RealGM Top 100 List #27

[penbeast0]

CENTERS
Artis Gilmore or Dwight Howard are the next greatest 2 way centers but Artis seemed to lose his competitive fire when he came to the NBA and Dwight has not been the same dominant player since Orlando. Alonzo Mourning and Mel Daniels are the other 2 candidates that came to mind, very similar players in many ways; plus probably Dikembe Mutombo is a candidate as the most impactful defender left (and not a complete disaster offensively). The numbers clearly say Artis, but I'm just not as high on him as I used to be.

FORWARDS
Baylor, McHale, Pippen, Havlicek, Rodman, and even Kevin Durant. Interested to see who starts getting support. Baylor seemed to have efficiency issues even for his day, McHale is super efficient but worked against single teams in the post more than any great post scorer in history and was a mediocre defensive rebounder (though the presence of Larry Bird that gave him so many single teams also stole some rebounds from him). Pippen does everything well, but has some issues with clutch situations and mental fragility. Havlicek seems to have nerves (and lungs) of steel but was even more inefficient through the mid 70s than Baylor. Rodman is the GOAT rebounder, but also a disruptive force and barely above the Ben Wallace level offensively, and Durant's career is just starting. A lot of talent, a lot of questions.

GUARDS
I see Walt Frazier pretty clearly over Payton, Kidd, or Isiah for his scoring efficiency and superior all around game. The main competition for me is Chris Paul who, like Artis, has spectacular numbers but I'm just not sure that his numbers don't overstate his impact.


Based on his finals heroics, the way his teams in NY (of all places) ran like well oiled machines with almost no ego problems, superior durability, and the fact that as a fan, I feared facing him more than I did any of the others, I will cast my vote for:

WALT FRAZIER

[E-Balla]

Missed the last thread by 5 minutes. You betrayed Walt Penbeast.

I'm voting for Clyde Frazier. I was trying to keep an open mind and reevaluate who I had at this spot but Walt is the easy answer for me. His postseason performance along with his ability to takeover games in many ways makes him in a class with few other guards and all those guys are off the board.

[RSCD3_]

I was going to vote Stockton but I too came Into the thread a little too late.

Also out of the number one options on a title contending team left, do any have a case

Barry, Durant, Walton

Possibly Gervin or dantley


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[tsherkin]

We're starting to get into the zone where I'm thinking about voting for McAdoo ahead of some of these SFs, but his playoff performance is bothersome for me. Frazier's longevity becomes less and less an issue for me as we move forward. Strong ball-handler, excellent defender, efficient scorer at his peak, big-time postseason performer. He's probably the most compelling one on the list at the moment IMO.

[trex_8063]

Thank you penbeast0 for posting my vote for #26.

Now that Stockton is voted in, for me the top candidates are primarily from the SF position: Baylor, Pippen, and Havlicek are the guys I'm largely considering, although Jason Kidd is definitely on my radar at this point (though I suspect he's not going to garner major traction for at least a few more places). Will try to catch up on the discussion over the next 24hrs.

[SactoKingsFan]

I'm leaning towards Pippen for his GOAT perimeter defense, overall defensive versatility (could guard 1-4, great help defense) and impressive passing/playmaking. I'm also considering Havlicek and Frazier for this spot.

[SactoKingsFan]

Here's some quotes on Pippen:

“when you played the Bulls, you were praying that, I hope he guards the other guy tonight. Because Pippen was one of those guys that could guard the 1, 2, or 3. And you were hoping, Okay, I hope he guards the other guy. I mean how rare is it that you want Michael Jordan to guard you?”

-Doc Rivers

“If I had a vote in that first championship for the MVP it would have been Scottie….The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game.”

-Horace Grant

“Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively….the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league….He brought out the best in players and communicated the best.”

-Phil Jackson

He sets the tempo defensively for us. He can disrupt anybody’s offense because he can play anybody from a point guard to the five position.”

-Michael Jordan

[Narigo]

Artis Gilmore was getting some talk in the previous thread so I decided to link one of his ABA games against Julius Erving

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJDHsm4djwM&list=PLjL8Bul9ma7vrD5nYn5p7tOMtQVeTCjZw[/youtube]

Enjoy!!

[Basketballefan]

For the Frazier supporters, if Walt was such a "heroic" finals performer why does he have no FMVPS?

