Yea man it is what it is. This is what happens when the champs are a straight up better team than you but also try their hardest against you every single time. Never seen LeBron get bullied quite like this by a team quite like this lol. At least vs the Warriors he was usually the best player on the floor. He will never be the best player on the floor vs the Nuggets

I wonder how much of a difference it would really be if LeBron was in his prime though. Hard to imagine even the 2017 version doing much more vs these guys. KCP and AG are a nasty duo of defenders to take turns throwing at him. Reminds me a bit of when the Warriors had both Iggy and KD to take turns guarding LeBron.

Bro what 17 Bron on this team and La is up 2-0 Imo

I dont care what Brons boxscore numbers say he is nowhere close to prime Bron specially 17. I mean maybe for a 5-8 minute stretch but no way.

[Peregrine01]

Prime Lebron would not be as gassed at the end of games and would not be shying away from attacking to this degree. The Nuggets are good but they are not 2014 Spurs good, and certainly not 10 SRS + Kevin Durant good.

Yea that's probably the main difference at the end of the day. You can only expect 1 good half out of LeBron now in most high level games. I'm not surprised the stats favor other teams, I'm just not sure they're a real accurate representation of how good the Nuggets actually are when they lean forward in their gaming chair and simply spam their spread PnR every possession. I find it almost impossible to imagine any of those offenses can keep up with the nuggets when it's winning time simply because of how traumatizing that PnR attack is

The Nuggets net rating in crunch time is +28 or something these last two seasons. They coast a lot but when they have to they turn it on and blow teams out of the water. I said in a previous post how they do the egalitarian offense thing most of the game and only really pull their ace card when they have to.

[Heej]

The hospital heat winning that game makes me even more annoyed that the lakers cant steal a single game off of denver in two years lol

The Nuggets have respect for the Lakers and play with full effort against them, with a team full of dogs that worked for years to earn the recognition they deserve and squeeze out every ounce of talent they have. The Celtics are lazy and entitled led by stars who are soft and have been handed the keys to the league repeatedly in terms of media favoritism despite repeatedly coming up short in the biggest moments all while consistently failing to live up to their potential year in and year out. They had no respect for Miami and it showed.

This is a cope tbh. The truth is the Heat play fully adaptive basketball and aren’t afraid whatsoever. They took two games off LA in the bubble with sheer force of will.

The Lakers for whatever reason don’t have that at all. In a word, they are terrified of Denver… and piss their pants constantly whenever the Nuggets apply real pressure. It’s getting embarrassing how much they crumble down the stretch. They play with no conviction or belief, it’s self evident in their play to everyone watching. They don’t even think they have a chance, that’s the problem.

It’s exceedingly exceedingly rare for a team with as much talent as LA with two All-NBA guys to get swept once let alone twice in a row.

Like how exactly were the 2012-14 Pacers able to take 7 total games off the Heatles across 3 years, teams like the IT Celtics and the DeRozan/Lowry Raptors able to take games off the 16/17 Cavs, and LeBron and AD can’t take a single measly game off Joker and the Nugs in 10 tries? Even with a bad matchup even with a horrible disadvantage it’s just highly unlikely that sweeps should happen.

And yet a sweep this year is by far the most likely scenario. It will always vex me that LBJ got swept in 07 and 18, all time great players shouldn’t get swept in the Finals period, but to now get swept in consecutive years is an embarrassing black mark. Sweeps are always embarrassing no matter the circumstances.

The nuggets turn into a completely different team when they just decide to spam their spread PnR. And they're relentless vs the Lakers. I don't think people realize that they hold the most unstoppable play in NBA history as their ace in the hole and simply opt not to use it for most of the game to get other guys involved. Sure one could argue not using it the whole game is why it's so good, but at the end of the day I just don't think anyone can go blow for blow vs that PnR.

I called that being the best PnR in NBA history even back in the bubble. Hell there's a thread here on PC Board years back where people were clowning me for saying it's better than the Nash-Amare PnR because at least you could switch and swarm Amare. Now everyone fully accepts what we're seeing.

I completely agree that the Lakers s*** the bed vs the nuggets. But they also didn't show Miami anywhere near as much respect as they did the Lakers last year. In all the nuggets interviews they repeatedly stressed how important it was to not let the Lakers get in a rhythm and how dangerous LeBron was. Now it's too late and the Nuggets are in their heads in a way I've never quite seen a team mentally break a LeBron team.

I think the closest was the 2016 Warriors until LeBron got some mojo back stuffing Curry on an after the whistle layup attempt in Cleveland during Game 3. Specifically remember watching that and thinking that's a moment he can build on to shake the yips he has vs Curry specifically. But in a matchup like this where the talent isn't tooo far off, all it takes is a little play or stretch here and there for confidence to start ballooning.

[Ian Scuffling]

To anyone with a modicum of sense, getting swept isn't anywhere near as bad as the casual fan thinks it is. Especially, given context. James' TEAM that got swept by the Spurs in 2007 had no business even sniffing the finals, but Lebron, at 22 years of age, dragged them there. A VASTLY superior defensive minded TEAM put the clamps on him and no one else had an idea of what to do, including the young inexperienced head coach. In 2018, they should have won game 1, but thanks to one of the most infamous brain farts in Finals history by a James' teammate, they lost. Oh and James had 50 in that game. He broke his hand in the locker room after the game and again, against a VASTLY superior TEAM, the Cavs, with an injured James, had zero chance and got swept. Again, context means everything.

[Jurassic_Park]

To anyone with a modicum of sense, getting swept isn't anywhere near as bad as the casual fan thinks it is. Especially, given context. James' TEAM that got swept by the Spurs in 2007 had no business even sniffing the finals, but Lebron, at 22 years of age, dragged them there. A VASTLY superior defensive minded TEAM put the clamps on him and no one else had an idea of what to do, including the young inexperienced head coach. In 2018, they should have won game 1, but thanks to one of the most infamous brain farts in Finals history by a James' teammate, they lost. Oh and James had 50 in that game. He broke his hand in the locker room after the game and again, against a VASTLY superior TEAM, the Cavs, with an injured James, had zero chance and got swept. Again, context means everything.

This is not even remotely close to 2007. The lakers have no business getting swept this year, none. And they won't get swept. Lakers are winning tonight, likely by double digits.

I'm putting a big bet on LA tonight.

[PistolPeteJR]

Vando and Wood were reported to be back tonight, but as of last night, still out. One way or another they'll both be real rusty regardless. I do like Wood's ability to stretch the floor in non-AD minutes in order to free up the paint for LeBron though.