Retro POY '95-96 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.

2. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares. Outplayed Robinson in the head to head series when the Spurs were favorite.

3. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.

4. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

5. Gary Payton (DPOY, 1st Team All Defense, 2nd Team All NBA, 3rd in playoff Win Shares)

HM: Penny Hardaway - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team, 4th in season Win Shares, Scottie Pippen - All NBA 1st Team and All NBA 1st Defensive team, finished 5th in MVP voting, and 4th in playoff WS, Stockton, Shaq, Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp


Edit: I updated my rankings.

[ElGee]

Btw, I'm not sure if anyone is overly down on Malone's postseason because of his TS%, but a lot of that was FT%. (For some reason, FT defense was great in the playoff's that year.)

If he makes FT's at his career playoff average, his TS% would jump to 52.9% (as well as his scoring average increasing 1.7 ppg). I thought he played great in G5 and G6 vs. Seattle against elimination. 29-15 in G5 and 32-10-7 in G6 with 4 steals. Solid game 7 outside of FT shooting.

Those FT's do count though - if he made them perhaps Utah wins G4 or G7. Incredibly close series. I thought he made up for with passing/offense created and low turnovers.

[drza]

Leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Penny, Olajuwon and Malone in that order. I hope to come back and spend some more time posting (I've already read the thread), but these last 2 weeks have been a beast and I don't know that I'll make it back. If I don't, consider this post my vote. If I do, I'll write it up more formally.

[shawngoat23]

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Penny Hardaway

Not sure how to go here at this point. Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, and Scottie Pippen are on my short list. Some of you might be surprised to see Kemp, but he was a legitimate stud this year and brought it in the post-season.

If I don't change my mind by the time voting closes, I'm going with:

4. Karl Malone
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

[mysticbb]

Of course Jordan did miss some open shots, but all players do.

He missed more than usual, that is the point. It looked like he wasn't quite in the same rhythm especially in game 6. Distracted by Payton? Probably. But I for myself think it had more to do Jordan not being "Jordan" in that game.

That doesn't mean that Payton didn't still play very good defense on him.

For sure, I didn't deny that. He played really good defense against Jordan.

I've only watched bits and pieces of that series recently, so from what I recall they put Payton more on Jordan after game 2. In game 4, I believe he guarded him almost exclusively and they were actually matched up with each other since Harper was hurting.

More, yes, exclusively, no. Jordan played very well off screens and in those cases the Sonics switched. It also was the case that Hawkins and Schrempf were on Jordan for a couple of possessions in each of those games.

You sure about that?

Uh, yes, I'm sure about that, but I'm still wrong. I thought we were talking about the finals. For the regular season you are obviously right. Sorry for that.

Just out of curiosity, are there any box scores available for Jordan's post-season games against the Bad Boy Pistons of the late 80's? I've always been curious as to what Jordan's numbers looked like against them in comparison to the others, particularly when they were at their peak defensively.

No complete boxscores. But some numbers for the series in 1988, 1989 and 1990.

1988 - 27.4/8.8/4.6
1989 - 29.7/5.5/6.5
1990 - 32.1/7.1/6.3

1991 - 29.8/5.2/7 on 64.6 ts%

The 1989 series is somewhat covered by youtube.

Example: Superb game by Jordan (Game 3):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bQ9E0G05TY


Regular season game in April, 1988, Jordan scored 59 points.

1st part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk5mUhQncfI

He did play pretty good against the Knicks in 1992 when they became a good defensive team, but his series against them in 1993 consisted of 2 great games with a couple of stinkers and mediocre (at best) performances mixed in. He shot pretty poorly in that series (outside of that 50+ point game), but he does get somewhat of a break for doing other things well.

That is what Jordan usually did. In games in which he was off with his shot, he usually tried to get to the line more often to still put some points on the board. He also was able to increase his defensive intensity in those cases, because he spent less energy over the course of the game on offense. Obviously Jordan had also a couple of bad games, he wasn't flawless, but he for sure gave me the impression that more often than not he was able to make the right decision how he should act in a game. When he was off with his shot, he didn't force bad shots, he just tried different things and increased his passing game. Jordan was very good at reading the defense and determining which opportunities they give him. Imho Jordan was the best decision maker in the game, maybe Bird was close, but both were ahead of Magic, who tended to "overpassing" it from time to time.

[An Unbiased Fan]

#1 MJ - Leadership on & off the court was great. MVP, All-NBA/All-D 1st, Finals MVP. Best RS & PS player, and led team to historic 72 win season.

#2 DRob - Stellar RS & PS performances. All-NBA/All-D 1st. Would be #1 most years.

#3 Penny - Oh what could have been. 96' Penny was one of the most versatile players I have ever seen. All-NBA 1st, and showed great on court leadership with Shaq out and in the playoffs.

#4 Payton - This was when he was the "glove". His smothering defense is greatly underappreciated by those who didn't see him play in this era. DPOY, All-D 1st, and led Seatle to 64 wins.

#5 Malone - Solid year, All-NBA 1st, good PS. Not the defender yet that he was in 97', but still a one of the best in 96'.

