bastillon wrote:not sure if I'm not on the voting pannel but I got the invitation to join this project so hopefully Doc will count me in.
therealbigthree wrote:Now, you could say that 21.0 pp36 and 55.4% TS is good compared to an average player, but among the best of the best, it counts as "low volume, middling efficiency", but outside of Shaq and Kareem, what big men that are being discussed at this point don't qualify as such? Garnett and Walton are the same way. I know Hakeem was an explosive scorer at times, but from 85-96, Hakeem averaged 23.1 pp36 on 55.8% TS. It looks eerily similar to Duncan's scoring stat line (and Hakeem turned it over more). I know Hakeem had some ridiculous scoring playoff series/games, and I'm not trying to argue that Duncan was on Hakeem's level as a scorer, but Duncan stepped up his volume scoring (and efficiency) in the playoffs plenty of times throughout his career as well.
that doesn't come close to showing the real gap between Duncan and Hakeem. Dream is the only back to the basket big in history who could score really from anywhere inside 17 feet. he could do things Duncan wouldn't dream of. really look at some YouTube clips posted by fatal with peak Hakeem and you'll know what I mean. Duncan just doesn't pass any sort of eye test. you can use numbers whatever you want, but trust me, after watching one or two games with both players, you'll no longer have doubts as to who's the better scorer.
the fact that Hakeem was far superior as a scorer didn't mean that much against weak opposition because they could score on them anyway. but against the very best Hakeem maintained his volume and efficiency. that's what seperates them. Duncan could not stay effective against great defense. Hakeem could somehow raise his effectiveness. if Hakeem wanted to, he could dominate much more in the RS than he did. he just needed motivation. that's why he improved in the playoffs. that's why he performed the best vs the very best.
when I think about Duncan I can't forget about several things.
1) defensively, the defenses he anchored were sometimes getting gangraped in the playoffs. Suns absolutely embarassed those schemes because Duncan struggled guarding pick and rolls. Mavs never seemed to have any trouble scoring either. don't get me started on Kobe who always torched the Spurs the most. I mean were the Spurs really that elite defensively in the playoffs ? who did Duncan stop from scoring ? not only didn't he do that, some players just had their way with Duncan in the playoffs (Amare rings a bell). compare that to Hakeem and his defense vs Parish, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. not to mention that Tomjanovich never had Olajuwon hiding behind Thorpe to stay out of foul trouble. Duncan was never used as a defensive stopper until late in games, he didn't have half of Olajuwon's defensive responsibilities.
2) offensively, I always felt like Duncan was very overrated scorer because of how often he got easy layups from his teammates. I mean post-2003 once Parker and Ginobili developed into very good pick and roll players, Duncan was often scoring tons of open layups. Parker and Ginobili rarely get credit for that, but I think they prolonged Duncan's career a lot. you don't see Duncan scoring from the low post since basically 2008, and he was still posting about 17-20 ppg after that. Hakeem never had that kind of luxury. he had to create everything on that team because there were no playmakers. more importantly, Duncan never performed well vs elite post defenders. Sheed, Karl Malone, Varejao, Grant, they all gave him a lot of trouble. watch some 2005 tape of Duncan struggling to do anything against Sheed 1 on 1, and then look at what Hakeem was doing with NYK's frontline or DPOY David Robinson. just no way, they're comparable post scorers.
Outside of Grant, notice how none of those defensive players went up against 02 or 03 Duncan? And against Grant, Duncan had two great games, and two bad games, and his team got destroyed. Duncan in 02 and 03 was just at his absolute peak in terms of his physical ability and skill level. I have a hard time imagining anybody stopping Duncan one on one in 02 or 03. And Duncan was injured in 04 and 05.
And, the Spurs offense in the 05 Finals were +2.2. I know Ginobili played great, but the Spurs offense was very much Duncan-centered, and their #1 offensive strategy was to feed Duncan in the post and let him create. He went up against a Wallace/Wallace front line and couldn't score efficiently against them, but much like ElGee said before, even if Hakeem didn't score, if he was creating opportunities for others, he was doing a good job. The same credit should be given to Duncan in 05.
And as a scorer purely, Hakeem was definitely better than Duncan, and I'm very impressed by his ability to not be slowed down one on one. But as an overall offensive player, I think it's closer than most people think, because Duncan was a better passer/read the defense better.
And I think your agenda is showing with regards to defense. Hakeem's teams never got lit up? And the Suns were great offensively, and Amare was killing Duncan...because Nash was awesome and unstoppable, and that's part of the reason he's so highly regarded. And this is a point you've admitted to before when you wanted to prop Nash up. You yourself said that Amare was only scoring because of Nash creating for him in the PnR, and that Amare got owned when he tried to score on post ups against Duncan.
Also, with regards to Kobe...how come Bowen doesn't get the blame, but Duncan gets discredited for playing with such a "great" defensive teammate? Bowen guarded Kobe one on one a lot, and got lit up constantly. And a criticism that can be levied against Popovich for his "take away the 3 and paint, and give up the midrange" strategy is that players like Kobe feast on the midrange game, and would be prone to light them up.
And the players you mention Hakeem shutting down, the only legitimately awesome defensive job was against Ewing. Parish was a 3rd option, isn't that the kind of player Duncan gets criticized for being "hidden" on? Why wasn't he guarding McHale, who averaged 26/9 on 63% TS? Robinson was a very mediocre post scorer, with no back to the basket game. He didn't shut down Shaq at all. I can agree he outplayed him, but Shaq was scoring at elite levels. How is this any different from Amare vs Duncan in 05? Amare was no Shaq, but Shaq was also not getting spoonfed on every play. And Duncan did defend Shaq quite a bit in 02 and 03, and guarded him quite well, better than Robinson did, actually.
And you're talking about man defense mainly. Team defense is what matters most, and there's really nothing wrong with Duncan's team defense, especially earlier prime Duncan (98-03).
Okay folks a few things:
