Retro POY '89-90 (Voting Complete)

[Manuel Calavera]

Hey sorry I'm late, I've read most of the thread and I've decided to move Jordan up to #2.

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Malone

[An Unbiased Fan]

No, he really didn't. In fact, you referenced Pippen's improvement in regard as a playmaker, which was a direct result of MJ allowing him to be the facilitator and playing more off the ball.

Wtf? That is complete bs, seriously, Pippen just became a better ball handler, his passing abilities improved, that had nothing to do with Jordan allowed him more. Allowing the 1990 Pippen more in that offense would have meant losing more games.

What do you based this on?

In 1990, Phil brought the Tri to Chicago, and Pippen's assists jumped from 3.5 apg to 5.4 apg. This was by design, Phil is not a fan of ball-dominant systems, and likes ball movement. It's no secret that MJ was hesitant at first with the Tri and his role. In 91', he fully bought into the system, and it clearly paid off. MJ & Pippen's apg basically flipped as Pip became the usual faciliatator.

I don't see how alllowing Pippen more in the offense would have hurt the Bulls, if anything, they would have been a much more complete 7 balanced team.

I most certainly didn't see any difference at all. Watch the 1990's playoff games and those in 1991, there is no difference in the way Jordan played, but you can see that Pippen became better in 1991, that Grant played better in 1991 and so on. The open shots Pippen and Grant missed in that game 7 in 1990 against the Pistons were shots they made in 1991. That is the difference here.

The difference with how the system ran is pretty clear. This isn't about game 7, it's about the whole year. MJ's leadership, and how he played within the system was better from 90' to 91', IMO.

This maturation is was allowed the Tri system to flourish, and for the supporitng cast's play to improve also. Playing within the system is critical. Magic didn't just play within LA's system, he ran it perfectly. MJ didn't start to do this until 91'.

Lol, that is your prove? Seriously, look up the turnover numbers for Pippen and you might realise where difference in those numbers came from. If Pippen wouldn't have thrown so many passes away in 1990, he could have had a similar amount of assists as he had one year later.

It's proof of how Pippen's role shifted within the system. MJ's role was even bigger in 89' before Phil came. I'm not of the beleive that Pippen was useless, it's up to the Star to utlilize the talent aropund him. Phil's goal was obviously to get more ball movement.

Also, you bring up turnovers, BUT, wouldn't you say that had a lot more to do with a brand new system getting put in place, rather than a lack of ability with Pippen. MJ himself had 3 tpg, and it dropped to 2.5 tpg in 91'. Pip had 3.4 tpg in 90' and then it dropped to 2.8 tpg in 91'.

You are making stuff up here, because that is completely not what happened. Jordan even played MORE ball dominant in the 1991 finals than he did in 1990.
The result is perfectly explained by the improvement of the team around Jordan. Heck, even Phil Jackson became better as a coach in terms of adjustments. Give the 1990 Bulls the 1991 Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen and that teams wins the championship.

The Bulls were not ball-dominant in 91', like they were in 90'. MJ taking over a game is fine if it's within the flow of the offense, which it was. There's a big difference between dribble, dribble, dribble, as compared to a star taking advantage of matchups & situations through ball movement, slashing, penetration, and great mid-range play. The 91' Bulls were much better in the Tri, and MJ was much better running it that year.

[Doctor MJ]

'99-00 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan   16   6   0   0   0 202   0.918
2. Magic Johnson     6  16   0   0   0 172   0.782
3. Charles Barkley   0   0  22   0   0 110   0.500
4. Patrick Ewing     0   0   0  17   2  53   0.241
5. Karl Malone       0   0   0   3  10  19   0.086
6. David Robinson    0   0   0   1   7  10   0.045
7. Isiah Thomas      0   0   0   1   1   4   0.019
8. Hakeem Olajuwon   0   0   0   0   2   2   0.009


[JordansBulls]

'99-00 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan   16   6   0   0   0 202   0.918
2. Magic Johnson     6  16   0   0   0 172   0.782
3. Charles Barkley   0   0  22   0   0 110   0.500
4. Patrick Ewing     0   0   0  17   2  53   0.241
5. Karl Malone       0   0   0   3  10  19   0.086
6. David Robinson    0   0   0   1   7  10   0.045
7. Isiah Thomas      0   0   0   1   1   4   0.019
8. Hakeem Olajuwon   0   0   0   0   2   2   0.009


Should be -89-90 results

[An Unbiased Fan]

Sounds like an argument for Nash over Kobe in 2006.

