Retro POY '99-00 (Voting Complete)

Manuel Calavera · Post #115 » by **Manuel Calavera** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:21 am

Alright the arguments have convinced me that putting Allen Iverson #1 was a mistake, so I've decided to remove him entirely and replace him with Shaq (I forgot how good he was seeing as how I blacked out the whole season - Blazer fan). I've also decided to move Garnett above Payton in my list, everything else I think is set in stone.

1. Shaq
2. Mourning
3. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Payton

With Duncan as an HM

Silver Bullet · Post #116 » by **Silver Bullet** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:24 am

Baller 24 wrote:Not to high on Reggie even though he was great, I believe he deserves an HM, but definitely not individually better than the likes of KG, Payton, or Kobe.

Why ?

Just purely boxscore stats ?

Baller 24 · Post #117 » by **Baller 24** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:25 am

Silver Bullet wrote:
Why ?

Just purely boxscore stats ?

No, but I believe the Larry Bird's coaching had a lot to do with the Pacers success from '98 to '00, and furthermore, the emergence of Jalen Rose that entire season was pretty big, it was a two-man perimeter oriented game. And based on box scores, Reggie gets an advantage as his game was up'ed in the playoffs. IMHO there is absolutely no way to argue Reggie over Payton and Garnett in the RS for sure, and even in the playoffs Payton almost single handedly got them passed the Jazz, had a TS% of even 61.

Silver Bullet · Post #118 » by **Silver Bullet** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:27 am

Baller 24 wrote:
Silver Bullet wrote:
Why ?

Just purely boxscore stats ?

No, but I believe the Larry Bird's coaching had a lot to do with the Pacers success from '98 to '00, and furthermore, the emergence of Jalen Rose that entire season was pretty big, it was a two-man perimeter oriented game. And based on box scores, Reggie gets an advantage as his game was up'ed in the playoffs.

Jalen Rose, yes.

But Larry Bird's coaching ? Larry Bird didn't do anything. He was just there to give motivational speeches - Carlisle practically ran the team.

Baller 24 · Post #119 » by **Baller 24** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:30 am

There is something he did right that obviously took them out of the lottery ( a 39 win team under Larry Brown), and turned it into a 58 team a season later taking the '98 Bulls to 7 games. Mark Jackson wasn't injured yeah we know that, but he isn't good enough to make almost a 20 game win difference.

Post #120 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:19 am

Wow, so this has been quite a tough year for me. Putting something down now, could possibly still change it tomorrow morning.

1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Zo

Shaq - obviously. 2-5 I just keep going back & forth on.

I've got KG at #2. Bottom line, he was doing it all for his team playing big minutes. I don't really buy the criticisms of him. His #s don't look great against Portland, but neither did Malone's. KG's team came closer to beating Portland than the Jazz did, and they weren't supposed to. The bringing up of All-NBA voting is just bizarre.

I do think there's a bit of a backlash against Garnett because of how well he's done in this project. Honestly, I think he's been overrated as well by us, but the dude finished #2 in MVP voting this year - this isn't just voters here singing his praises.

Malone's a crafty devil. He gets the nod over the next two guys maybe because I'm more convinced of his ability to lead a team to elite status without getting in its way. I also think that for all the talk of Payton's great post-season, I'd give Malone the series MVP nod.

Payton was an animal at this point, and earns the 4 spot. Still, I'm always reluctant to go too far with "he's out there with trash", and Payton gives me concerns on that front. Low percentage volume shooting point guard led the team to similar minor success the next few years, until the team got rid of him for the less highly regarded Allen and got better. I also always have the taste in my mouth of his time with the Lakers which might be unfair. I just thing Payton is a guy who will dominate the ball too much if you let him, and so can at time lifts you to mediocrity but not any further.

Zo was the guy fluctuating the most on my list. I hate to say bad things about him because I like him a lot, but I feel like I have to justify having him so low. I look at Zo, and I see a guy who doesn't play as many minutes as I think an MVP candidate should, who always seems to get upset in the playoffs, and whose team improved on defense in his absence in '01 while winning about as many games. I know that it wasn't all the same team, but he's an MVP candidate this year because people think he's by far the best offensive and defensive player on the team, you would sure think that the team wouldn't be able to recover from losing him without the acquisition of some big time talent.

Honorable Mention:

Duncan - Wasn't far from the top 5.

Iverson - I've got my issues with him, but he did lead a successful team this year.

Bryant - Arrives on the B-list.

Hill - Arguably his best year.

Reggie - Love the guy. Love that he takes nothing off the table. Not well rounded enough to get past the top 5 guys above.

Post #121 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:29 am

I'd like to hear more thoughts on Zo. I don't really let others opinions sway me that much, but I feel like if you and I are this far apart on Zo, I might want to re-evaluate my position.

bastillon · Post #122 » by **bastillon** » Wed May 19, 2010 12:01 pm

2.Alonzo
3.Garnett
4.Karl Malone
5.Payton

HM: Reggie, Vince, Kobe, Duncan

Post #123 » by **fanofthegreats** » Wed May 19, 2010 12:12 pm

Stopped by to say this is a very nice project. I've enjoyed reading a lot of the discussion from the years that have been voted on.

Sedale Threatt · Post #124 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:05 pm

Baller 24 wrote:Not to high on Reggie even though he was great, I believe he deserves an HM, but definitely not individually better than the likes of KG, Payton, or Kobe.

Agreed. He was pretty one-dimensional compared to the others. Granted, he was outstanding at that one dimension, but other than shooting, what does he bring?

Other than a really good postseason, I'm not seeing a case for him at all. Certainly not at the expense of two of those guys.

bballcool34 · Post #125 » by **bballcool34** » Wed May 19, 2010 4:43 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Garnett singlehandedly won that game, no one else could have made that shot.Anyway, to stop derailing the thread, I'm not feeling the Malone love at all, I mean, if you value 5-10 games that high, I guess I can see putting him over KG because he had a good first round, but I really can't see justification for him over Zo.

I can't see Payton over Zo or KG, because it's clear his defense wasn't even on the level of a dominant guard defensively, much less a big.

What? No he didn't, he made a clutch shot, but was sub-par offensively all night.....Pierce and Rondo won the Celtics that game....

anyways, as an outsider, I think Hill deserves some more consideration this year....

Post #126 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed May 19, 2010 5:49 pm

Edited

Sedale Threatt · Post #127 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Wed May 19, 2010 5:50 pm

Two straight sweeps for Shaq. Impressive.

Silver Bullet · Post #128 » by **Silver Bullet** » Wed May 19, 2010 5:54 pm

Dr MJ - did you not count my vote ? I had Iverson 2nd ...

Post #129 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed May 19, 2010 5:55 pm

Silver Bullet wrote:Dr MJ - did you not count my vote ? I had Iverson 2nd ...

Whoops missed Iverson.

Post #130 » by **semi-sentient** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:30 pm

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

Shaq moves into 2nd place all-time, but still a ways behind Duncan. I don't think he'll be able to make up that much ground in 7 years, especially when he's had some seasons where he missed quite a bit of time. Duncan will surely be adding to his total for his 98-99 performance, and his lead could actually grow.

mysticbb · Post #131 » by **mysticbb** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:41 pm

semi-sentient wrote:Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

Shaq moves into 2nd place all-time, but still a ways behind Duncan.

Interesting. Our player of the decade for the 00's would be Duncan ahead of O'Neal and Bryant. I can agree with that order.

Silver Bullet · Post #132 » by **Silver Bullet** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:56 pm

mysticbb wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

Shaq moves into 2nd place all-time, but still a ways behind Duncan.

Interesting. Our player of the decade for the 00's would be Duncan ahead of O'Neal and Bryant. I can agree with that order.

Iverson at 14 behind Paul - who's had maybe 2 elite seasons is a crime.

Mourning at no. 11, despite having played only 1 year the whole decade at a high level.

mysticbb · Post #133 » by **mysticbb** » Wed May 19, 2010 7:01 pm

Silver Bullet wrote:Iverson at 14 behind Paul - who's had maybe 2 elite seasons is a crime.

Mourning at no. 11, despite having played only 1 year the whole decade at a high level.

Well, that is more a result of our approach only to vote for 5 players. I wouldn't put much into it after the Top 4 or Top 5 anyway, but the Top3 is looking rather accurate.

Silver Bullet · Post #134 » by **Silver Bullet** » Wed May 19, 2010 7:05 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Silver Bullet wrote:Iverson at 14 behind Paul - who's had maybe 2 elite seasons is a crime.

Mourning at no. 11, despite having played only 1 year the whole decade at a high level.

Well, that is more a result of our approach only to vote for 5 players. I wouldn't put much into it after the Top 4 or Top 5 anyway, but the Top3 is looking rather accurate.

Well, I don't know about Mourning or Paul - but I think Iverson got shafted because of this new age tendency to focus too much on efficiency.