Is Demarcus Cousins a top 10 Player?

[mdonnelly1989]

I feel like Cousins is certainly a LOCK top 10 player in the league.

27.5 PPG, 10 RB and 27.63 PER:

[eminence]

12 players have really stood out to me so far this season, and he's among them, so I'll go with yes, as I could see him placed anywhere from 8th to 12th or so, so far for this season.

[mischievous]

I haven't looked in depth but i would say no at first pass, simply because there has been an insane start to the season for many players and i can think of like 6-7 right off that are clearly better then there's more that are debatable. So he might be but i'd say probably not so far into the season.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I think he very clearly is. Hard to say why his teams have been so unsuccessful, because some of them should have had the talent to make the playoffs, but he's an outstanding talent. Probably better suited to be in a 1a/1b situation than purely as the man but team success aside, I think he is.

[HeartBreakKid]

A lock? No. guys like jimmy butler and derozan are putting up buckets too and they're not locks for top ten either.


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[penbeast0]

Only way to answer this is to list a top 10; without it, the arguments make no sense.

[Winsome Gerbil]

you know my answer on this

BTW I've been itching to make this point, so this is as good a place as any. The Kings finally got back to the Mike Malone approach and made the right coaching hire for a great center in Dave Joerger. And one of the things he has done has slowed them way down to a great center appropriate pace after all the run n gun dribble drive nonsense of last year with Karl.

Anyway, point is they play at one of the slowest paces in the league. And meanwhile Anthony Davis is on New Orleans with Gentry screaming pace! pace! Cousins also plays a few less minutes than Davis (33.7 to 36.7).

So watch what happens when take a look at those two guys' stats per100 possessions:

Per100
Cousins 41.6pts (.567) 14.9rebs 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.3blk 4.1TO
ADavis 41.4pts (.598) 14.2rebs 2.7ast 2.5stl 3.7blk 3.3TO


And to give you an idea of how epic those numbers are for those guys, I ran a bballref search for all NBA Cs, C/Fs, or F/Cs in NBA history who had EVER had a season averaging 40+pts per 100 possessions. (I restricted it to 500min+ on the season). Result:

1) 16-17 Cousins 41.6
2) 16-17 Davis 41.4
3) 97-98 Shaq 40.1
4) 94-95 Shaq 40.0

that's it. The two current guys are on pace to put up the two most prolific scoring seasons by big men in NBA history. Well...NBA history since per 100s became available n the early 70s. I'm sure Wilt would pop up with a few if we had the numbers.

for further comparison:

Per100
93-94 Admiral 39.2pts (.577TS%) 14.1reb 6.3ast 2.3stl 4.4blk 4.2TO (MVP year)
89-90 Mailman 40.6pts (.626TS%) 14.6reb 3.6ast 1.9stl 0.8blk 4.9TO (year he averaged 31-11)
97-98 O'Neal 40.1pts (.587TS%) 16.1reb 3.3ast 0.9stl 3.4blk 4.1TO

[SlowPaced]

I'm not sure, to be honest. I had him at #12 at the end of last season. He's somewhere between 10 and 12. Could be 10.

[Colbinii]

you know my answer on this

BTW I've been itching to make this point, so this is as good a place as any. The Kings finally got back to the Mike Malone approach and made the right coaching hire for a great center in Dave Joerger. And one of the things he has done has slowed them way down to a great center appropriate pace after all the run n gun dribble drive nonsense of last year with Karl.

Anyway, point is they play at one of the slowest paces in the league. And meanwhile Anthony Davis is on New Orleans with Gentry screaming pace! pace! Cousins also plays a few less minutes than Davis (33.7 to 36.7).

