RealGM Top 100 List #14

Post #1 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 9:54 pm

players I am considering, by position:

C David Robinson to me is the best left in terms of peak. Moses has great longevity though and the third possibility is George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). I rate Robinson higher at the moment because Moses's defense is solid on ball but he isn't a defensive anchor and defensive anchors like the Admiral (anchor, Admiral, oh never mind) tend to have an impact out of proportion to their numbers.

PF Karl Malone is the obvious choice, though I have seen Dirk, Petit, Barkley, and even Rodman rated over him by various posters.

SF Erving again is the obvious choice. Durant is interesting.

SG The weakest position left. DWade or Drexler probably the top candidates. Wade is no more healhty than West and lacks the outside shooting and is less dominant; Drexler peaks lower than Wade (but plays more).

PG West with Frazier, Stockman, and Nash as long shots. West was also generating outstanding offenses in LA but he adds excellent defense, super clutch performances, (and outstanding leadership though that can be said of the other remaining PGs as well). Just the most impactful PG remaining by a healthy margin.

To me, West combines the most outstanding combination of dominating his position, great playoff performances, great skills, and great leadership. Erving is the only other candidate that is strong in all key areas but he played in a watered down league in the 70s/80s. Despite this, he's certainly close and either Doc, the Mailman, or the Admiral is my next choice unless someone convinces me I'm underrating someone badly.

VOTE: JERRY WEST

ShaqAttack3234 · Post #2 » by **ShaqAttack3234** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 10:31 pm

I'm considering 3 players.

Jerry West, Charles Barkley and Moses Malone. I'm thinking Moses will be 3rd because while Moses was a better defender than Barkley, I believe Barkley was a better offensive player due to his post game, and especially passing, with passing being my biggest problem with Malone's game. But Malone's dominance of the league in '82 and '83 at least makes him a candidate.

But West may be the most well-rounded, and most consistent winner. For my own list, I have Oscar and West right next to each other, with Oscar ahead of him, because based on their perception at the time, it seemed Oscar was considered better, but not by enough to have a big gap between them. West also had that modern jump shot back then, and is one of the easier guards from that era to see translating to later eras, if that sort of thing is important to you. Would seem like he'd be among the best scorers, shooters, playmakers and defensive guards of his era with some huge playoff runs, so it's tough to ignore him.

I'd say I'm probably leaning towards West over Barkley at the moment, but it's close enough.

BallerTed · Post #3 » by **BallerTed** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 10:34 pm

I don't have a vote but if I did I would pick David Robinson

He has the greatest impact defensively of anyone left on the board and is also the best two-way player left.

Robinson joined a Spurs 21 win Spurs team for the '89-'90 season and they improved by 25 wins from the previous one. One of the best 2-way bigs of all-time. 2nd All-Time in WS Per 48 behind only Michael Jordan and the 4th all-time leader in PER behind only Jordan, Lebron and Shaq.

In comparison to a player like Karl Malone who is currently in the discussion for #14

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%---- ORTG----DRTG----WS/48----PER
D-Rob ---- '90-'98 ---- 34.0 -----15.8 ---- 4.1 -----.525 -----.590 ---- 118 ---- 97 -----.261 ---- 27.8
Malone ----- '90-'98 ---- 36.9 ---- 14.6 ---- 4.9 ---- .536 ----.594 ----117 ----102 ----.234 ---- 26.0

D-Rob leads in most categories and where Malone wins out it's relatively close. Offensively I give Malone the overall edge with more points and greater efficiency, but not by a whole lot. Keep in mind D-Rob didn't have the privilege of having a Stockton type player to feed him buckets. On the other side of the ball it's Robinson by a good margin as Malone simply didn't have that type of impact defensively. Malone obviously wins out in longevity and durability, having a longer prime. Peak wise I go with D-Rob as few players in history have had the two-way impact that he had at his apex.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%--- ORTG----DRTG----WS/48----PER
D-Rob ---- '90-'98 --- 31.0 ---- 16.1 ---- 3.8 -----481 ----- .549 ---- 112 ---- 100 -----.188 ---- 24.1
Malone---- '90-'98 ---- 35.5 ---- 14.9 ---- 4.2 ---- .466 ----.532 ---- 109 ---- 103 -----.168 ---- 23.2