I'm not sure he was even the clear cut best player on either of his championships.

[Moonbeam]

I'm sorry that I've missed the last two threads - I've been too busy at work to be able to vote, but I've been high on Walt Frazier for awhile, and his main competition for me has mostly been voted in, so I'd like to post a vote for him now. I'll explore comparisons with some other contenders for this spot (Baylor, Pippen, Havlicek and Gilmore come to mind), but when I last looked into it, Frazier came out clearly ahead for me based on his steady excellence and brilliant playoff play.

[penbeast0]

For the Frazier supporters, if Walt was such a "heroic" finals performer why does he have no FMVPS?

I'm not sure he was even the clear cut best player on either of his championships.

The Frazier v. Reed dynamic in terms of awards has been discussed several times in the last few threads. Basically, the argument comes down to (a) narrative -- Reed limping onto the court with one leg, (b) big man value -- Reed being up against Wilt Chamberlain and holding his own (when not injured), and (c) marketing -- the Knicks and the NBA preferring the image of Willis Reed over that of the black power styling Frazier.

[Moonbeam]

For the Frazier supporters, if Walt was such a "heroic" finals performer why does he have no FMVPS?

I'm not sure he was even the clear cut best player on either of his championships.

I don't put a whole bunch of stock into accolades, but Frazier certainly played great in the playoffs throughout his career. His per game scoring, assist and rebound averages all jumped in the playoffs, and his efficiency also jumped, from .542 TS to .557 TS.

In terms of his impact, I made a post a few threads ago about his SRS impact throughout his career, and the 2 highest impact seasons were the Knicks' 2 championship seasons. Take that with a grain of salt, though, because I didn't control for other players missing games, and the sample sizes are not big (he missed 5 games in 1970 and 4 in 1973). I don't see any reason to doubt that he was a major contributor to those teams.

Advanced stats say that he was at least tied for the most important player in 1970 (edging out Reed in WS and WS/48 in 1970 in both the regular season and playoffs), and quite clearly the most important player in 1973 (nearly doubling the next highest WS total posted by a teammate in both the regular season and playoffs).

It's not just the title teams that are impressive, however. For 6 straight years, the Knicks went to at least the conference finals with Frazier, and over that 6-season stretch, he put up 21.1/7.3/6.4 on .556 TS with .196 WS/48. I know this evidence is almost entirely box-score based, but that's more than enough to convince me he was a big-time player.

The reason why I wasn't absolutely convinced to vote for him from about spot 22 on (though sometimes I did vote for him) was because his career tailed off after 1974, but those 6 years are greatly impressive to me.

[penbeast0]

[quote="SactoKingsFan"]Here's some quotes on Pippen:

Code: Select all

[quote]“when you played the Bulls, you were praying that, I hope he guards the other guy tonight. Because Pippen was one of those guys that could guard the 1, 2, or 3. And you were hoping, Okay, I hope he guards the other guy. I mean how rare is it that you want Michael Jordan to guard you?”

-Doc Rivers
[/quote]

[quote]“If I had a vote in that first championship for the MVP it would have been Scottie….The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game.”

-Horace Grant
[/quote]


[quote]“Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively….the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league….He brought out the best in players and communicated the best.”

-Phil Jackson
[/quote]

[quote]He sets the tempo defensively for us. He can disrupt anybody’s offense because he can play anybody from a point guard to the five position.”

-Michael Jordan
[/quote][/quote]


Some more Michael Jordan quotes on Pippen:

"I covered their (Pippen and Grant) asses when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome 4th quarter deficits all by myself."

On Pippen's year without Jordan: "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great."

On Pippen's quitting on his teammates when Phil Jackson drew up a play for Toni Kukoc to take the last shot (which Kukoc made): "I don't think he'll ever live that down."


I like Pippen and he's on my short list after Frazier but don't be quoting MJ to prop up his teammates, Michael's trashing his teammates is just too fun to quote.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Led the Pistons to back to back titles in an era that was tough as nails. Had to deal with peak Bird and Magic in the process. Also won finals mvp, lost only 1 series in his career with HCA. Took a franchise from the bottom to the top as well in the process.

[Moonbeam]

I was going to vote Stockton but I too came Into the thread a little too late.