So watch what happens when take a look at those two guys' stats per100 possessions:

Per100
Cousins 41.6pts (.567) 14.9rebs 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.3blk 4.1TO
ADavis 41.4pts (.598) 14.2rebs 2.7ast 2.5stl 3.7blk 3.3TO


And to give you an idea of how epic those numbers are for those guys, I ran a bballref search for all NBA Cs, C/Fs, or F/Cs in NBA history who had EVER had a season averaging 40+pts per 100 possessions. (I restricted it to 500min+ on the season). Result:

1) 16-17 Cousins 41.6
2) 16-17 Davis 41.4
3) 97-98 Shaq 40.1
4) 94-95 Shaq 40.0

that's it. The two current guys are on pace to put up the two most prolific scoring seasons by big men in NBA history. Well...NBA history since per 100s became available n the early 70s. I'm sure Wilt would pop up with a few if we had the numbers.

for further comparison:

Per100
93-94 Admiral 39.2pts (.577TS%) 14.1reb 6.3ast 2.3stl 4.4blk 4.2TO (MVP year)
89-90 Mailman 40.6pts (.626TS%) 14.6reb 3.6ast 1.9stl 0.8blk 4.9TO (year he averaged 31-11)
97-98 O'Neal 40.1pts (.587TS%) 16.1reb 3.3ast 0.9stl 3.4blk 4.1TO

Again, you make this argument every time, and it never surprises me. There is a clear difference between a player playing 33 Minutes per game and a player playing 40 MPG and then using per-36 or per-100 numbers to compare them. One of these players is giving you impact for 40 minutes, while the other is giving you impact for 33 minutes.

Basically, if you believe that Cousins is having a similar per-minute impact as D-Rob, Malone, or Shaq, those players are still having 18% more impact over the course of a game than Cousins, and 18% is a LOT.

[thekdog34]

I had him top 10 starting last year

[Winsome Gerbil]

you know my answer on this

BTW I've been itching to make this point, so this is as good a place as any. The Kings finally got back to the Mike Malone approach and made the right coaching hire for a great center in Dave Joerger. And one of the things he has done has slowed them way down to a great center appropriate pace after all the run n gun dribble drive nonsense of last year with Karl.

Anyway, point is they play at one of the slowest paces in the league. And meanwhile Anthony Davis is on New Orleans with Gentry screaming pace! pace! Cousins also plays a few less minutes than Davis (33.7 to 36.7).

So watch what happens when take a look at those two guys' stats per100 possessions:

Per100
Cousins 41.6pts (.567) 14.9rebs 5.1ast 1.6stl 1.3blk 4.1TO
ADavis 41.4pts (.598) 14.2rebs 2.7ast 2.5stl 3.7blk 3.3TO


And to give you an idea of how epic those numbers are for those guys, I ran a bballref search for all NBA Cs, C/Fs, or F/Cs in NBA history who had EVER had a season averaging 40+pts per 100 possessions. (I restricted it to 500min+ on the season). Result:

1) 16-17 Cousins 41.6
2) 16-17 Davis 41.4
3) 97-98 Shaq 40.1
4) 94-95 Shaq 40.0

that's it. The two current guys are on pace to put up the two most prolific scoring seasons by big men in NBA history. Well...NBA history since per 100s became available n the early 70s. I'm sure Wilt would pop up with a few if we had the numbers.

for further comparison:

Per100
93-94 Admiral 39.2pts (.577TS%) 14.1reb 6.3ast 2.3stl 4.4blk 4.2TO (MVP year)
89-90 Mailman 40.6pts (.626TS%) 14.6reb 3.6ast 1.9stl 0.8blk 4.9TO (year he averaged 31-11)
97-98 O'Neal 40.1pts (.587TS%) 16.1reb 3.3ast 0.9stl 3.4blk 4.1TO

Again, you make this argument every time, and it never surprises me. There is a clear difference between a player playing 33 Minutes per game and a player playing 40 MPG and then using per-36 or per-100 numbers to compare them. One of these players is giving you impact for 40 minutes, while the other is giving you impact for 33 minutes.

Basically, if you believe that Cousins is having a similar per-minute impact as D-Rob, Malone, or Shaq, those players are still having 18% more impact over the course of a game than Cousins, and 18% is a LOT.

yes, and Steph Curry shouldn't have won the MVP 2 years ago because he only averaged a very unworthy 23.8pts 7.7ast.


Its a different era. Guys don't play as many minutes. I don't really agree with it, but its the way it is. Today's superstars average:

37.0 Harden
36.7 Davis
36.3 James
34.9 George
34.9 Westbrook
34.1 Durant
34.0 Leonard
33.7 Cousins
32.9 Curry
32.8 Griffin
30.6 Paul

you go back to 93-94 and the top stars were:

41.0 Hakeem
40.6 Mailman
40.5 Admiral
39.8 O'Neal
38.3 Pippen
37.6 Ewing
35.3 Barkley


And its all a distraction anyway, because the fact still remains that NOBODY (no big man), playing ANY number of minutes (beyond de minimis played 1 game scored 5pts in 3min type guys) has ever scored as rapidly as Cousins or Davis. Playing 40min a night. 35min a night, or 25min a night. Never been done.

And it's also a distraction because any argument that well, not QUITE as good as the greatest big man seasons in history, therefore Not Top 10!!! is...not a good one.

[Colbinii]

yes, and Steph Curry shouldn't have won the MVP 2 years ago because he only averaged a very unworthy 23.8pts 7.7ast.

What does this even mean and how is this relative to the discussion? Curry led the league in RPM, 28 PER, 64 TS%, led league in VORP, ect. He was far more impactful than what his box-score suggest (which is your entire argument around Cousins; box-score stats).

Its a different era. Guys don't play as many minutes. I don't really agree with it, but its the way it is. Today's superstars average:

37.0 Harden
36.7 Davis
36.3 James
34.9 George
34.9 Westbrook
34.1 Durant
34.0 Leonard
33.7 Cousins
32.9 Curry
32.8 Griffin
30.6 Paul

you go back to 93-94 and the top stars were:

41.0 Hakeem
40.6 Mailman
40.5 Admiral
39.8 O'Neal
38.3 Pippen
37.6 Ewing
35.3 Barkley

This is true, which is why strict box-score comparisons, even if using per-100 and per-36 have noise to them. However, you are talking about a 7 minute difference for Cousins, far more than the 2-3 minute difference for the other top stars. You are also ignoring the fact that Durant/Leonard/Curry/Griffin/CP3 would be playing more if their teams weren't so dominant. Cousins on the other hand is playing less minutes with no reason other than he can't stay on the court.

And its all a distraction anyway, because the fact still remains that NOBODY (no big man), playing ANY number of minutes (beyond de minimis played 1 game scored 5pts in 3min type guys) has ever scored as rapidly as Cousins or Davis. Playing 40min a night. 35min a night, or 25min a night. Never been done.

This is true, but you have to expect Cousin's rate to drop if he were asked to play more minutes.

And it's also a distraction because any argument that well, not QUITE as good as the greatest big man seasons in history, therefore Not Top 10!!! is...not a good one.

I agree that Cousins is a top 10 player, I just disagree with the way that you present him and the statistics you use to support your claim.

[Ballerhogger]

I think he very clearly is. Hard to say why his teams have been so unsuccessful, because some of them should have had the talent to make the playoffs, but he's an outstanding talent. Probably better suited to be in a 1a/1b situation than purely as the man but team success aside, I think he is.

The kings FO is pretty useless. .

[feyki]

Lebron,Westbrook,Kawhi,Curry,Harden,A.Davis,Durant,CP3 are better . Paul George,Griffin,Lilliard,Butler and Irving could be better . But othey way is possible too . Cousins could be 9th or 10th best player in the league .

[Dupp]

Lebron, Curry, Durant, CP3, Blake, Harden, Goatbrook, Kawhi, AD, Butler are all clearly better than him imo.

PG13 and the Freak might be as well.

Dont think he has any real argument for top ten. He's very close but more like 11-13.

Edit - you may be able to argue butler too but the top 9 are very clear.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I see 8 players as being clearly better at this point: LeBron, Curry, KD, Westbrook, CP3, AD, Kawhi, Harden

Then there are guys like Lillard, Butler, PG13 and Griffin that are on the same playing field. Would probably put Boogie #10 or #11 behind Lillard and maybe Butler.

[2klegend]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

[tsherkin]

Until he proved he is coachable and be a good leader for his teammate and make the playoff, it is hard to put him in the top 10.

Given the health and quality of his rosters, the coaching carousel he's experienced and everything else going on, is this really the direction you want to take a criticism of the player? Tough to say, I'd think, too many contextual factors. Some really, really good players couldn't make the playoffs or even reach .500 in certain seasons.

[RCM88x]

In a vacuum certainly, however thats not the situation we have, so I'm really not sure. Definitely top 15, and really after the top 6/7 every guy from 8 to 20 is probably arguably top 10.

[GrayJM]

He's top ten in talent but bottom ten in character and basketball IQ.