Both players have reputations of performing below their normal standards in the playoffs and by looking at the stats you can clearly see why. Malone's has the greater drop-off in efficiency and D-Rob has the bigger drop-off in points. Overall in the playoffs Robinson wins in all categories except assists (0.4 difference) and scoring with Malone's 4ppg lead coming on noticeably less efficiency, not enough imo to make up for the defensive and rebounding advantages that D-Rob enjoys.

ThaRegul8r · Post #4 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 11:04 pm

penbeast0 wrote:players I am considering, by position:

C David Robinson to me is the best left in terms of peak. Moses has great longevity though and the third possibility is George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). I rate Robinson higher at the moment because Moses's defense is solid on ball but he isn't a defensive anchor and defensive anchors like the Admiral (anchor, Admiral, oh never mind) tend to have an impact out of proportion to their numbers.

PF Karl Malone is the obvious choice, though I have seen Dirk, Petit, Barkley, and even Rodman rated over him by various posters.

SF Erving again is the obvious choice. Durant is interesting.

SG The weakest position left. DWade or Drexler probably the top candidates. Wade is no more healhty than West and lacks the outside shooting and is less dominant; Drexler peaks lower than Wade (but plays more).

PG West with Frazier, Stockman, and Nash as long shots. West was also generating outstanding offenses in LA but he adds excellent defense, super clutch performances, (and outstanding leadership though that can be said of the other remaining PGs as well). Just the most impactful PG remaining by a healthy margin.

I'm not a part of the project, but of those players listed, it would probably be West and Erving for me, in that order.

Post #5 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 11:23 pm

I'll refrain from voting at this point, but I'll give my thoughts at the moment:

Jerry West is the guy I'm sort of in love with. Right now. To me he seems like a guy on the low end of the top tier of offensive GOAT contenders and so far as I can tell a legit defensive force. I have him ahead of Oscar on my list. I find him most impressive...but there is a longevity issue to consider, particularly relative to...

Karl Malone. I really don't know if I can put West over Malone.

Dirk Nowitzki is a guy who I'm starting to seriously consider vs Malone. I definitely lean Mailman, but someone might be able to sway me with a good comparison.

Julius Erving love him, but I think I've gone pretty in depth with my concerns about him. I'd like more consistent domination. Maybe someone will sway me that I'm overreacting.

David Robinson is the least likely pick for me right now because I've seen a lot of good Malone vs Robinson debate, and Malone side has always seemed more convincing.

ElGee · Post #6 » by **ElGee** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:05 am

I've updated the WOWY thread and created a spreadsheet with all of my current runs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There are still a few I need to transport over and I few more I need to run, but the current data set is fairly complete. I still think the easiest way to use this information analytically is to look at the year-by-year behaviors of a team (e.g. even if Superstar A misses 0 games, what else happens when starting center goes down for 25g?) You can use the spreadsheet to do this on your own, as I do not have time to make (and update) historical runs for players outside of the top-20 provided in the WOWY thread.

Post #7 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:10 am

ElGee wrote:I've updated the WOWY thread and created a spreadsheet with all of my current runs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There are still a few I need to transport over and I few more I need to run, but the current data set is fairly complete. I still think the easiest way to use this information analytically is to look at the year-by-year behaviors of a team (e.g. even if Superstar A misses 0 games, what else happens when starting center goes down for 25g?) You can use the spreadsheet to do this on your own, as I do not have time to make (and update) historical runs for players outside of the top-20 provided in the WOWY thread.