And Nash went on to the WCF while Magic lost in the 2nd round. Let alone that Jordan 1990 blows Bryant in terms of stats away, in both regular season and playoffs (And Jordan went on to ECF, Bryant lost in the 1st round).

06' Nash isn't close to 90' Magic. Apples & Oranges

90' Magic:
22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

06' Nash:
19/11/4 - RS
20/10/4 - PS

[mysticbb]

In 1990, Phil brought the Tri to Chicago, and Pippen's assists jumped from 3.5 apg to 5.4 apg. This was by design, Phil is not a fan of ball-dominant systems, and likes ball movement. It's no secret that MJ was hesitant at first with the Tri and his role. In 91', he fully bought into the system, and it clearly paid off. MJ & Pippen's apg basically flipped as Pip became the usual faciliatator.

Your argumenation would be some sort of legit, if we would talk about a fully developed Pippen, but Pippen wasn't as good as he became later. Watch the games and look how he played and not just look at how his numbers improved.
And Jordan did play less as a facilitator, because Pippen improved, that is all.

Your "bought into the system" is completely off, because he played no different in the 1990 playoffs in comparison to the 1991 playoffs. In fact Jackson made Jordan play a more ball dominant role in the 1991 finals than anything Jordan done in that respective area in 1990.

I don't see how alllowing Pippen more in the offense would have hurt the Bulls, if anything, they would have been a much more complete 7 balanced team.

Seriously, how do you think the offense will look like, if a player has to do more with the ball than he is capable off? Really, Pippen had way more problems with ball handling and passing in 1990 than he had one year later. Look up his turnover numbers (he had 3.4 per game in 1990 and 2.8 per game in 1991), you can clearly see that. Pippen became better in those areas which allowed Jordan to play more off the ball, that it the reason Pippen's assists numbers increased from 1990 to 1991.

And how much of a difference a Jordan led offense made to a Pippen led offense were we able to see in 1994 and 1995.

The difference with how the system ran is pretty clear. This isn't about game 7, it's about the whole year. MJ's leadership, and how he played within the system was better from 90' to 91', IMO.

You can repeat that multiple times, but that doesn't make it right. The system didn't look much different afterall, but the younger players developed, that is the difference between 1990 and 1991. Heck, I really would love to see your argumenation, if Pippen and Grant wouldn't have went 4 of 27 from the field in game 7 in Detroit. Just a normal 50 fg% for both and the Bulls would have advanced to the finals and Jordan would have ended that game with 31 points and 13 or 14 assists. How would you argue then?
It wasn't Jordan's fault that his teammates couldn't make their open shots, shots they were able to make one year later.

And how the hell does that all fit with your point that Magic is the #1 in 1990? That makes no sense seeing that the Lakers lost even one round earlier.

Also, you bring up turnovers, BUT, wouldn't you say that had a lot more to do with a brand new system getting put in place, rather than a lack of ability with Pippen. MJ himself had 3 tpg, and it dropped to 2.5 tpg in 91'. Pip had 3.4 tpg in 90' and then it dropped to 2.8 tpg in 91'.

Jordan's turnovers dropped to a normal level from 1989 to 1990, because he handled the ball less in 1990 than in 1989. The new system was invented in 1989/90, thus it might be an explanation for Jordan, BUT not for Pippen. Pippen actually dropped one year later, because he became better as a ball handler and passer. You can clearly see that in those games. The TPO for sure helped Pippen more than Jordan, because the TPO covers up for Pippen's weaknesses on offense.

The Bulls were not ball-dominant in 91', like they were in 90'. MJ taking over a game is fine if it's within the flow of the offense, which it was. There's a big difference between dribble, dribble, dribble, as compared to a star taking advantage of matchups & situations through ball movement, slashing, penetration, and great mid-range play. The 91' Bulls were much better in the Tri, and MJ was much better running it that year.

Jordan didn't dribble the ball much in set plays, in fact he mostly came off screens and took the shot. Jordan was more opportunistic in fastbreak situations, in which he used the spaces in the opponents defense more often in 1990. But that was also because the games were more close and the Bulls were down more often. One year later that was different, and the Bulls slowed it more down and ran more set plays. Just normal for the better team, control the pace. For someone who isn't really into it that might look like Jordan actually played way different and "hold is teammates back", but in the end the way he played mostly in the 2nd half of games was more defined by the performance of his teammates in the first half than by his actually different level of maturity. He played in the same fashion one year later, if the support couldn't get anything done. It just happened less often. It is pretty simple.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm half an hour late but I had a previous post naming my top 3 and saying I was going to decide between Ewing and Malone. So that would incidate the final results wouldn't influence my vote. But w/e if it's not counted:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Malone

I watched Ewing's Game 5 against Boston. He has some nice passes out of the post to find cutters at the basket and has a part in a lot of the Knicks plays. He also hits a HUGE 3. I didn't watch the 3rd quarter but he scored 13 in that one as well. So I'm voting for Ewing over Malone, though I was leaning towards him anyways

Btw this game has Bird's Tmac moment IMO. Not only is he horrible in the 4th, but he misses a wide open dunk which is followed by a NY 3. You can tell Bird has no mobility at this point. He's still posting up and shooting, but he doesn't have the ability to go to the rim or really move well

[Gongxi]

Sounds like an argument for Nash over Kobe in 2006.

And Nash went on to the WCF while Magic lost in the 2nd round. Let alone that Jordan 1990 blows Bryant in terms of stats away, in both regular season and playoffs (And Jordan went on to ECF, Bryant lost in the 1st round).

06' Nash isn't close to 90' Magic. Apples & Oranges

90' Magic:
22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

06' Nash:
19/11/4 - RS
20/10/4 - PS

...And the other two players involved in this aren't close, either. I'm fairly confident they're saying '06 was a scaled-down version of '90 (or vice versa), in this regard.

[mysticbb]

06' Nash isn't close to 90' Magic. Apples & Oranges

I would argue that Nash 2006 was closer to Magic 1990 than Bryant 2006 was to Jordan 1990. ;)

I thought you put some emphasize on the playoffs, but seeing that in 2006 you went with the 1st round loser while ignoring the WC finalist and in 1990 you selected the 2nd round loser over the EC finalist, I might be wrong on this.

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy/#season21

As expected, Jordan grabs the #1 spot from Duncan on the all-time shares list, and it's highly unlikely that he'll relinquish that spot (like, ever) as he's got a couple more season where he could take the #1 spot and will be #2 at worst (until we enter the Magic/Bird era, which starts in 87-88). Malone is pretty much done moving up as I don't expect him to crack the top 4 again.

Code: Select all

1. Michael Jordan     6.834
2. Tim Duncan         6.153
3. Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
4. Karl Malone        4.483
5. Kobe Bryant        3.658

[Doctor MJ]

I'm half an hour late but I had a previous post naming my top 3 and saying I was going to decide between Ewing and Malone. So that would incidate the final results wouldn't influence my vote. But w/e if it's not counted:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Malone

I watched Ewing's Game 5 against Boston. He has some nice passes out of the post to find cutters at the basket and has a part in a lot of the Knicks plays. He also hits a HUGE 3. I didn't watch the 3rd quarter but he scored 13 in that one as well. So I'm voting for Ewing over Malone, though I was leaning towards him anyways

Btw this game has Bird's Tmac moment IMO. Not only is he horrible in the 4th, but he misses a wide open dunk which is followed by a NY 3. You can tell Bird has no mobility at this point. He's still posting up and shooting, but he doesn't have the ability to go to the rim or really move well

Ha good, I guessed right.

So it's clear to you and everyone what I decided to do here:

-Dr Mufasa was debating between 4 & 5. If I didn't count his vote, then Malone gets hurt even if he would have chosen against Malone because he averaged less than 1 point per vote. Dr Mufasa seemed to be leaning that way anyway to me, so I figured it was better to guess in that direction than anything else.

