Re: RealGM Top 100 List #87

[penbeast0]

PG: Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, and maybe Mookie Blaylock are the players I'm looking at . . . should mention Penny Hardaway though he never impressed me as much as he did the TV guys of his day.

Forwards: Marques Johnson and Chris Mullin would be the main scorers; maybe Carmelo Anthony though between his season of discontent in Denver and his playoff numbers, I'd have to be persuaded. Billy Cunningham, Bob Dandridge, Chet Walker, and Mitch Richmond also come to mind.

Bigs: Mel Daniels has 2 MVPs and 3 rings, albeit in a weaker league; similarly Neil Johnston has the best raw numbers in an even weaker league than Daniels. Amare Stoudamire and Jerry Lucas bring great numbers but defensive questions (Johnston is defensively questionable too); Bill Walton has the highest peak (though that's it for true career value -- 1 year then failed to stay healthy to the playoffs the next and 1 year as a reserve role player). Maybe Yao Ming should get a mention too.

There are a lot of other good players but as we are into the last quarter, that's my short list.

Chris Mullin v. Mitch Richmond v. Carmelo Anthony v. Marques Johnson; Mel Daniels v. Neil Johnston v. Yao Ming; Tim Hardaway v. Mark Price v. Mookie Blaylock; Jerry Lucas v. Billy Cunningham; those are the other comps I am looking at and would love feedback on.

By the boxscore numbers I go for Jerry Lucas or Chris Mullin. By the eye test I go for Mel Daniels or Marques Johnson.

VOTE Mel Daniels. Not as impressive statistically as Marques Johnson (or Jerry Lucas) but has a strong defensive impact (more of a Moses Malone/Wes Unseld type as he wasn't a great shotblocker), excellent rebounding, good if not great offense, and came across similarly to Alonzo Mourning when you watched him as just a pure warrior type.

[SactoKingsFan]

My vote is kind of wide open now that Webber's been voted in. Will probably go with Bosh, Richmond, Melo or Kemp.

[trex_8063]

Vote for #87: Chris Bosh.

Statistically Bosh provides a nice combo of boxscore impact…..

Prime (‘06-’13)
Per 100 poss: 30.0 pts, 13.0 reb, 3.2 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.5 blk, 3.1 tov @ 57.8% ts (+4% to league avg)
PER 21.9, .175 WS/48, BPM +1.9, 115 ORtg/106 DRtg (+9) in 36.6 mpg

Career (not counting current season)
Per 100 poss: 28.1 pts, 12.7 reb, 2.9 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.6 blk, 3.0 tov @ 57.3% ts (+3.7% to league avg)
PER 20.6, .161 WS/48, BPM +1.5, 113 ORtg/105 DRtg (+8) in 35.9 mpg
cumulative VORP +24.9


…..and non-boxscore impact. By non-scaled combined RAPM (using PI wherever possible):

His best 3 years added are very similar to Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, and Dwight Howard.

His best 5 years added are again very similar to those of Vince Carter and Dwight Howard, as well as Ben Wallace and Shawn Marion.

His best 7 years added: similar to those of Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, and Tracy McGrady.

His best 10 years added: similar to those of Gary Payton (using colts18`s regressions, we have data going back to `94 for him), Grant Hill, marginally better than that of Andre Iguodala and just marginally worse than that of Dwight Howard.

So no matter how a wide a sample you use, impact data consistently has him alongside some fairly noteworthy company.


He led some pretty poor supporting casts (Anthony Parker, Bargnani, TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, early Jose Calderon) to .500+ records (with 0.61+ SRS) and playoff appearances. Then re-invented himself in a more defensive supportive role as the clear 3rd-best player on a perennial contender. 9 consecutive All-Star appearances (not counting this year).....legitimately all-star caliber in each of those 9 seasons, too (or at worst---in ‘14---just borderline all-star).

[penbeast0]

My vote is kind of wide open now that Webber's been voted in. Will probably go with Bosh, Richmond, Melo or Kemp.

Why Richmond over Mullin?

For that matter, why Kemp over Marques Johnson?

[SactoKingsFan]

My vote is kind of wide open now that Webber's been voted in. Will probably go with Bosh, Richmond, Melo or Kemp.

Why Richmond over Mullin?

For that matter, why Kemp over Marques Johnson?

I think Kemp and Johnson's primes are pretty comparable, but I'd give Kemp the overall career edge due to greater longevity.

When it comes to Richmond v Mullin, there's no doubt that healthy prime Mullin (only 4 seasons) was better than peak/prime Richmond. However, I have Richmond ranked a bit higher since he had a considerably longer prime and was a cut above Mullin as a defender.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #87 - Carmelo Anthony

- 12 year career
- 6x all NBA (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
- 1 top 3 and 1 top 10 MVP finish
- 1x scoring champ

REG SEASON 06-14

26.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 1.1 SPG, .5 BPG, 46.1% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 81.7% FT, 55.4% TS, .149 WS/48, 110 ORTG, 10.9% TO

PLAYOFFS 06-13

27 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.3 SPG, .4 BPG, 42.1% FG, 32.9% 3PT, 82.8% FT, 51.9% TS, .124 WS/48, 107 ORTG, 9.9% TO

Peak carmelo developed into one of the best offensive players in the league. The “iso melo” stigma really became an outdated narrative as you saw all he really needed was a decent PG rotation to keep the ball moving (a little different, but billups certainly got the best out of him in denver). He became one of the better off the ball players in 12-13, actually shooting more efficiently and on higher volume than durant in catch and shoot situations. His transition to a great 3 pt shooter also opened up his game, and he stepped into transition 3s about as well as anyone in the league.

He’s obviously known for his great post up and face up game, but not acknowledged as much for being a great offensive rebounder for his position. He has a deceptively quick 2nd jump and soft touch around the rim for put backs. He also possesses a unique rolling spin move to the hoop i’m not sure anyone else in the league has. The one thing he’s really average at is finishing at the rim, and i’d say that partially has to do with him not being able to take advantage of the way the game is called these days. He isn’t a freak show athlete like lebron, and he doesn’t have those long strides like durant / harden where they know the angles and draw fouls as easily as they do.

And yes, carmelo has lingering knee issues this year, but it’s a lost season, and i’d at least apply some some context to the situation. If he were in a playoff push, maybe this would’ve been dealt with earlier, or he would’ve been playing through it it anyway. I expect him to come back healthy next season.

Carmelo had the full repertoire going with his career high 62 pts against charlotte last season (they ranked 5th in DRTG):

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeYmRC0hFJc[/youtube]

I then look at someone like dominique, who was voted in at #61, and I think a 20+ spot gap between the two is pushing it. Take a look at how they compare over their first 11 seasons (dominique actually comes off as worse if you look at his whole career):

http://bkref.com/tiny/KSWoH

They’re very comparable in most areas, and carmelo actually comes out as the better postseason performer, something wilkins was well criticized for, but still managed to get voted in much earlier.

I think carmelo would’ve fit in about as well as bosh had he come together with lebron and wade in 2010. The only difference would be focusing a little more on signing centers to bolster the interior D (which was lacking anyway in the 2013 + 2014 finals). Again, I don’t see carmelo having an issue with playing more off the ball and spreading the floor at the 4 instead of running the offense through him. He's also shown chemistry specifically with lebron over the years, and their friendship certainly wouldn't hurt, either.

I wouldn’t put that much stock into the all star appearances (something i’ve been consistent with the entire project) as bosh was making them in a weak eastern conference on one of the top / most popular teams. I’d say in that situation he was more expected to make the AS team than anything else.

There always seemed to be this all or nothing evaluation of carmelo where he’d be expected to be as good as lebron / durant (which he obviously isn’t), or he’s barely a top 20 player in the league. You may want to fault him for forcing his way to NY, but let’s not pretend like many players voted in already haven’t done the same.

ronnymac brings up a good point about low turnovers being a plus for high usage players. Below are are 20+ PPG scorers in the playoffs (excluding centers) sorted by TO% (best to worst):

http://bkref.com/tiny/HO11E

Of course there are guys at the “bottom” who were very successful, but the lower TO% can help offset some of the decrease in efficiency we see with carmelo in the playoffs. 25 of the 34 players on this list have already been voted in, and only 1 of those players (gus williams) has played in more playoff games then carmelo, so I think he has a good case for this spot.

As an aside, I think it’s pretty interesting to see guys like jordan and iverson with such low TO%s in the playoffs. Also would’ve never known ben gordon was a 20 PPG scorer in the playoffs for his career

Then we get to the clutch play. 82games.com looked at shot data from 04-09 in the reg season + 04-08 in the post season. Carmelo was 6th in the league in game winners, but #1 in the league by far in FG% on game winners at 48.1%:

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

By 2011, he already had enough game winners to choose from to create a top 10 for his career:

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0vMD_CTYY[/youtube]

For clutch data from 2000-2012, carmelo was 7th in the league in FG%, and 50% of his FGs were assisted, which is interesting to note for being criticized for holding the ball too long.

http://bit.ly/1wnySdJ

[I’d obviously prefer eFG% or TS% for these figures, but they weren’t available here]

I’m aware that he hasn’t been quite as clutch over the last few seasons, but i attribute some of that to fatigue (he led the league in MPG last season) and the makeup of his teams. He’s still had his fair share of clutch moments since coming to NY, and hit multiple game winners during his first season here. He did give us this gem in 2012, as well:

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9neM8by1SQ[/youtube]

Carmelo gets a decent amount of flack for his playoff resume, and I think it’s a little overstated, so I’d like to provide some context for each season. It also seems to get pushed aside that making the playoffs 10 seasons in a row is no big deal or something, especially when the majority of them came out west. Below is carmelo’s team SRS rank and the opponent’s SRS rank that he lost to in the playoffs.

CARMELO SRS RANK / OPPONENT SRS RANK

04 - 11th / 2nd
05 - 10th / 1st (eventual NBA champion spurs)
06 - 15th / 9th
07 - 9th / 1st (eventual NBA champion spurs)
08 - 11th / 2nd
09 - 8th / 3rd (eventual NBA champion lakers)
10 - 8th / 3rd
11 - 15th / 6th
12 - 11th / 4th (eventual NBA champion heat)
13 - 7th / 9th

Aside from 2013, the team he lost to has always been favored in SRS, with 4 of the 10 series losses coming to the eventual NBA champs. To me, this doesn’t reflect a player who’s come up short when he’s been expected to go farther in the playoffs. You can make the argument that if he was a better player, he may have been favored in more series, but that only goes so far. It’s clear that he hasn’t been as fortunate as some other players as far as who he’s played with. Some more details on his recent playoff loses:

09 - This run to the WCF almost gets glossed over at times. Nuggets were 2 wins away from the finals, losing to the eventual NBA champion lakers, who were just flat out the better team. He had some great performances during that run.

11 - Billups gets hurt in game 1 against boston (out for rest of series), then amare gets hurt in game 2 only playing 17 min. First 2 games are decided by 2 and 3 points respectively. Tony douglas forced to play PG for the rest of the series, basically putting it out of reach.

12 - Disastrous # of injuries. Tyson chandler finishes off a DPOY season, and of course gets the flu as soon as the playoffs start. Lin doesn’t come back for the playoffs, shumpert and douglas only play 1 game a piece, baron davis eventually goes down, and the knicks are only left with 33 yr old mike bibby to run the point, who already had 1 foot in retirement.

13 - First time since carmelo came to the knicks that they really looked like a team who could make a run to the finals. PG play was always an issue prior to this season, and felton came up big in the 1st round against boston. Ball movement flowing with kidd and prigioni as well. Then in the 2nd round against indiana, chandler again doesn’t look himself, which would later be revealed that he had an “undisclosed illness” during the series. I think there’s a good chance they beat the pacers with a healthy chandler, and who knows what happens from there.

Here are the best players carmelo’s played with over the course of his career: andre miller (first few seasons of carmelo's career), kenyon martin (often injured), post 30s iverson, camby (often injured), JR smith, nene (often injured), billups, afflalo, amare (often injured), tyson chandler (often injured), kidd in his last season and an in shape felton. Outside of iverson, that’s a collection of good players, but nothing that screams "consistent second option", or even "consistent first option" if you want to push carmelo down a notch. Fit is clearly important, too, and while iverson and carmelo never had "problems" with each other, it wasn't working. It’s not an accident that carmelo’s best seasons came with billups running the show in 09 and a knicks team in 2013 which focused heavily on keeping the ball moving and quick decision making.

With regards to how carmelo’s career is perceived, I always go back to pierce before garnett and allen came along. Even if we agree that pierce is the better player, he had only been to the conf finals once before that trade, and i’m not sure how his career progresses without those trades being made. Does he stick with it in boston and not make anymore playoff runs? Does he eventually go to another team? I just wonder how carmelo would be looked at had he been fortunate enough to play with teammates of that caliber.

I also have one comment on the generalization that carmelo came back to NY "solely for the money and his brand". I don't think it's out of the question to venture that his wife and son (who's grown up up in NY) played a big role in his decision. It could very well be their wanting to stay in NY superseded his being tempted to play in houston / chicago. I had already prepared for him to leave this past summer, and was surprised he came back. I know stuff like this hasn't come up much in the project, but I felt the need to say it due to some of the stigma he's gotten.

I don’t think you can fall on the criticism of him not being able to fit with better players. International play doesn’t equal the NBA, but he’s always shined in that role. If he really had a problem with making that adjustment, he wouldn’t have been a key player on the last 2 olympic teams. And yes, few players get to play with say lebron or chris paul, but there’s little doubt in my mind that carmelo would thrive in a situation like that.

[Quotatious]

Vote: Chris Bosh

He's a player without any glaring weaknesses, at least average in every area of the game, generally underrated defensively, very good scorer (averaged at least 22.3 ppg, shooting at least 56.9% TS, for 5 consecutive seasons in Toronto, between 2006 and 2010, and 22.8 ppg on 58.2% TS for these five seasons combined), really good shooter for a bigman (80% FT for his career), 55th all-time on career PER list (not that PER alone should decide who the best players are, but we're voting for the 87th best player right now, so it may be a sign that Bosh deserves to be a bit higher), also, 71st in career WS/48, 72nd in TS% (some guys ranked ahead of him in TS% never had as big offensive responsibilities as Bosh), decent playoff performer, willing to sacrifice his own numbers to help his team win.

Consistently good ratings in RAPM (19th in 2007, 9th in 2008, 12th in 2009, 9th in 2010, 14th in 2011, in prior informed, 21st in 2012 NPI, and 32nd on the 97-14 spreadsheet - would be even higher, if you eliminated some of the role players, or guys with a small sample size, that are ranked ahead of him), so he definitely wasn't a "nice stats on a bad team" or "empty stats" kind of guy. He was clearly helping to win games.

Already nice longevity (10 All-Star nods - I think he didn't deserve all of those, but still definitely deserved at least 5 or 6), and over 33000 career minutes, RS and playoffs combined.

Nice to see another Bosh voter - trex. I considered voting for Hagan or Sharman here, because of the lack of support for Bosh, but now with Webber already in, it seems like he has a chance (well, IMO Bosh should be in ahead of Webber, but whatever )

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Penny Hardaway

Aside from maybe Bill Walton, Penny has the best peak left. He's got much more longevity than Walton, however.

Penny's longevity isn't too bad when you consider he was pretty damn good in 1999 and 2000, even if he wasn't at 1995-1997 levels. He's got some role player seasons after that as well as a decent rookie season.

[penbeast0]

My vote is kind of wide open now that Webber's been voted in. Will probably go with Bosh, Richmond, Melo or Kemp.

Why Richmond over Mullin?

For that matter, why Kemp over Marques Johnson?

I think Kemp and Johnson's primes are pretty comparable, but I'd give Kemp the overall career edge due to greater longevity.

When it comes to Richmond v Mullin, there's no doubt that healthy prime Mullin (only 4 seasons) was better than peak/prime Richmond. However, I have Richmond ranked a bit higher since he had a considerably longer prime and was a cut above Mullin as a defender.

Good responses, thanks. I favor Marques Johnson over Kemp because of maturity and fitting in with team issues since I agree their primes are reasonably comparable statistically. I also think Johnson was considerable more versatile, able to play inside or out, while Kemp was pretty much a one trick pony but that may just be positional bias since more SFs are appreciably more versatile than most PFs, at least in 20th century offenses.

As for Mullin v. Richmond, I'm not sure I see Richmond with a clear durability edge, Mullin actually played more games though I agree Richmond's prime was longer and he played more minutes. Statistically, their DRtg's are identical but my eye test agrees with yours, that Richmond was at least solid while Mullin was below average. The big argument for Mullin is that he was considerably above average in terms of efficiency; Richmond was pretty average. Mullin also played a lot more playoff minutes too (enough to roughly even out the career minutes differential) though you can't blame Richmond for Sacramento's suckitude during his tenure. Tougher call for me than Marques v. Kemp but I tend to think if you have one outstanding skill, like Mullin's shooting, you can build that into your offense and work around his weakness more easily than you can build a great offense around a player that is good at everything but not outstanding at anything.

[SactoKingsFan]

The big argument for Mullin is that he was considerably above average in terms of efficiency; Richmond was pretty average. Mullin also played a lot more playoff minutes too (enough to roughly even out the career minutes differential) though you can't blame Richmond for Sacramento's suckitude during his tenure. Tougher call for me than Marques v. Kemp but I tend to think if you have one outstanding skill, like Mullin's shooting, you can build that into your offense and work around his weakness more easily than you can build a great offense around a player that is good at everything but not outstanding at anything.

Mullin was more efficient than Richmond and one of the most efficient non bigs in the league, however I wouldn't call Richmond's offensive efficiency pretty average. His TS% was above league average during all of his prime seasons, and his prime TS% (56.4) and 3PT % (40.1) were well above league average. Richmond wasn't nearly as efficient in WAS, but he was clearly past his prime at that point.

[Sasaki]

Vote: Penny Hardaway

Aside from maybe Bill Walton, Penny has the best peak left. He's got much more longevity than Walton, however.

Penny's longevity isn't too bad when you consider he was pretty damn good in 1999 and 2000, even if he wasn't at 1995-1997 levels. He's got some role player seasons after that as well as a decent rookie season.

Hardaway averaged 16.4 ppg with a PER below 18 both years. Obviously those are some really basic stats, but that's not really "damn good". You're only looking at three superstar years the way I see it, while Walton has 1.5. That's not much more longevity than Walton, who obviously has the higher peak.

Can't vote, but am going to once again pull for either Bosh or Mel Daniels. It seems to me that we already voted Horace Grant in because of his ability to play defense, fit in to the team, and score some points. These are things Bosh knows how to do, and he showed more of an ability to lead a franchise compared to Grant.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Chris Bosh

He's a player without any glaring weaknesses.....

Nice to see another Bosh voter - trex.

Yeah, sorry I didn't pitch in with him earlier. At this point I wonder if the relatively anti-Webber crowd would have been more supportive of Bosh in a run-off; and thus, perhaps would have been possible to get him voted in 2-3 places ago (because I'd have preferred him in before any of Cheeks, Wallace, or Grant). And for me it's a hair's width difference between him and Webber; I just stuck with Webber because he appeared to have the most ancillary support in the initial balloting. I'd like to have seen both Webber and Bosh voted in some time ago (I have both placed in the 73-75 range on my current pre-2014/15 list).

Regarding "without any glaring weaknesses":

I know you were referring to his attributes as a player, but I'm going to run with that statement, because I think his candidacy for this spot is basically without weakness. As I see it, there just isn't a significant hole in arguments for him (not way out here at #87).

Short-hand career narrative
Took a significantly sub-par supporting cast which was likely incapable of winning even 25 games without him, and lifted them to mediocrity (or above). Then re-invented himself to take on a HoGrant/RoParish-esque role as clear 3rd-best on a team that contended for 4 consecutive years.
That seems a career arc that is more than sufficient to be considered here.

Boxscore and Advanced Metrics
Clearly he rates out well enough in this regard (in fact, these would likely lead one to believe he should have been voted in at least 10 -12 places ago).

Impact Data
Again, he clearly rates out quite well enough for serious consideration here (if not earlier).

Accolades and Accomplishments
Not a lot in the way of All-NBA honors (though that's far from a black-mark when voting for #87; and he does have one 2nd team nod), but 9 times an All-Star, twice received MVP votes (as high as #7), and 2-time NBA champion (4 finals appearances). If you happen to base legacy on these kinds of bench-marks, he's clearly got MORE than enough to be a serious candidate here.

Longevity
Although his career is still in progress, even this isn't a strike against him at this point: he had a roughly 8-year prime, 11-year total career (and he had AT LEAST one non-prime year which was of all-star or borderline all-star caliber).

Era
Strength of era cannot be held against him, as obviously he played in one that ranks relatively high/well historically.

Across the board, his resume looks at worst "sufficient", at best "over-qualified" for #87.

[SactoKingsFan]

I'll go ahead and vote for Chris Bosh. He has as strong a case for this spot as any remaining player. As previously mentioned, Bosh already has good longevity, has provided consistently valuable offense throughout his career and was able to adjust his game to facilitate Miami's 4 year run as title contenders.

[SactoKingsFan]

Chris Bosh (3): Quotatious, trex_8063, SactoKingsFan

Mel Daniels (1): penbeast0

Penny Hardaway (1): ronnymac2

Carmelo Anthony (1): Clyde Frazier

Anyone willing to switch their vote to Bosh to avoid a run-off?

[Moonbeam]

I'll throw in my vote for Neil Johnston again. Huge statistical dominance and lots of accolades to back it. Not a great (or deep) playoff resume, and a short career, but everybody's got flaws at this point.

[penbeast0]

Chris Bosh? One of the top 100 players of all time? It just is hard to believe having watched him for years. I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

[trex_8063]

Chris Bosh? One of the top 100 players of all time? It just is hard to believe having watched him for years. I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

I'm frankly a little shocked by the above statements. How can you say (or imply) Bosh doesn't even have a case for top 100? All due respect, but such a statement borders on trolling to me, which I know from your post-history and character was not at all your intent (but that's how bizarre that assertion seems).

Seriously, can you then respond to specific details stated here:

Spoiler:

Statistically Bosh provides a nice combo of boxscore impact…..

Prime (‘06-’13)
Per 100 poss: 30.0 pts, 13.0 reb, 3.2 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.5 blk, 3.1 tov @ 57.8% ts (+4% to league avg)
PER 21.9, .175 WS/48, BPM +1.9, 115 ORtg/106 DRtg (+9) in 36.6 mpg

Career (not counting current season)
Per 100 poss: 28.1 pts, 12.7 reb, 2.9 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.6 blk, 3.0 tov @ 57.3% ts (+3.7% to league avg)
PER 20.6, .161 WS/48, BPM +1.5, 113 ORtg/105 DRtg (+8) in 35.9 mpg
cumulative VORP +24.9


…..and non-boxscore impact. By non-scaled combined RAPM (using PI wherever possible):

His best 3 years added are very similar to Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, and Dwight Howard.

His best 5 years added are again very similar to those of Vince Carter and Dwight Howard, as well as Ben Wallace and Shawn Marion.

His best 7 years added: similar to those of Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, and Tracy McGrady.

His best 10 years added: similar to those of Gary Payton (using colts18`s regressions, we have data going back to `94 for him), Grant Hill, marginally better than that of Andre Iguodala and just marginally worse than that of Dwight Howard.

So no matter how a wide a sample you use, impact data consistently has him alongside some fairly noteworthy company.


He led some pretty poor supporting casts (Anthony Parker, Bargnani, TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, early Jose Calderon) to .500+ records (with 0.61+ SRS) and playoff appearances. Then re-invented himself in a more defensive supportive role as the clear 3rd-best player on a perennial contender. 9 consecutive All-Star appearances (not counting this year).....legitimately all-star caliber in each of those 9 seasons, too (or at worst---in ‘14---just borderline all-star).

....and here:

Spoiler:

Regarding "without any glaring weaknesses":

I know you were referring to his attributes as a player, but I'm going to run with that statement, because I think his candidacy for this spot is basically without weakness. As I see it, there just isn't a significant hole in arguments for him (not way out here at #87).

Short-hand career narrative
Took a significantly sub-par supporting cast which was likely incapable of winning even 25 games without him, and lifted them to mediocrity (or above). Then re-invented himself to take on a HoGrant/RoParish-esque role as clear 3rd-best on a team that contended for 4 consecutive years.
That seems a career arc that is more than sufficient to be considered here.

Boxscore and Advanced Metrics
Clearly he rates out well enough in this regard (in fact, these would likely lead one to believe he should have been voted in at least 10 -12 places ago).

Impact Data
Again, he clearly rates out quite well enough for serious consideration here (if not earlier).

Accolades and Accomplishments
Not a lot in the way of All-NBA honors (though that's far from a black-mark when voting for #87; and he does have one 2nd team nod), but 9 times an All-Star, twice received MVP votes (as high as #7), and 2-time NBA champion (4 finals appearances). If you happen to base legacy on these kinds of bench-marks, he's clearly got MORE than enough to be a serious candidate here.

Longevity
Although his career is still in progress, even this isn't a strike against him at this point: he had a roughly 8-year prime, 11-year total career (and he had AT LEAST one non-prime year which was of all-star or borderline all-star caliber).

Era
Strength of era cannot be held against him, as obviously he played in one that ranks relatively high/well historically.

Across the board, his resume looks at worst "sufficient", at best "over-qualified" for #87.

You can look at simple box stats, advanced boxscore-based data, or NON-boxscore impact data.....and in all ways the objective measures we have all rate him similarly to---if not above---basically anybody left on the table.

He doesn't carry lack of a narrative, lack of accolade or accomplishment, weak era, poor longevity, or other negative stigma to bring him down either.
This is seriously an instance where if asked "which factors are suggestive that Bosh is a top 100 player?", I'd be like, "Um......all of them."

Again, I'm not intending to be disrespectful here, but I gotta suggest you are basing too much on the eye-test, and that in this particular instance your eye-test is failing you to some degree.

[Quotatious]

I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

Lucas and especially Richmond were nowhere near "dominant".

I think the image of Bosh as a distant third option on the Heat is skewing your perception a bit. In Toronto, he was the only reason they weren't an absolutely horrible team (actually led them to the playoffs twice, including 3rd seed in 2007, and they finished one win behind Chicago in 2010, finishing 9th, barely missing the playoffs). He was a borderline top 10 player for about 4 or 5 seasons (probably would make my top 10 two or three times).

As soon as Bosh left Toronto, they became a lottery team (40 wins in 2010, 22 wins in 2011, SRS down from -1.83 to -6.28). RAPM also indicates that his impact was pretty solid.

I think the word "dominant" gets thrown around too loosely. The only player who was "dominant", among those you mentioned, is Yao, because of his size and scoring ability. The others were very good, but "dominant" IMO should only apply to top 3 or top 5 players in the league, real generational talents, game changers. None of these guys was that good.

[penbeast0]

I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

Lucas and especially Richmond were nowhere near "dominant".

I think the image of Bosh as a distant third option on the Heat is skewing your perception a bit. In Toronto, he was the only reason they weren't an absolutely horrible team (actually led them to the playoffs twice, including 3rd seed in 2007, and they finished one win behind Chicago in 2010, finishing 9th, barely missing the playoffs). He was a borderline top 10 player for about 4 or 5 seasons (probably would make my top 10 two or three times).

As soon as Bosh left Toronto, they became a lottery team (40 wins in 2010, 22 wins in 2011, SRS down from -1.83 to -6.28). RAPM also indicates that his impact was pretty solid.

I think the word "dominant" gets thrown around too loosely. The only player who was "dominant", among those you mentioned, is Yao, because of his size and scoring ability. The others were very good, but "dominant" IMO should only apply to top 3 or top 5 players in the league, real generational talents, game changers. None of these guys was that good.