Issue with the link. Is this it?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

shutupandjam · Post #8 » by **shutupandjam** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:11 am

A few people have been asking about post-injury (1997) David Robinson. Lots of evidence suggests that from 1998-2001 he was a clear top 10 (and likely top 5) player in the NBA and neck and neck with Duncan (I think there's an argument to be had that he was just as important as Duncan to the 1999 championship run, though it seems like he never gets due credit there). After 2001, Robinson's age started showing and Duncan hit his absolute peak, but it's clear that Robinson was still a productive player, particularly on defense.

Here are some numbers for post injury Robinson:

1998
npi rapm
Robinson: +3.6 (#15 in the nba)
Duncan: +4.0 (#9)

estimated impact
Regular season:
Robinson: +5.7 (#3)
Duncan: +3.4 (#8)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +4.7 (#4)
Duncan: +3.1 (#8)

ws/48
Regular season:
Robinson: 0.269 (#1)
Duncan: 0.192 (#9)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.183 (#9)
Duncan: 0.155 (#18)

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 27.8 (#3)
Duncan: 22.6 (#5)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 24.1 (#6)
Duncan: 20.4 (#13)

1999:
npi rapm
Robinson: +6.6 (#1)
Duncan: +3.1 (#15)

estimated impact
Regular Season:
Robinson: +5.0 (#2)
Duncan: +4.4 (#6)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +4.9 (#2)
Duncan: +5.1 (#1)

ws/48
Regular Season:
Robinson: 0.261 (#1)
Duncan: 0.213 (#7)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.243 (#3)
Duncan: 0.243 (#2)

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 24.9 (#3)
Duncan: 23.2 (#7)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 23.3 (#8)
Duncan: 25.1 (#5)

2000
npi rapm
Robinson: +3.4 (#17)
Duncan: +3.8 (#11)

estimated impact
Regular Season:
Robinson: +4.4 (#4)
Duncan: +4.8 (#3)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +4.1 (#3)
Duncan: DNP

ws/48
Regular Season:
Robinson: 0.238 (#3)
Duncan: 0.218 (#6)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.220 (#2)
Duncan: DNP

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 24.6 (#5)
Duncan: 24.8 (#4)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 25.6 (#4)
Duncan: DNP

2001
npi rapm
Robinson: +4.1 (#9)
Duncan: +6.6 (#1)

estimated impact
Regular Season:
Robinson: +4.2 (#5)
Duncan: +5.0 (#2)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +3.2 (#12)
Duncan: +4.6 (#3)

ws/48
Regular Season:
Robinson: 0.246 (#1)
Duncan: 0.200 (#9)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.207 (#7)
Duncan: 0.173 (#15)

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 23.7 (#10)
Duncan: 23.8 (#9)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 24.6 (#7)
Duncan: 25.4 (#3)

2002
npi rapm
Robinson: +3.2 (#17)
Duncan:+5.3 (#2)

estimated impact
Regular Season:
Robinson: +2.9 (#16)
Duncan: +5.9 (#2)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +0.6 (#46 - low MP)
Duncan: +7.9 (#1)

ws/48
Regular Season:
Robinson: 0.211 (#5)
Duncan: 0.257 (#2)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.102 (DNQ, 82 MP)
Duncan: 0.247 (#2)

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 20.3 (#20)
Duncan: 27.0 (#2)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 12.6 (DNQ, 82 MP)
Duncan: 31.8 (#1)

2003
npi rapm
Robinson: +3.2 (#14)
Duncan: +6.2 (#1)

estimated impact
Regular Season:
Robinson: +1.5 (#46)
Duncan: +5.9 (#1)

Playoffs:
Robinson: +1.9 (#25)
Duncan: +7.3 (#1)

ws/48
Regular Season:
Robinson: 0.172 (#23)
Duncan: 0.249 (#4)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 0.204 (#4)
Duncan: 0.279 (#1)

PER
Regular Season:
Robinson: 17.8 (#47)
Duncan: 26.9 (#3)

Playoffs:
Robinson: 17.7 (#28)
Duncan: 28.4 (#2)

ElGee · Post #9 » by **ElGee** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:12 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
ElGee wrote:I've updated the WOWY thread and created a spreadsheet with all of my current runs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There are still a few I need to transport over and I few more I need to run, but the current data set is fairly complete. I still think the easiest way to use this information analytically is to look at the year-by-year behaviors of a team (e.g. even if Superstar A misses 0 games, what else happens when starting center goes down for 25g?) You can use the spreadsheet to do this on your own, as I do not have time to make (and update) historical runs for players outside of the top-20 provided in the WOWY thread.

Issue with the link. Is this it?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Yes that's it -- thanks. It's truncating on me for some reason...

DannyNoonan1221 · Post #10 » by **DannyNoonan1221** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:12 am

My vote is for Moses Malone.

Career leader in Offensive Rebounds, and it is not even close.
- My caveat about offensive rebounds: Basketball (and sports in general) is a game of momentum swings. back and forth, back and forth. Winning a game often comes down to controlling another team’s run and being able to stop their momentum while creating your own. Outside of a few different things (highlight-reel scoring plays/dunks), I don’t think there is one single play that can be recorded in a box score that has a bigger impact on momentum than offensive rebounding. I have brought this up before- not only are you giving your team another 24 seconds (most of the time), but you are chipping away at the will of the defensive team.

Boxing out is drilled into players minds. The defense should be in position to box out and should have the advantage of getting the ball off the rim. For him to dominate a statistic that tracks a player’s ability to get to the ball, most of the time from a disadvantage, is overlooked too often for me.

3x MVP winner, 1 Finals MVP and a title. While these accolades don’t necessarily make the argument themselves, they prove he could succeed in all the different environments we analyze- dominance throughout a regular season, stand out as the best player on a championship team, be an integral and positive force on a championship team. I think these things only solidify what the numbers show.

I know his defense has been questioned. And that is what holds him back in these rankings and why he still hasn’t been voted in. His offense was top 10, he DOMINATED a stat that I think is severely undervalued in these threads (offensive rebounds).

I believe this spot should be between Moses, DRobinson, West, Dirk, Baylor and Pettit. Moses has his weaknesses but I think his strengths help him make up that ground and has earned him this spot.

SactoKingsFan · Post #11 » by **SactoKingsFan** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:20 am

I'm leaning towards voting for Dr J over Jerry West since I think he had the best peak of all the remaining candidates and I'm very impressed with his GOAT level 76 playoffs.

Peak

Peak (74-76) RS Per 100: 32.4 PTS, 12.5 TRB, 6.0 AST, 2.7 STL, 2.4 BLK, 4.3 TOV
Peak (74-76) RS: 26.8 PER, .565 TS%, .341 FTr, 113 ORtg, 96 DRtg, .247 WS/48

Peak (74-76) PS Per 100: 34.2 PTS, 12.2 TRB, 5.6 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.8 TOV
Peak (74-76) PS: 26.7 PER, .577 TS%, .379 FTr, 118 ORtg, 100 DRtg, .253 WS/48

GOAT level 76 Playoffs

Carries Nets to ABA title averaging 37.4 PTS/13.6 TRB/5.3 AST/2.1 STL/2.2 BLK per 100 on .610 TS%

32.0 PER, .527 FTr, 128 ORtg, 103 DRtg, .321 WS/48

I'm not really concerned about Dr J peaking in the ABA since it seems to have been comparable to the NBA from 74-76. Dr J's Nets won the 76 ABA Title against the Denver Nuggets who were one of the best NBA teams (4.95 SRS, 2nd) the following season.

Baller2014 · Post #12 » by **Baller2014** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:44 am

Well, Kobe makes it in as unlucky #13, which is a few spots too high IMO, but not totally unreasonable. Now hopefully Karl Malone and Dr J get the traction they deserve. My post for why I'll be voting Karl Malone is below.
Tentative Vote- Karl Malone

Dr J v.s Karl Malone

Spoiler:

I'll outline again my thoughts on Dr J v.s Kobe:

Spoiler:

Baller2014 wrote:I was thinking about these two RE: the top 100 project:

The case for Dr J
[spoiler]It’s odd that there has not been more traction for Dr J to this point. He has probably the highest peak of any remaining player, tonnes of longevity, great intangibles and could play both ends of the floor. The only real argument against him is that the ABA doesn’t count, and that’s an absurd argument which I’ll cover.

