Nikola Jokic - 23-24 NBA Thread - '24 NBA MVP & 23 Finals NBA MVP

[Texas Chuck]

And to add to both, while Lebron maybe still had some questions in 2011 since he hadn't won a title yet, he only went on and was in the finals for a decade straight and won 4 titles after that bad series. Nobody should still be talking about that series as other than a blip. And Mike had already made it clear how great he was, but he also came back and won 3 more titles after that first retirement.
.

Now here's the part you show me Jokic's equivalent of this, before or after.

The point is that we don't know how Jokic's career will end. He could never win another ring or he could win 2 more finals MVPs. Both seem totally possible

HIm asking me to tell him the future of what will happen in Jokic' career is such an unserious reply. And he and I have already covered we disagree about how well Jokic played prior to this season. He's just trying to bait me.

[oaktownwarriors87]

The 2022 Celtics were a very strong team so I don't buy that the Warriors had an easy run. At least not compared to the other recent champs.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS:

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
DET 1990 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/-0.23 (3.4425 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (2.8625 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/-0.53/-2.23 (2.8125 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/-0.17 (2.405 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865 average)
DEN 2023 -0.13/0.22/2.08/-0.43 (0.54 average)

[Djoker]

The 2022 Celtics were a very strong team so I don't buy that the Warriors had an easy run. At least not compared to the other recent champs.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS:

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
DET 1990 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/-0.23 (3.4425 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (2.8625 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/-0.53/-2.23 (2.8125 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/-0.17 (2.405 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865 average)
DEN 2023 -0.13/0.22/2.08/-0.43 (0.54 average)

This is good data. The only thing I don't like about it the first round opponent has a big effect on the overall number. For example, I would not consider the 1997 Bulls to have had an easy run because they faced a -3.94 SRS 1st round opponent. 1st round opponents are generally always easy for a high seed. It's not a coincidence that the most difficult titles runs are the 1995 Rockets and 2001 Lakers which won as low seeds.

[AEnigma]

The 2001 Lakers were the conference 2-seed. That just happened to be an unprecedented* year where the six “best” teams by SRS were all in the West, and the Lakers were matched up with #5 in the first round.

*In 1969 the top 4 SRS teams were in the Eastern conference, which would be equivalent to the top 8-9 SRS teams being in one conference today. The top 3 SRS teams were in the 1960 and 1962 Eastern conference, which would be equivalent to the top 10-11 SRS teams being in one conference today.

[TroubleS0me]

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[Dr Positivity]

I think the easiest competition of 2020s champions is definitely the Lakers. Sub 500 Blazers, Russ/Harden with no center, pre Jokic MVP years Nuggs and then injured Heat. After that it's subjective but I think the Nuggets at least have a case for a harder road than Bucks and Warriors. The Lakers, Suns and Twolves by the end of the season are not the same teams and the Heat for their weak regular season had a much harder road to the finals than say the 21 Suns and are a core that almost made 3 finals. I'd rank Bucks 2nd easiest when you consider that Brunson and Doncic Mavs look more legit conference finalist in retrospect for Warriors.

[lessthanjake]

I think the easiest competition of 2020s champions is definitely the Lakers. Sub 500 Blazers, Russ/Harden with no center, early Jokic Nuggs and then injured Heat. After that it's subjective but I think the Nuggets at least have a case for a harder road than Bucks and Warriors. The Lakers, Suns and Twolves by the end of the season are not the same teams and the Heat for their weak regular season had a much harder road to the finals than say the 21 Suns and are a core that almost made 3 finals. I'd rank Bucks 2nd easiest when you consider that Brunson and Doncic Mavs look more legit conference finalist in retrospect for Warriors.

Yeah, the 2022 Mavs look like a stronger opponent in retrospect than they did at the time, given that we know what Brunson is capable of. I do think Brunson is better now than he was then, but he was already showing out back then too. I personally have a much higher view of the 2022 Mavs now than I did then, since my view of Brunson is very different now.

That said, I think the same thing could be said about the 2020 Lakers to some degree. At the time, the Nuggets and Heat felt like weak matchups in the WCF and Finals. But, since then, the Nuggets have blossomed and won a title (albeit with a pretty different roster, and a much-improved Jokic), and the Heat have made another Finals and also lost a close Game 7 in the ECF another year. Both of those teams definitely look stronger in retrospect than they seemed at the time.

Meanwhile, I think there are some runs that haven’t aged very well. For instance, unlike with the teams discussed above, the 2021 Hawks definitely don’t seem better in retrospect. That team felt like a fluke at the time, and unlike with the 2022 Mavs, 2020 Nuggets, and 2020 Heat, that feeling hasn’t been disproven with time.

[Dr Positivity]

That said, I think the same thing could be said about the 2020 Lakers to some degree. At the time, the Nuggets and Heat felt like weak matchups in the WCF and Finals. But, since then, the Nuggets have blossomed and won a title (albeit with a pretty different roster, and a much-improved Jokic), and the Heat have made another Finals and also lost a close Game 7 in the ECF another year. Both of those teams definitely look stronger in retrospect than they seemed at the time.

I would have respected the Heat as competition if not for injuries in finals. The Nuggets are probably the best opponent after that is taken into account.

[oaktownwarriors87]

The 2022 Celtics were a very strong team so I don't buy that the Warriors had an easy run. At least not compared to the other recent champs.

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS:

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
DET 1990 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/-0.23 (3.4425 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (2.8625 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/-0.53/-2.23 (2.8125 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/-0.17 (2.405 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865 average)
DEN 2023 -0.13/0.22/2.08/-0.43 (0.54 average)

This is good data. The only thing I don't like about it the first round opponent has a big effect on the overall number. For example, I would not consider the 1997 Bulls to have had an easy run because they faced a -3.94 SRS 1st round opponent. 1st round opponents are generally always easy for a high seed. It's not a coincidence that the most difficult titles runs are the 1995 Rockets and 2001 Lakers which won as low seeds.

I have versions with the all the negative teams zeroed out and another with the first round eliminated, though that's not fair to teams like Houston that defeated a 7+ SRS in the first round. Zeroing out all of the negative teams is probably the best way to compare.

[Djoker]

Championship difficulty by average opponent SRS:

HOU 1995 6.44/5.90/3.85/7.76 (5.9875 average)
LAL 2001 3.63/7.92/6.07/4.52 (5.535 average)
CHI 1992 7.97/5.56/5.51/1.77 (5.2025 average)
LAL 2002 3.67/7.61/6.28/3.21 (5.1925 average)
LAL 2000 4.15/6.36/5.24/3.04 (4.6975 average)
DAL 2011 6.76/3.81/6.01/1.84 (4.605 average)
CLE 2016 10.38/4.08/3.49/0.43 (4.595 average)
SAS 2014 4.15/6.66/4.44/2.91 (4.54 average)
HOU 1994 6.48/4.10/4.68/2.59 (4.4625 average)
CHI 1996 6.27/5.87/6.30/-0.67 (4.4425 average)
GSW 2022 7.02/3.12/5.37/2.15(4.415 average)
TOR 2019 6.42/8.04/2.25/0.28 (4.2475 average)
LAL 2010 3.37/4.67/5.33/3.55 (4.23 average)
SAS 2003 4.42/7.90/2.71/1.56 (4.1475 average)
CHI 1993 7.40/5.40/2.24/1.46 (4.125 average)
CHI 1991 5.73/6.25/2.45/1.88 (4.0775 average)
LAL 2009 6.48/3.12/3.73/2.31 (3.9075 average)
SAS 2007 3.33/3.06/7.28/1.69 (3.84 average)
SAS 2005 3.31/7.08/2.59/2.23 (3.8025 average)
DET 1990 6.38/2.13/4.11/1.26 (3.47 average)
MIA 2006 5.96/6.24/1.11/0.51 (3.455 average)
GSW 2017 2.87/7.13/4.00/-0.23 (3.4425 average)
MIA 2012 6.44/2.26/2.59/2.39 (3.42 average)
GSW 2018 0.59/8.21/1.48/2.89 (3.2925 average)
GSW 2015 4.08/3.82/3.62/1.13 (3.1625 average)
CHI 1997 6.94/5.34/3.67/(-3.94) (3.0025 average)
DET 2004 4.35/4.93/1.88/0.42 (2.895 average)
MIL 2021 5.67/2.14/4.24/-0.6 (2.8625 average)
BOS 2008 7.34/6.67/-0.53/-2.23 (2.8125 average)
CHI 1998 6.73/3.08/-0.39/-0.43 (2.2475 average)
SAS 1999 1.45/5.67/2.67/-0.17 (2.405 average)
MIA 2013 6.67/3.34/-0.02/-1.83 (2.04 average)
LAL 2020 2.59/2.35/3.13/-0.61 (1.865 average)
DEN 2023 -0.13/0.22/2.08/-0.43 (0.54 average)

This is good data. The only thing I don't like about it the first round opponent has a big effect on the overall number. For example, I would not consider the 1997 Bulls to have had an easy run because they faced a -3.94 SRS 1st round opponent. 1st round opponents are generally always easy for a high seed. It's not a coincidence that the most difficult titles runs are the 1995 Rockets and 2001 Lakers which won as low seeds.

I have versions with the all the negative teams zeroed out and another with the first round eliminated, though that's not fair to teams like Houston that defeated a 7+ SRS in the first round. Zeroing out all of the negative teams is probably the best way to compare.

Yea to give an example.

Team A: -3 opponent 1st Round, +1 SRS opponent 2nd Round, +6 opponent CF, +10 opponent Finals --> Average: +3.5
Team B: +1 opponent 1st Round, +3 SRS opponent 2nd Round, +4 opponent CF, +6 opponent Finals --> Average: +3.5

Hopefully everyone would agree that Team A had a much more difficult title run despite the same average opponent SRS.

[tsherkin]

35/7/7 with 3 steals, on 15/26 shooting., Not a bad night from the Joker as the Nuggets won Game 4.

[TheFire]

This guy woke up on Friday and realized he’s a 3-time MVP. He’s playing his best basketball of the playoffs these last 2 games. He is locked in at the moment. He played great against the Lakers but honestly seemed bored at times and then had a stinker the first 2 games against Minny, but it was the wake-up call he and the Nuggets needed.

[Djoker]

I wonder how much of the Nuggets improvement is more energy and how much is just shooting the ball better. They look much more fired up but a lot of it is simply making shots too.

Through the first 7 games of the postseason, they shot 32.2% from 3pt land. The last two games they are at 46.6%. The law of averages balanced out at the right time. The Lakers series was as close as it was because the Nuggets shot the ball horribly.

[Cavsfansince84]

I wonder how much of the Nuggets improvement is more energy and how much is just shooting the ball better. They look much more fired up but a lot of it is simply making shots too.

Through the first 7 games of the postseason, they shot 32.2% from 3pt land. The last two games they are at 46.6%. The law of averages balanced out at the right time. The Lakers series was as close as it was because the Nuggets shot the ball horribly.

I think its just having their back up against the wall and playing like it. I had doubts that the Wolves could really get the kill so to speak on them and now it feels like its the Nuggets' series to lose.

[TroubleS0me]

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[Jaqua92]

Now here's the part you show me Jokic's equivalent of this, before or after.

The point is that we don't know how Jokic's career will end. He could never win another ring or he could win 2 more finals MVPs. Both seem totally possible

HIm asking me to tell him the future of what will happen in Jokic' career is such an unserious reply. And he and I have already covered we disagree about how well Jokic played prior to this season. He's just trying to bait me.

He exists to tear down Jokic and Michael Jordan while propping up LeBron with out of context data that fits his argument.

I've never seen a single comment that wasn't one of those 3 items. I've never seen anything like it.

[OhayoKD]

The point is that we don't know how Jokic's career will end. He could never win another ring or he could win 2 more finals MVPs. Both seem totally possible

HIm asking me to tell him the future of what will happen in Jokic' career is such an unserious reply. And he and I have already covered we disagree about how well Jokic played prior to this season. He's just trying to bait me.

He exists to tear down Jokic and Michael Jordan while propping up LeBron with out of context data that fits his argument.

I've never seen a single comment that wasn't one of those 3 items. I've never seen anything like it.

Bro still triggered I called out fake isolation data as fake.

Learn how to make points or accept no one caring. It's not that hard

[frica]

Looks like Jokic finished the game with 0 turnovers.
Ridiculous.

[Mickey8]

All they going to talk about today on TV is how Gobert is the trash. Yet they were so amazed when Shaq was dominating Dale Davis, Aaron Williams,Tod McCullough,Matt Geiger etc.

[TroubleS0me]

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