Also out of the number one options on a title contending team left, do any have a case

Barry, Durant, Walton

Possibly Gervin or dantley


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I think Durant and Barry are viable candidates here, but I can't see myself going for them yet. Durant's career is too short for me so far, and Barry's inconsistent impact makes me question him at this slot. Walton is a huge wild card - his peak was incredible but his longevity was so painfully short (common issue with my beloved Blazers).

I don't see Gervin or Dantley as serious candidates yet, and I say that as probably Dantley's biggest fan here. Gervin probably should be in the top 40, and I can see myself voting for Dantley in the top 50.

[ceiling raiser]

I'm probably leaning Frazier here, but I'd really like to see two things answered:

1) What was his shooting range?

2) How exactly did he play defense? How would his ability to play D change (if at all) in today's game?

Kidd and Pippen are possibilities as well, and I'm still not sure that bigs should be off the here. Throwing a name out there...when's the earliest you guys are comfortable discussing Manu?

[RebelWithACause]

I would like to learn a bit more about Pippen.

A few questions:

- how many Prime years did Pippen have, when did his prime start and end?

- when did his defense become great and when did it tail off? I am asking this because the RAPM studies from 97-00 show him as a positive defender, but nothing like his reputation.

-when did his offense become really good and for how long?

- does he have a longevity problem?

[RSCD3_]

I'm probably leaning Frazier here, but I'd really like to see two things answered:

1) What was his shooting range?

2) How exactly did he play defense? How would his ability to play D change (if at all) in today's game?

Kidd and Pippen are possibilities as well, and I'm still not sure that bigs should be off the here. Throwing a name out there...when's the earliest you guys are comfortable discussing Manu?

The thing about kidd was his best years as a shooter came after his peak/prime and thus his career skills didnt overlap so well

I dont really see peak kidd as anywhere near peak frazier and I also think his longevity is overrated

I think a lot of credit for the NJ team in 02 and 03 is given to him when it was more of an ensemble cast. I also think these were the two worst eastern teams in the finals since 1979

If were going to talk about above average facilitators who were great defensively and not the greatest faciltators id go for pippen

However I must admit im pretty high on peaks

and kidds lack of scoring while not leading that good of offenses is a red flag for me

Im interested in seeing his really advanced stats because it seems like his numbers either do him no justice with some posters advocating si strongly for him

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[SactoKingsFan]

I would like to learn a bit more about Pippen.

A few questions:

- how many Prime years did Pippen have, when did his prime start and end?

- when did his defense become great and when did it tail off? I am asking this because the RAPM studies from 97-00 show him as a positive defender, but nothing like his reputation.

-when did his offense become really good and for how long?

- does he have a longevity problem?

-Pippen's prime was from 91-97 or 98

-His defense is praised so much because of his arguably GOAT level perimeter D and defensive versatility. Pip was a very good defender by 90, a very good/great defender from 91-98 and a consistently good and occasionally great defender in HOU and POR.

-his offensive game was very good but not great throughout his prime. Tailed off in HOU and POR. More of a role player by then.

-No, don't think he has a longevity issue. Started 1053 games and played 41069 mins during RS.

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[RebelWithACause]

I would like to learn a bit more about Pippen.

A few questions:

- how many Prime years did Pippen have, when did his prime start and end?

- when did his defense become great and when did it tail off? I am asking this because the RAPM studies from 97-00 show him as a positive defender, but nothing like his reputation.

-when did his offense become really good and for how long?

- does he have a longevity problem?

-Pippen's prime was from 91-97 or 98

-Pip was a very good defender by 90, a very good/great defender from 91-98 and a good defender in HOU and POR.

-his offensive game was good but not great throughout his prime. Tailed off in HOU and POR. More of a role player by then.

-No, don't think he has a longevity issue. Started 1053 games and played 41069 mins during RS.

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Thank you for your response.

Defense:
Here is the thing though, you say very good/great up to 98.
Now the problem I have here is that evidence actually distorts that notion.
This, somehow, is similar to Kobe. His defensive reputation exceeded his impact by far.
Plenty of quotes and praises, but the data tells us a different story.
Neutral defender.
Pippen, in general, is heralded as the GOAT perimeter defender.
The data of his late prime (97,98) disagrees heavily.

Longevity:
8 prime years and 2-3 valuable years as a role player.
This is actually really comparable to someone like McGrady who is criticized for the longevity aspect.


So yes I am really unsure what to make of Pippen.