To begin with, let’s look at a post from Truelafan I found while searching realgm on this very subject:
Julius Erving has a higher peak. Kobe Bryant is a great player. He had had some amazing years. He has never had a year like Julius Erving had in 1976, where Doc led his team in...well, everything. He averaged 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 steals and almost 2 blocks per game. The kicker is that he played [better in the postseason and led a pretty nondescript team to a title. In the finals, he had Bobby Jones defending him. Bobby Jones has a legitimate claim to being one of the 5 best defensive players of all time. He was at his peak when he went up against Julius Erving in 1976. Erving dismantled him. Erving's 1976 season is one of the all time dominant seasons in every way. Kobe has never had a year like that. He's had some that were close...but so has Erving. So you kind of have to go with Erving's peak.

How much “better” did Dr J play in the playoffs? The guy was putting up 35-13-5-2-2 on a FG% of 53.3%. Ridiculous.
Dr MJ made this post on the #7 thread RE: Dr J:
It was me talking about Erving, and I'll confirm: There's no good reason at all to rate the NBA as clearly ahead of the ABA right before the merger. 5 years earlier sure, but the reason the merger happen had everything to do with the fact that the ABA kept gaining and gaining. By the end the ABA was winning more of the cross-league games than the NBA, and as I mentioned even the NBA's battlecry of "we played both sides of the ball" looks silly when you see how the ABA teams did when they came over and played with NBA rules.

Re: Declining numbers when he switched over. There were injuries yes, and there was a general decline that seems to me to come from a player whose game peaked more closely with his athleticism than your average all-timer - which says something about how special his athleticism was, and also says something about his BBIQ being good but not genius

The big thing though is simply that he was put onto another team with the worst fit imaginable. Philly's star George McGinnis was the knock off version of Erving: Both guys did it all, and both were used to their entire team being built around them in a unipolar manner. It was kind of like LeBron coming to Miami if you were to imagine Wade as a guy with no intention of sacrificing for build a great team around the new superior talent, except that the gap between LeBron & Wade as first option was smaller than the gap between Erving & McGinnis.

So Erving goes there and does what's asked of him, which is quite a bit less than he's used to because the team is essentially alternating between he and McGinnis. Over time, as the 76ers realized this just wasn't good enough, McGinnis got phased down and then traded, and so by the time we get to the '80s Erving's basically doing what you can expect him to do in that time period - which is very impressive, but it's not what he looked like in his peak.

If the New York Nets had been able to come over to the NBA intact, there's every reason to believe that the progression of Erving's stats from '76 to '80 would have been much more of a straight line, and he'd have been been doing his thing leading what would have been a strong contender without anyone seeing his teammates as particularly strong. Good chance that if this happened, Erving's something of a GOAT candidate.

Nor did Dr J fade off in the way some assert:
colts18 wrote:For those saying that Dr. J declined in the NBA.

Per 100 possession numbers:
74-76 (ABA): 32-13-6, 5.1 stl/blk
77-79 (NBA): 28-10-5, 4.0 stl/blk
80-82 (NBA): 34-10-6. 5.2 stl/blk

His rebounding numbers dropped off which can be explained by the ABA being a smaller league, but Dr. J's numbers from 80-82 are very comparable to his 74-76 ABA peak. Even his steals and blocks, an indicator of athleticism, went up in the NBA despite the fact that he was age 29-31 in that span compared to 23-25 from 74-76.

So Dr J actually has the highest peak left, and great longevity, the guy was still an MVP candidate into the early 80’s, and didn’t drop off the map right after that either. And of course he was putting up 32-12-4-3-2 on 50% shooting back in 1973 at age 22. Dr J was simply a more talented individual than Kobe- he was bigger, stronger, and more athletic. He had huge hands that let him palm the ball to do ridiculous stuff, which combined with his awesome body control made him near unstoppable going to the basket. He was a fantastic defender as well, with natural talents like size, strength and length that Kobe simply lacked (not to mention effort). Check out this video showcasing some of Erving’s ridiculous body control and athleticism, all of which he makes look effortless:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DebtVv87jDc[/youtube]

Does the ABA “Count”?

Spoiler:

In addition to the usual arguments about exhibitions games and players who switched in and out of the ABA, let's look at the most compelling argument; the 2 teams whose rosters changed the least from ABA to NBA. The first is one I know well, my own Spurs.

In the 3 years prior to the merger the Spurs had a win% of 53.6%, 60.7% and 59.5%. In the first 3 years in the NBA the Spurs had a win% of 53.7%, 63.4% and 58.5%. They actually did better in the NBA. Some people criticise their SRS dropping in 1977, but that's easily explainable; James Silas, an all-aba 1st teamer in 1976, suffered a catastrophic injury (from which he never fully recovered) and played only 22 games in 1977. He barely played in 78 either. Despite that, the Spurs SRS kicked it back up to ABA levels in 1978, and by 1979 (when Silas returned at a reduced capacity) they recorded a higher SRS than they had ever recorded in their history and tragically lost in the conference finals (if they'd won, they were the likely champs that year). So with a healthy Silas the Spurs wouldn't have just been breaking even with their ABA results leading into the merger, they'd have been significantly outperforming them.

Then look at the Nuggets. Despite losing some players they were still an awesome NBA team. Not quite as good as they'd been in the ABA, that was a combination of a number of factors (and not every team is going to transition as smoothly as the Spurs), but they were still an awesome team. Just like the Spurs, critics mention that the Nuggets SRS dropped in 1977, and it did drop marginally, but what they don't seem to know is that the Nuggets actually had the 2nd highest SRS in a 22 team NBA in 1977. The team with the best SRS? The one who beat them, and who won the championship that year. Lots of ABA players showed much the same thing on an individual level. Sure, Dr J's stats went down on arriving to the NBA, but that was a combination of both his injuries and the team he was on. There were three 30 pt scorers and one 20 point scorer. That wasn't going to work, so the coach said they'd all have to take less shots to make it work, and it almost did, the 76ers were consistently ripping it up despite the presence of way too many gunners, on their talent alone.

In some ways the ABA was a tougher league. There were plenty of weak teams in the NBA by 1976, but in the ABA in 1976 there was exactly one weak team (the Squires). The other 5/6ths of the time you played either one of 3 teams who’d have been NBA contenders, or 2 other teams that would have made the NBA playoffs that year probably. The two titles Dr J carried his team to, especially in 1976, were won in an league that was as strong as the NBA.

ThaRegul8r · Post #13 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:53 am

Why is Karl Malone vs. Kobe or Dr. J vs. Kobe relevant when Kobe's already in? You can't convince voters to recall the last spot, so continuing to focus on it is pointless. Simply cut the irrelevant portions to make it pertinent to the current discussion.

Post #14 » by **Texas Chuck** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 12:53 am

DannyNoonan1221 wrote:My vote is for Moses Malone.

- My caveat about offensive rebounds: Basketball (and sports in general) is a game of momentum swings. back and forth, back and forth. Winning a game often comes down to controlling another team’s run and being able to stop their momentum while creating your own. Outside of a few different things (highlight-reel scoring plays/dunks), I don’t think there is one single play that can be recorded in a box score that has a bigger impact on momentum than offensive rebounding. I have brought this up before- not only are you giving your team another 24 seconds (most of the time), but you are chipping away at the will of the defensive team.

2014 Spurs 26th in O-Rebounds
2013 Heat 28th
2012 Heat 24th
2011 Mavs 28th

It's really not important at all in terms of winning games. It's much more valuable for your bigs to get back on defense where they can have a pronounced impact on the game rather than the relatively low percentage play of chasing offensive rebounds.