[kaima]

#2 DRob - Stellar RS & PS performances. All-NBA/All-D 1st. Would be #1 most years.

What?!??!!!

#5 Malone - Solid year, All-NBA 1st, good PS.

So Malone had a worse post-season than Robinson?

Are you sure you're voting in the right thread?

Not the defender yet that he was in 97',

Then what does that say for Robinson, who was again on the receiving end of a beating on both sides of the ball from Malone.

Your descriptions make no sense when contrasted between these players.

[kaima]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Penny, Olajuwon and Malone in that order. I hope to come back and spend some more time posting (I've already read the thread), but these last 2 weeks have been a beast and I don't know that I'll make it back. If I don't, consider this post my vote. If I do, I'll write it up more formally.

From any type of micro to macro analysis, I find it really hard to figure how Malone comes in behind both Hakeem and Robinson.

[kaima]

Stockton had an injury that he probably shouldn't have even played with.

And it showed against Seattle.

That's a fair point, but Stockton did show up in a big way in game 7 whereas Malone went AWOL.

Granted.

But Malone did the heavy-lifting, arguably throughout the playoffs, to get the Jazz to that point.

If Stockton, no matter the injury, plays like himself earlier, the series could have been tilted. As it was, I was impressed with Malone's overall series performance, wherein he was the best player on the floor.

That just illutrates the importance of a guy like Stockton.

Yes and no. Malone got them to a game 7 with Stockton playing terribly for most of the series.

Also, Hornacek played extremely well in that series, so it's not like Malone was playing 1 on 5.

Hornacek was the piece that made Utah into a legit title contender.

So I wouldn't disagree with you, needless (and heedless of redundancy) to say.

Code: Select all

  Malone: 27.0 PTS (.501 TS%), 11.6 REB, 5.1 AST
Hornacek: 20.3 PTS (.639 TS%),  3.7 REB, 3.7 AST
Stockton:  9.9 PTS (.452 TS%),  2.9 REB, 7.7 AST

Interesting to note that Hornacek wasn't too hot in game 7 himself, making 3 of 10 shots and scoring less than half what his average was coming into that game.

I do find it interesting that Stockton is noted as second-rate consistently on this site, as well as the undue hype of Payton demolishing him (it would be due, if Stockton wasn't playing with a near-useless arm), but when it comes time to question or attack Malone, suddenly Stockton was a basketball-god-made-flesh who created a superstar named Karl Malone.

For the record, I've always liked Stockton and consider him one of the best PG's ever.

In that sense, I think Malone's series was quite impressive overall, in that the Jazz pushed the Sonics with only one superstar playing at a high level.

It's similar in a playoff context to what Penny is being praised for (rightfully) in regards to regular season performance.

Granted, not a perfect parallel, but I think it speaks well of Malone that he could push the Sonics, a team that won 64 games with a young core of stars in their prime, with Jeff Hornacek as his main complement.

Or at the very least, even when playing as badly as he did in the Sonics series, he's supposed to be more than enough help to get to the Finals. Kind of ridiculous.

No, but what about the contribution of Hornacek? His numbers were pretty insane.

Hornacek was great, within the system and as a second option.

And Malone was dominant in that series.

What always strikes me, as well, was Malone's anger/amusement over the fact that Seattle knew better than to have Kemp guard him.

[JordansBulls]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

In 1996, Malone didn't have better numbers, nor did he win the title over Robinson. Also he wasn't All NBA and Defense like Hakeem and Robinson but also he didn't finish top 5 in MVP voting to overtake them.
Also Drob still had a higher PER in the playoffs and WS/Per48 minutes over Malone.
Not only that but Jeff Hornecek lead the Jazz in WS that postseason.

[kaima]

Re: Drob…One of the big problems with his postseason play that’s getting almost no mention here is defense. As noted, Robinson put up good numbers in the playoffs…they were just lower than his RS output. But the problem was he got outplayed, often greatly, by opposing frontcourt players. Since one of David Robinson’s key strengths is supposedly his D, his failures on that end in the playoffs greatly increase the dropoff from regular to postseason. People are talking about Jordan having two off shooting nights in the final three games of the finals when being guarded by Payton. Isn’t is suspicious that Jordan suddenly had two off games out of three...compared to Malone and Hakeem in 1994, 1995, and 1996…who had a total of three off games out of 15? Where’s the D, David?

So if David Robinson averages 21.1 points and 10.1 boards a game on 44.8% shooting, he’s playing well…but not as well as he should. And that’s on offense,. If the opposing frontcourt player who is also an MVP candidate is averaging 30.1 and 11.3 and shooting over 50%, Robinson’s dropoff is greater than the offensive numbers show. And that’s how David Robinson did and how Malone and Hakeem did in their playoff matchups in 1994, 1995, and 1996.

I think you took Occam's razor to my argument, and explicated the defensive question which I was a bit remiss in doing.

To me Robinson's fundamental flaws were just that: he relied far too much on athleticism on both sides of the ball, and guys more fundamentally gifted, both offensively and defensively, exposed him when matchups were keyed-in, as is inherent to playoff series.