Mel Daniels was certainly top 3 in his league for much of his career, Neil Johnston maybe, Marques Johnson was considered by SI in their 1979 article on him to be the 3rd best player in the league (though he got zero MVP votes so that might be hyperbole), Cunningham also won an ABA MVP though never in the NBA, though none of the league were as strong as today's . . . Mullin and Richmond, I agree they were never that high though neither was Bosh. Lucas is a polarizing player, outstanding rebounding and efficiency as an early stretch 4 but didn't have a positive impact on his team's D that I can tell, sort of a rich man's Ryan Anderson.

I do rate Bosh over most of the other players currently being discussed.

[trex_8063]

Chris Bosh? One of the top 100 players of all time? It just is hard to believe having watched him for years. I could vote for Mullin, or Richmond, or Lucas, or Cunningham, or Yao, or Marques Johnson instead of Daniels . . . but outside of that I can't see it before a runoff and some of them I would have to look into to be sure. Bosh isn't at that level of dominance in any respect.

Sorry to ride these comments, but I wanted to do a bit of statistical comparison to the guys mentioned above:

Per 100 Possessions: Peak season (pts + reb +ast)
Yao Ming 57.0
Chris Bosh 49.4
Billy Cunningham 48.6 (in ABA; 44.4 his best in NBA)
Mel Daniels 47.3 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 46.4
Marques Johnson 45.3
Chris Mullin 44.5
Jerry Lucas 41.9

Peak PER
Yao Ming 26.5
Chris Bosh 25.0
Billy Cunningham 24.7 (in ABA; 21.3 is his best in the NBA)
Marques Johnson 23.9
Chris Mullin 22.7
Mel Daniels 22.4 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond 21.6
Jerry Lucas 20.9

Prime PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 21.9
Mel Daniels 21.1 (ABA)
Chris Mullin 20.9
Billy Cunningham 20.5 (2 years in ABA)
Marques Johnson 20.2
Jerry Lucas 19.3
Mitch Richmond 18.1

Career PER
Yao Ming 23.0
Chris Bosh 20.6
Marques Johnson 20.1
Mel Daniels 20.1 (ABA)
Billy Cunningham 20.0 (19.4 in the NBA)
Jerry Lucas 18.9
Chris Mullin 18.8
Mitch Richmond 17.6

Peak WS/48
Yao Ming .220
Marques Johnson .211 (twice)
Chris Bosh .200
Jerry Lucas .188
Billy Cunningham .176 (in ABA; .156 his best in the NBA)
Chris Mullin .174
Mel Daniels .173 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .166

Prime WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Chris Bosh .175
Marques Johnson .164
Chris Mullin .156
Mel Daniels .151 (ABA)
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .144 (2 years in ABA)
Mitch Richmond .117

Career WS/48
Yao Ming .200
Marques Johnson .162
Chris Bosh .159
Jerry Lucas .147
Billy Cunningham .141 (2 years in ABA)
Chris Mullin .139
Mel Daniels .139 (ABA)
Mitch Richmond .111

The above (at least career/prime numbers) should be weighted against longevity/durability; the rankings in longevity/durability would likely go like this:
Mitch Richmond
Jerry Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Chris Bosh
Chris Mullin (decent length career, but fairly short prime)
Marques Johnson
Mel Daniels
Yao Ming


To hypothesize about non-boxscore impact, we really only have significant data for Bosh and Yao (Richmond to a lesser degree: '94 and on if include colts18's data).
Best 3 years
Chris Bosh +13.30
Yao Ming +9.59
Mitch Richmond +9.0

Best 5 years
Chris Bosh +19.93
Yao Ming +13.53
Mitch Richmond +13.39

Best 7 years
Chris Bosh +23.92
Mitch Richmond +15.5
Yao Ming +12.83

Again, the players Bosh rates out similarly to in impact data include Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Ben Wallace, and Gary Payton ('94 and on).
I can go on, but you get the gist. Literally everything we have to go on rates Bosh actually quite well vs this crowd, even before we factor in strength of league/era.