defense only - KAJ vs Eaton

[lorak]

Who was better on defensive end? And why?

[TrueLAfan]

This depends on what you want out of a defensive big and what your defensive setup is like. Eaton was a huge physical presence and blocked shots like nobody’s business. He also was too slow to switch off and play help D, couldn’t go outside to guard perimeter playing big men, fouled in bunches, and didn’t really have a superhigh basketball IQ. His defense was predicated on being tall; it was Eaton who Frank Layden was referring to when he said, “You can’t coach height.”

In terms of court time, it’s actually pretty close for me. Eaton didn’t have broad based skills, but what he did well (i.e. be tall and block shots) was valuable and he was superlative at it. But I think it’s important to point out that the two years he was DPOY were two of only three years that Eaton played over 2600 minutes. Kareem played over 2600 minutes 15 times. And Kareem had overall defensive skills; he wasn’t the biggest, but he bodied up against big men. He wasn’t the fastest, but he’d go out to guard the Sikma and Adams and other perimeter Cs. He wasn’t the greatest shot blocker, but he was very, very good. He was mobile enough to switch well and play off the ball D. And Kareem was just a smarter ballplayer overall. I’d rather have the guy that had a better overall skill set and could stay on the court longer, so give me Kareem for peak season. In terms of career, of course, it’s no contest.

[tsherkin]

I wouldn't even hesitate before taking Kareem.

Eaton was a fantastic shot-blocker and an impactful defender but in no way as useful as prime Kareem.

[bastillon]

I wouldn't even hesitate before taking Kareem.

Eaton was a fantastic shot-blocker and an impactful defender but in no way as useful as prime Kareem.

of course this has absolutely NO SUPPORT in team DRtg as you could easily make a conclusion that Kareem wasn't even in Eaton's league... when Jazz were rocking TOP1-2 DRtg yearly, Kareem's teams were little above average for vast majority of his prime. even taking for granted that KAJ's teammates sucked and Eaton had some epic defenders around him, Kareem still has a long way to go. he never anchored so great defensive team like Eaton's Jazz.

look at this:

Not really. Moses was a better rebounder and that's it. Kareem was light-years ahead on defense and that alone seals it.

[...]I don't think 80s KAJ was dominant at all so light-years is probably stretching it a little bit.

Code: Select all

    year       combined DWS
    70             20.7
    71             23.7
    72             28.8
    73             33.3
    74             30.6
    75             19.4
    76             19.1
    77             21.8
    78             20.0
    79             22.7
    80             23.6

21 DWS is league average defense. 8 of these teams were right around average defensively. Bucks 72-74 weren't all-time great either, they were just one-of-the-best-level. name any great defender (Russ, Dwight, Thurmond, Mutombo, Zo, Ben Wallace, Duncan, Hakeem) it just doesn't happen.

only KG had it somewhat similar, but there are 2 significant differences:

-Cassell/Hudson-Peeler/Gill-Szczerbiak aren't anywhere near as good as Kareem's teammates who were usually average/decent defenders in general

-08 Celtics had 41 DWS, 09 Celtics were right around 40+ level before KG's injury and last year's Celtics also played on that level when it mattered (and when they weren't demolished by injuries). none of Kareem's teams ever approached that level

I'm seriously questioning Kareem's defensive rep. his teams performed way too poorly to consider him all-time great defender. in his defensive prime only 3 teams played significantly above average and weren't all-time dominant either. that's just not enough.

[bastillon]

to follow-up on Eaton:

Code: Select all

        year       combined DWS
        82              9.3
        83             19.8
        84             19.9
        85             30.9
        86             26.6
        87             30.8
        88             31.5
        89             34.9
        90             26.6
        91             26.8
        92             26.5

82 was the last year before Eaton came around. suddenly they improved by 10 DWS despite the fact that Eaton was a rookie playing 20 MPG. same trend could be seen throughout his career. when he was in his prime, Jazz were rocking yearly 30 DWS whereas Kareem's teams were most often in 20-23 DWS ballpark.

I know Eaton had Malone and Stockton, but KAJ had some good defenders around him, too. clearly nobody on Malone's level, but still it doesn't justify that big DWS differential. there's a reason Eaton was beating Hakeem for DPOYs when he was in his defensive prime.