Anyone who wants to take issue with my decision is free to. The alternatives were to:

-Not count his vote at all - Which seemed silly because even if I guessed, it would make the overall voting more reflective of Dr Mufasa's opinion than otherwise.

-Consider it like a tie, and pick the first name mentioned - expect that in this case Dr Mufasa really was just sounding out his decision making, so that seemed totally meaningless (whereas when people mention a complete statement with just two names, it's human nature to say first the guy you esteem higher).

So it's clear to everyone, I don't intend to update "final results" with late votes. It's a real pain for me to do this, I give clear deadlines which lately I've been tending to even go beyond, and I give warnings. I'm not angry with ya if you forget to give your final vote in time, but I'm going to make due with what you've given me and whatever seems most fair at the time.

[An Unbiased Fan]

06' Nash isn't close to 90' Magic. Apples & Oranges

I would argue that Nash 2006 was closer to Magic 1990 than Bryant 2006 was to Jordan 1990.

I thought you put some emphasize on the playoffs, but seeing that in 2006 you went with the 1st round loser while ignoring the WC finalist and in 1990 you selected the 2nd round loser over the EC finalist, I might be wrong on this.

Kobe had a historic year(35/5/5), was All-NBA/All-D (1st). 2 40+ ppg months, 62 in 3, 81, and took a #2 seed to 7 games. So I would say he's a lot closer to 90' MJ than Nash who pales in comparison to Magic in everyway.

[Doctor MJ]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy/#season21

As expected, Jordan grabs the #1 spot from Duncan on the all-time shares list, and it's highly unlikely that he'll relinquish that spot (like, ever) as he's got a couple more season where he could take the #1 spot and will be #2 at worst (until we enter the Magic/Bird era, which starts in 87-88). Malone is pretty much done moving up as I don't expect him to crack the top 4 again.

Code: Select all

1. Michael Jordan     6.834
2. Tim Duncan         6.153
3. Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
4. Karl Malone        4.483
5. Kobe Bryant        3.658

Can't wait to see how it all plays out. I can see Kareem giving Jordan a good fight, and conceivably Wilt or Russell if the panel ends up consistently coming down on the same side.

[JordansBulls]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy/#season21

As expected, Jordan grabs the #1 spot from Duncan on the all-time shares list, and it's highly unlikely that he'll relinquish that spot (like, ever) as he's got a couple more season where he could take the #1 spot and will be #2 at worst (until we enter the Magic/Bird era, which starts in 87-88). Malone is pretty much done moving up as I don't expect him to crack the top 4 again.

Code: Select all

1. Michael Jordan     6.834
2. Tim Duncan         6.153
3. Shaquille O'Neal   5.910
4. Karl Malone        4.483
5. Kobe Bryant        3.658

I think Kareem's longevitity will come to play here as well as having the ABA at the same time.

[semi-sentient]

I don't know... Jordan has already won POY 7 times and can very realistically win 2 more. That's going to be very difficult to match. Wilt and Russell will probably be stealing a few from each other, with other players (West, Oscar, Hondo, Cousy) taking away from them a bit.

Kareem is probably the only one that is going to challenge him and will probably dominate the crap out of the 70's, but I think he falls short.

[Dr Positivity]

Russell's my darkhorse to finish on top. Out of 13 years, let's say he gets 7 almost unanimous 1sts and 4 almost unanimous 2nds and then 2 close splits, considering I think he and Wilt will be 1 2 almost every year. That would put him somewhere in the 10s, POY Shares wise. If Michael breaks double digits it will be close

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt will pretty easily make the top 4, I think

[JordansBulls]

Russell's my darkhorse to finish on top. Out of 13 years, let's say he gets 7 almost unanimous 1sts and 4 almost unanimous 2nds and then 2 close splits, considering I think he and Wilt will be 1 2 almost every year. That would put him somewhere in the 10s, POY Shares wise. If Michael breaks double digits it will be close

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt will pretty easily make the top 4, I think

Russell isn't going to get many unanimous. How could he if he hardly had the best numbers and only made the all nba 1st team 3x?

In the end I think it will

MJ/Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan