RealGM Top 100 List #53

[penbeast0]

Top PGs left: Kevin Johnson and Chauncey Billups; never been sold on Cousy though I can see him here, same for Archibald and Penny Hardaway, the main short peak guys. Tim Hardaway and Mark Price are a small step down.

Wings: English, Sam Jones, Vince Carter had long outstanding careers. Nique and Iverson are a step down with their efficiency and defensive issues plus Iverson's attitude problems. Sidney Moncrief may be the 3rd greatest 2 guard ever . . . for 4 years, but his injuries limit his career value. Arizin is the dark horse 50s guy but don't see him as better than Sam Jones. Sharman and Greer were considered better than Sam Jones in their peaks but the numbers for Jones look better.

Best vigs left: Elvin Hayes is the Iverson/Nique type with weak efficiency (and poor passing) but with excellent defense and rebounding, and he was an ironman. My favorite is Mel Daniels with his 2 ABA MVPs and 3 rings (2 as clearly the best player) -- played like Alonzo Mourning offensively and Moses defensively. Bill Walton, Connie Hawkins, and Bob McAdoo for short peak guys . . . in that order for me I would guess. McAdoo, Neil Johnston, Amare, Issel, Spencer Haywood have offensive creds but bigs who don't play defense are problematic for me. Ben Wallace, Nate Thurmond, or the Worm also could come up here as well as guys like DeBusschere, Bobby Jones, etc., even Zelmo Beaty and Yao Ming. Lots of names to consider.

Vote: Alex English.

***********************************************************************************************************************************
Alex English was on some great offense/bad defense teams but that was with Dan Issel and Kiki Vandeweghe inside -- possibly the worst pair of defensive bigs to ever play; Kiki was worse than Amare and Issel was nowhere near Marion's ability to compare with Phoenix. And . . . like those Suns, English was the offensive focal point who led them to 5 top 5 offenses in 5 years (2 times best in league). When Issel retired and the Nuggets rebuilt around English and Fat Lever (Wayne Cooper and Danny Schayes were the main centers), they instantly went from bottom 5 in the league to top 10 DEFENSIVELY for 4 of the next 5 years. It was just disguised by the fact that they were still top 3 in the league in pace. During that period English played the role of go to scorer for a full decade but within that, with Kiki and Unseld, English was the primary post option, with Lever and normal bigs, he was the stretch the floor outside shooter, he even was the point forward when they used Mike Evans at 1.

Defensively he was a willing defender for a scorer; better than the likes of Nique, Dantley, King, or Aguirre, though not as good as Marques Johnson or James Worthy among his contemporaries. He guarded 3s and 4s most of the time, rarely 2s, though that was probably more personnel than talent since his best defensive asset was lateral quickness and he was slim and not that strong.

So, to sum up. English was not only the leading scorer of the 80s (over Bird, Nique, Kareem, etc.) on very good efficiency, he showed himself capable of leading a #1 offense for 5 years (as long as some players' peaks), a consistent above average defense for another 5 years and showed the ability to adapt his game to whatever the team's needs were without sacrificing efficiency or scoring volume.

[Joao Saraiva]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

At this point Iverson's accodales will look great against anyone, and so will his stat lines... I hope someone actually gives him the vote he deserves on the runoff since he has lost a ton of them.

[Basketballefan]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

At this point Iverson's accodales will look great against anyone, and so will his stat lines... I hope someone actually gives him the vote he deserves on the runoff since he has lost a ton of them.

I wouldn't be suprised if he falls to the lower end of the top 60. But there are a ton of anti-iverson guys voting so it wont suprise me.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

Prime Iverson ('99-'08) (10 seasons, 673 rs games)
Per 100 possessions: ~35.5 pts, ~4.7 reb, ~7.5 ast, ~2.8 stl, 0.2 blk, ~4.5 tov @ .518 TS% (-0.7% to league avg)
PER 21.9, .139 WS/48, ORtg ~105/DRtg ~103.7 (+1.3) in a monstrous 42.2 mpg
VORP 36.0
OBPM 4.3 + DBPM -1.1 = +3.2 BPM

Throughout his prime in Philly he appeared to have a nearly +4 SRS points affect, on average (comparable to what KJ was doing in his prime in Phoenix; though Iverson's prime lasted longer).
There were five seasons where Iverson led squads that were likely not capable of better than a playoff absentee 30-35 wins (if even that) without him, which he raised to 43-48 wins and five playoff appearances (three of those getting past the first round). Plus one other squad (in '01) that was likely capable of no better than 45 wins (~+0.50 SRS) and a first round exit without Iverson.....and he elevated them to 56 wins, +3.63 SRS, and a finals appearance.