You are actually making a great case for Dirk here in place of Moses because Dirk was a terrific defensive rebounder which is more valuable and he always got back on defense which is a large part of a guy who to the eye test isn't as impressively defensively as some other guys always rates well in +/- and RAPM.

JordansBulls · Post #15 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 1:20 am

Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #16 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 1:37 am

Kobe got voted in? I quit.

Vote : Jerry West

RayBan-Sematra wrote:West's Career
Regular-season = 27ppg
Post-season = 29.1ppg
NBA Finals = 30.5ppg

The Playoff Performer
2 year Peak : (25.1 PER) --- 31 / 5 / 7apg on 57%TS -- .277 WSP48
5 year Peak : (25.3 PER) --- 33 / 5 / 6apg on 56%TS --- .247 WSP48
11 year Prime : (23.1 PER) - 29 / 6 / 6.4apg on 54%TS --- .204 WSP48

Highest Scoring Average in NBA Finals (min 10 games)
(10 games) Rick Barry : 36.3ppg
(20 games) Shaq : 34.2ppg (out of date stat)
(35 games) Jordan : 33.6ppg
(55 games) Jerry West : 30.5ppg

West averaged 31ppg in the Finals over his career without the benefit of the 3pt shot.
Jordan made almost 42 treys in his 35 NBA Finals games. West had at least Jordan's range.
It is reasonable to say that West would have approached Jordan's 33ppg in the Finals if he had the 3pt shot.

He scored 53 points in Game 1 of the 1969 Finals and had a 45-point game in both the 1965 Finals and the 1966 Finals.

Chick Hearn called Jerry "Mr. Clutch," and the name was appropriate.

Regarding West defensively.
I am thinking that West was one of the greatest help defenders ever at the guard position.
He had underrated athletic ability combined with ultra long arms and amazing timing.

Even at age 35 while only playing 30mpg he averaged nearly 3spg/1bpg.
He was probably a lock for 3+spg / 1+bpg in his actual Prime.

I think Jerry is clearly the best candidate for this spot.
He was a better scorer and playmaker then Erving and while I am high on Erving's defensive ability West was no pushover on that end.

I was voting for him since the 11 spot and I am probably not gonna stop now.

Not gonna vote for Malone because I feel his Prime and Peak were inferior.
I was going to vote for Kobe over Malone.

Robinson was an amazing player but he was lacking on the offensive end and his longevity was pretty mediocre.
He only gives you 7 truly elite years to go with 4 very solid years where he was still having All-Star impact.

Dirk is a reasonable candidate but I think West was more dynamic and explosive.

This spot should be given to West, Erving or Dirk.
I am going with West.

Post #17 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 1:38 am

JordansBulls wrote:Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

In what way is Wade better than West?

Basketballefan · Post #18 » by **Basketballefan** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 1:50 am

penbeast0 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

In what way is Wade better than West?

Well i think Peak wise Wade gets the edge, i would say West had the better career though. More quality seasons.

ThaRegul8r · Post #19 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 1:52 am

penbeast0 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

In what way is Wade better than West?

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

ShaqAttack3234 · Post #20 » by **ShaqAttack3234** » Sun Aug 3, 2014 2:06 am

I'll put my vote in for Jerry West now.

He's a strong candidate because he had legit first option scoring ability, but he was by all accounts a two-way player with the all around game, he could raise his game in the playoffs, and there's no doubt his game could be featured in a big role on championship and contending teams. Even though his play in the '72 playoffs was weak when he finally won the title, he had a great year helping the Lakers to a then-record 69 wins, which is still tied for the 2nd most in NBA history, a 33 game winning streak, which also remains the most in NBA history, and despite that weak playoff run, there's no doubt, West did everything he could to win a title in '69, which was a great run and finals where he came as close as possible to winning a title, and would have if Wilt and Baylor had played closer to the level you expect from them. Not to mention, all of the other close calls with titles such as way back in '62, or more importantly, 1970, when West was arguably at his peak.