And then in his one full season in a sort of "1B" role (or was he the "1A"??) for a decent team, he had what was, in a sort of cherry-picked way, an historic season: one of likely only three seasons in NBA history of someone averaging >26 ppg, >7apg, <3 tov, @ >56 ts%.

Scoring (which was very good) aside, he was a very good play-maker who really had a very good (excellent, even) turnover rate considering the insane usage% he was shouldering.

And depending on how you much you take to heart from the article fplii posted, his defense may be somewhat defensible, too.

I guess it's too late at this point to change our method, but at this point I'm almost wondering if there should be a provisional rule in place for circumstances like this: He's now got the record, having lost FOUR consecutive run-offs (meaning he earned a run-off sooner than the last three inductees), and having lost TWO of those four by a single vote (if memory serves, he only lost 9-to-8 to Mutombo for the #49 spot; now a 1 vote deficit to Cowens). Oh well. It does feel a little icky, though.

[john248]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

If it makes you feel better, I think I've been voting Pau Gasol for roughly 7 threads now. Then again, Texas Chuck was probably voting or thinking Mutombo for about 10 threads. lol

[Moonbeam]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

I can understand the feeling. I think you've done a great job advocating for Iverson, and it can feel like you're talking only to yourself sometimes when the guy you're supporting fails to break through time and time again, but you're not alone there. I know that Chuck Texas probably felt the same with Havlicek, Kidd, and Mutombo, jaivl probably felt that way with Mutombo, penbeast with Alex English, flpiii probably feels that way with Thurmond (though I wish he'd post more about him!), etc. I ended up voting for Jerry West 6 times before he got in, probably the same number of times for Walt Frazier, and 5 times for Dantley. And you and I were both on the Dolph Schayes train for awhile before he got the nod. Ultimately, though, the multiple votes have led to longer conversations about these players, and I learned a lot in the process.

[penbeast0]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

At this point Iverson's accodales will look great against anyone, and so will his stat lines... I hope someone actually gives him the vote he deserves on the runoff since he has lost a ton of them.

I'd like to see some arguments that show Iverson as having a positive value outside of scoring since I think he's pretty much a negative everywere else except possibly playmaking.

Iverson was a below average defender, had personality conflicts with teammates and coaches, skipped practice frequently, and was often hurt. When it comes to two players who are below average effiency scorers and who are pretty comparable as playmakers, would you prefer the one I just described or the fiery team leader who had great playoffs, was one of the most effective defenders of the greatest player of his day (Kareem), and every one who ever played with described as a fiery and hardworking team leader (Cowens). Scoring and the accolades that come with it are Iverson's only claim to greatness.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

I can understand the feeling. I think you've done a great job advocating for Iverson, and it can feel like you're talking only to yourself sometimes when the guy you're supporting fails to break through time and time again, but you're not alone there. I know that Chuck Texas probably felt the same with Havlicek, Kidd, and Mutombo, jaivl probably felt that way with Mutombo, penbeast with Alex English, flpiii probably feels that way with Thurmond (though I wish he'd post more about him!), etc. I ended up voting for Jerry West 6 times before he got in, probably the same number of times for Walt Frazier, and 5 times for Dantley. And you and I were both on the Dolph Schayes train for awhile before he got the nod. Ultimately, though, the multiple votes have led to longer conversations about these players, and I learned a lot in the process.

It's not so much the number of times I've cast a vote for him, but rather the number of times he's gone to run-off only to lose (which I anticipate will happen again in this thread), sometimes by as little as one vote.
That my vote consistently isn't just a shout in the crowd, but rather one of a chorus brings special emphasis to the repetition.

[Texas Chuck]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

I have no issue with you wanting the Answer discussion to move beyond his efficiency. But realize Cowens didn't get voted in because of his ability as a scorer. So the fact that he wasn't as efficient as some other bigs wasn't as relevant to his candidacy as it is for Iverson. Tho it is part of why he fell as far as he did, so he did get held accountable for it.

[Texas Chuck]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

If it makes you feel better, I think I've been voting Pau Gasol for roughly 7 threads now. Then again, Texas Chuck was probably voting or thinking Mutombo for about 10 threads. lol

I tried to mix in a vote for Cowens every 3 or 4 threads, but yeah I voted for Deke for seemingly forever.

Now that both he and Cowens are in, I have a clean slate because I felt very strongly about both of those guys. Dennis Rodman and Sam Jones are guys in my mind for here, but I'm going to listen to some of the other discussion first to see if some of the other guys with real traction belong prior to those 2.

[Texas Chuck]

was one of the most effective defenders of the greatest player of his day (Kareem),

not to pour cold water on a guy I was championing along for quite a while, but I recall posting 7 or 8 threads ago some of their H2H meetings. Cowens defense on Kareem has gotten overrated over time.

Here' are KAJ's scoring numbers from the beginning against Dave:

44
40
44
53
26
43
55
30
51
45


Now it gets better after that, but Kareem still get his against Cowens.

Also averaged 33 in the 7 postseason games they played.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Alex English

My true contenders for this spot are Nate Thurmond, Alex English, Allen Iverson, and VC.

English is a very good all-around player and might be the most consistently great player left. His 1985 REG SEA and playoffs is one of the underrated peak seasons on this board in my opinion. He could score, pass, rebound, and handle. Took pretty good care of the ball. He led the first 110+ offense in NBA history, too.

Spoiler:

Bigs: Nate Thurmond, Ben Wallace, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo

Worms: Dennis Rodman

Wings: Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Paul Arizin, Alex English, Dominique Wilkins, Penny Hardaway, Manu Ginobili, Sidney Moncrief, Grant Hill

Point Guards: Nate Archibald, Kevin Johnson, Chauncey Billups, Deron Williams, Mark Price

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote: Allen Iverson (my own personal Groundhog's Day)

I can understand the feeling. I think you've done a great job advocating for Iverson, and it can feel like you're talking only to yourself sometimes when the guy you're supporting fails to break through time and time again, but you're not alone there. I know that Chuck Texas probably felt the same with Havlicek, Kidd, and Mutombo, jaivl probably felt that way with Mutombo, penbeast with Alex English, flpiii probably feels that way with Thurmond (though I wish he'd post more about him!), etc. I ended up voting for Jerry West 6 times before he got in, probably the same number of times for Walt Frazier, and 5 times for Dantley. And you and I were both on the Dolph Schayes train for awhile before he got the nod. Ultimately, though, the multiple votes have led to longer conversations about these players, and I learned a lot in the process.

It's not so much the number of times I've cast a vote for him, but rather the number of times he's gone to run-off only to lose (which I anticipate will happen again in this thread), sometimes by as little as one vote.
That my vote consistently isn't just a shout in the crowd, but rather one of a chorus brings special emphasis to the repetition.

Runoffs can be weird. I felt strongly enough to vote for iverson over mutombo at 49 in the runoff, but since then everyone i’ve voted for i’ve felt should be ahead of iverson. We faced a similar up hill battle with schayes, and there have been a handful of others. Just seems to be the nature of this project with certain players as our voter pool isn’t that big at this point. It can be admittedly frustrating, but i’d say most of us remaining are here for the discussion more than anything else.

[RSCD3_]

since Robert parish has gotten in I would like to vote another great #2 who has high impact on offense and defense

VOTE: Pau Gasol

career stats

13.5 complete seasons only had one season with less than 55 games played (12-13)

51.5 FG% with 75.0 FG% and 56.9 TS%

18.2 ppg 9.2rpg 3.3 apg with only 2.3 TOpg, 1.6 BPG

113-105 ORTG / DRTG split

21.5 PER, .168 WS/48

Prime 06-11

53.7 FG% 76.6 FT% 58.9 TS%

19.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 3.6 apg with 2.2 TOpg 1.6 bpg

for some reason theres an error in copying ORTG-DRTG splits os year by year

06 Grizzlies 111-100
07 Grizzlies 115-109
08 Grizzlies 114-111
08 Lakers 128-105
09 Lakers 126-105
10 Lakers 120-102
11 Lakers 123-103

22.8 PER .200 WS/48

[Joao Saraiva]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

At this point Iverson's accodales will look great against anyone, and so will his stat lines... I hope someone actually gives him the vote he deserves on the runoff since he has lost a ton of them.

I'd like to see some arguments that show Iverson as having a positive value outside of scoring since I think he's pretty much a negative everywere else except possibly playmaking.

Iverson was a below average defender, had personality conflicts with teammates and coaches, skipped practice frequently, and was often hurt. When it comes to two players who are below average effiency scorers and who are pretty comparable as playmakers, would you prefer the one I just described or the fiery team leader who had great playoffs, was one of the most effective defenders of the greatest player of his day (Kareem), and every one who ever played with described as a fiery and hardworking team leader (Cowens). Scoring and the accolades that come with it are Iverson's only claim to greatness.

About Allen Iverson's value I think Trex has made some good posts, showing he actually got better upgrades for his team than Dantley for example.

About the being hurt... I can't agree. He played a ton of minutes and he played almost every season above 70 games (in Philadelphia he didn't play above 70 games twice - I'm not counting the 99 season because it was a lockuot year). He was also a guy that played trough injuries a lot of time.

On defense Iverson had some size issues, some bigger guards would abuse him in the post. But he was great defending with a lot of pressure, moved his feet quickly and gambled well a ton of times. I know for some guys it looks like he gambled too much at times, but due to his size disadvantage I think it's not a bad move by Iverson. His effort on D was incredible too.

About his playmaking I think Iverson was certainly above average. His numbers show you that: 5 seasons above 7 APG with casts there were not good on offense.

His attitude was problematic at times, that's for sure. Maybe some other coaches could have driven him the right way. I think at some point he got better with Larry Brown, who was probably the best coach he had for his entire career.

[Joao Saraiva]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

I have no issue with you wanting the Answer discussion to move beyond his efficiency. But realize Cowens didn't get voted in because of his ability as a scorer. So the fact that he wasn't as efficient as some other bigs wasn't as relevant to his candidacy as it is for Iverson. Tho it is part of why he fell as far as he did, so he did get held accountable for it.

I think team results are playing a big part against Iverson too. Maybe if he had the luck of playing on winning teams like Cowens we would have seen Iverson between the 30-40 range. But I guess it's difficult to separate team results from individual performance for a ton of people.

Iverson was a much better volume scorer than Cowens, more efficient, better playmaker. Cowens was a better rebounder but even for his position AI wasn't a bad rebounder, he was an average one. Cowens D is more impressive, but I don't see basketball as 50/50 offense/defense. There was actually a thread about it and most peopel agreed that offense is more valuable.

[Quotatious]

Finally have some time, so I'll try to vote this time.

I'm well known for being really vocal about English, and arguing for him over Wilkins, but honestly, I'm not sure anymore. I think I may underrate Nique a bit, overstating the importance of his low scoring efficiency and playoff struggles. Still lean slightly towards Alex, but now I see these two as extremely close. Vince Carter is another wing who deserves serious consideration, even Melo may be worth looking at.

Among bigs, Lanier, Pau and Hayes are my main candidates. I've almost gone full circle on Hayes (there's something wrong if being an ironman is one of your top 2 arguments, the other being defense), but for example I'd still take him over Cowens (and probably over Reed, too - his longevity is IMO just too great, and it outweighs Reed's superior prime - Cowens, I'm not even sure if he was better than Hayes in their primes, and he's clearly less durable/had less high quality seasons). Nate Thurmond would be the 4th big on my list.

Part of me wants to see Iverson finally being selected (especially considering that Isiah is in since #39, and I really don't see the gap between these two guys as significant - now I'd say they should be ranked about 5 spots removed, even 10 may be a stretch (but it may have something to do with Isiah still being a little overrated).

Kevin Johnson is the #1 guy for me in terms of prime, I mean at least 3 seasons or so, and decent longevity, so he may be my vote here, but I'm still not sure (Walton is obviously #1 as far as peaks), with Sidney Moncrief having the best 5-year stretch remaining (but unfortunately he didn't have any other meeaningful contributions, other than that great 5-year stretch).

I don't know what to do with Dennis Rodman, but I feel like he should already be getting traction. Really special and unique player, but at the same time, very difficult to compare to others, for that reason.

Arizin and Cousy are certainly interesting (especially considering that Schayes is in since #45).

I'm really glad to see Parish and Mutombo being voted in consecutive threads. Personally, I'd lean towards Parish because of his superior offense, more balanced two way play, and a bit better longevity, but at the same time, Deke was a GOAT level defender.

Leaning towards Kevin Johnson, right now.

[trex_8063]

Vote for Allen Iverson.

I'd like to get some arguments that don't include Iverson's ts%, since we got a C with less than 50ts% in the last spot.

At this point Iverson's accodales will look great against anyone, and so will his stat lines... I hope someone actually gives him the vote he deserves on the runoff since he has lost a ton of them.

I'd like to see some arguments that show Iverson as having a positive value outside of scoring since I think he's pretty much a negative everywere else except possibly playmaking.

On this topic.....

I don't know how much is result of his play-making, and how much of it is simply that his presence takes defensive pressure/focus off of his teammates, but I looked at his teammates' shooting efficiency with/without him during his prime Philly years. This is slightly different from what I'd investigated previously, which was the team's TS% with/without (thus the "with" includes Iverson's shooting). Here, I wanted to isolate his teammates only; so Iverson's Pts, FTA, FGA are removed from the picture. Below are the ts% results for Iverson's Philly teammates:

'99
without Iverson: .475
with Iverson: .490 (+1.5%)---Iverson himself shot .508

'00
without Iverson: .469
with Iverson: .509 (+4.0%)

'01
without Iverson: .516
with Iverson: .518 (+0.2%)---Iverson at .518 himself

'02
without Iverson: .491
with Iverson: .514 (+2.3%)

'04
without Iverson: .508
with Iverson: .513 (+0.5%)

'05
without Iverson: .526
with Iverson: .526 (+/- 0%)---Iverson himself is shooting .532 this season

'06
without Iverson: .531
with Iverson: .536 (+0.5%)---Iverson himself shooting .543


So in addition to taking on the heavy volume at what was---while not "good", in a vacuum---in most years better shooting efficiency than his teammates were capable of, his mere presence appears to have consistently elevated the shooting efficiency of his teammates.

And while I'm at it, let's note shooting efficiency isn't the only factor in offensive efficiency, let's look at pts/tov (Iverson vs. his teammates; we'll look at prime years in Philly, and one full prime year in Denver)......because Iverson was actually pretty good at ball-control, especially for the usage:

'99
Iverson: 7.69
rest of team: 4.96

'00
Iverson: 8.65
rest of team: 5.49

'01
Iverson: 9.31
rest of team: 5.27

'02
Iverson: 7.95
rest of team: 5.47

'03
Iverson: 7.91
rest of team: 6.13

'04
Iverson: 6.06
rest of team: 5.42

'05
Iverson: 6.69
rest of team: 6.26

'06
Iverson: 9.58
rest of team: 6.33

'08
Iverson: 8.83
rest of team: 7.21

[Owly]

Vote: Lanier
From the last thread

I'm voting Bob Lanier
Reasoning: looks like the best career added value by crude faux-EWA/WS combination. He's also high on a similar peak based ranking which I ended up posting a few threads back (43rd, and all those above him still available didn't maintain their peak anything close to how he did, and/or have era concerns). Team level D might be held against him but his Drtg (hardly perfect, but I think sufficient for the point/claim being made) in '74 when he played 81 games led the league.

A concern might be that he missed quite a few games, including playing (just) less than 65 games and 2500 minutes for three of his five short prime/extended peak years ('76, '77 and '78 of '74-'78). Still for that 5 year span he looks like the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league (even after minutes are factored in) and he lasted much better than McAdoo.
cf:
The five year span in question http://bkref.com/tiny/64BQL
The 70s: http://bkref.com/tiny/0DbJe

Reviews on D

Lanier is the big difference. He played only when in the mood before last season. He concentrated more on stopping other teams from penetrating and fourth in blocked shots with 247.

[individual bio]
Called "Moses" by his teammates ... For leading them out of the wilderness ...... trimmer last season ...... Defense was his biggest improvement

Depending on who's in there, the Pistons can make you work. When one of the "whos" is either Trapp or Howard Porter, the opponents can relax a bit. But Rowe, Ford, Mengelt, Kevin Porter, Money and Lanier will get down and play some defense. Lanier, in fact often surprises people by jumping out to pick up guards or forwards. He also clogs the middle nicely.
[individual bio]
Has become a very intimidating defensive player who, like Dave Cowens, is not afraid to switch out on unsuspecting forwards and guards.

Somewhat confusing. Lanier is a mammoth figure to try and get around [and some other decent players but the Porters are bad and the bench "woefully weak" ... comunication and fouling called a problem, perhaps coaching semi-implied as a problem based on that?]
[individual bio]
Can rebound, block shots, play defense, do everything but clean the kitchen floor ...... [unrelated but I've touched on this] Injuries have been a problem, though, but he has always played hurt

[Vitale will be looking to emphasize D] Lanier gives him a head start. That is the advantage of having a big center. Lanier seals off the middle and is tough and aggressive.

[individual bio]Devensively he can be as imposing as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Bill Walton or Artis Gilmore

Depending on how much you allow hypotheticals, you might also consider that Detroit rushed him back in his rookie year which may have been detrimental to his long term health.

One quick and dirty study of his impact.

'76 Pistons
team points differential over the year -86 over 82 games, -1.048780488 per game
team points differential over 18 games without Lanier -92 over 18 games, -5.111111111 per game
team points differential over 64 games with Lanier +6 over 64 games, 0.09375 per game

[Owly]

Follow up on Lanier

'77 Pistons
team points differential over the year -85 over 82 games, -1.036585366 per game
team points differential over 18 games without Lanier -107 over 18 games, -5.944444444 per game
team points differential over 64 games with Lanier 22 over 64 games, 0.34375 per game