Looking at his play against Malone, a or the parallel line of failure was Robinson's mental frailty. It was like a boy against UFC testosterone pumper when the two faced off: Malone was looking to initiate contact, while David looked like he wanted to run while standing still and taking it.

[kaima]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

In 1996, Malone didn't have better numbers, nor did he win the title over Robinson.

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Further, it should be noted that this matchup-as-a-measurement-of-worth standard works far better with Malone and Robinson than Malone and Jordan because the former guarded each other and played far more similar roles for their teams on a one to one basis.

Also he wasn't All NBA and Defense like Hakeem and Robinson but also he didn't finish top 5 in MVP voting to overtake them

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Also Drob still had a higher PER in the playoffs and WS/Per48 minutes over Malone.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

And Robinson got booted yet again because of that very factor.

Maybe advanced metrics can make Robinson's games of 11, 11 and 17 points against Malone's defense a matchup win for him over the guy, again Malone, that never scored less than 22 in the series.

That's not the greatest of compliments to those measurements.

And further, beating up on Phoenix was quite clearly different from playing Utah. The very fact that Robinson folded so pathetically against Malone, then directly leading to his team again going home early, is a major problem when arguing that Robinson was better or had the superior season.

He again allowed a star post presence to badly outplay him.

Not only that but Jeff Hornecek lead the Jazz in WS that postseason.

I don't think that helps your argument.

[JordansBulls]

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

Yes he did, I acknowledged that. But Robinson still had better playoff numbers than Malone. Higher PER, and better WS/48 minutes.

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Big difference. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting while Malone was 7th. It wasn't like he was top 3-4 in MVP voting.

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Didn't say Malone wasn't a good defender, I said both Robinson and Hakeem made both all nba and all defense teams.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

He was better in the series head to head, I completely agree.

And Robinson got booted yet again because of that very factor.

I don't think that helps your argument.

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

I think the difficult thing here is how to measure Malone. I mean finishing 7th in MVP voting makes it kinda difficult to rank someone #2 in a season. If he were #4 or better I probably would have done so.

What is your argument here? Are you saying Malone should have been #2?

I actually thought about putting Payton #2 here.

[kaima]

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

Yes he did, I acknowledged that. But Robinson still had better playoff numbers than Malone. Higher PER, and better WS/48 minutes.

So, does this mean that you conclude that Robinson played better, and that he was the better player in the Jazz/Spurs series, or simply that, by virtue of these aggregates, he must be placed over Malone?

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Big difference. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting while Malone was 7th. It wasn't like he was top 3-4 in MVP voting.

So, is your voting pattern primarily based on counting up awards shares?

Further, if you're big on matchups defining value, the Robinson/Malone beatdown is a more logical exploration and exclamation as far as standard and point.

That is, on a logical basis.

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Didn't say Malone wasn't a good defender, I said both Robinson and Hakeem made both all nba and all defense teams.

See the bold.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

He was better in the series head to head, I completely agree.

And considering this directly lead to SA's ouster, I think that's a rather big deal.

If Malone having a worse Finals than Jordan knocks him down to 2 in other seasons, why shouldn't Malone's head to head play against Robinson carry similar weight?

I don't think that helps your argument.

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

Which shows the measurement has serious flaws.

Kind of my point.

The measurement is not placing a fair value on Malone demolishing the guy you think was the second best player in the league, nor does it take into account what Malone's presence did for Hornacek's numbers.

The system Utah ran was perfect for Horny. He was perfect within it. But it was DOA without Malone at the center of it.

If you truly believe that Malone contributed so little to Utah's post-season success, then he shouldn't be in your top 10, let alone 5.

I think the difficult thing here is how to measure Malone. I mean finishing 7th in MVP voting makes it kinda difficult to rank someone #2 in a season. If he were #4 or better I probably would have done so.

So this all comes down to award shares, explicitly.

And there's an interesting clash: you value WS and PER, yet they don't agree with the MVP vote.

Bit of a problem.

According to WS and PER in the regular season, Malone should have been number 3 in MVP votes.

Something's got to give.

What is your argument here? Are you saying Malone should have been #2?

Considering what he did to your number 2 in the playoffs, and his overall run in that post-season? Yes.

And I really don't see the argument for Olajuwon over Malone.

[sp6r=underrated]

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

No, Hornecek did not produce more for the Jazz in the post-season JB.

You can't just look up stats, you have to actually try to interpret the number by looking at each stats strengths and weaknesses.

Win Shares as a stat weighs heavily offensive efficiency and (like most stats) doesn't significantly measure defensive impact.

Defenses put significant pressure on Malone by using constant doubles against him. Malone at this point was a very good passer and hit the open man. This often left Hornecek to take wide open shots because of the impact of Malone. This allowed Hornecek to be very efficient from the field, which makes him look very good from a win shares total.

Still, Hornacek did not produce more than Malone. Hornacek scored less, rebounded less, generated less open shots for his teammates, and played far worse defense than Malone. Hornacek was not even close to Malone in production.

[Doctor MJ]

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

Hmm. Just want to chime in on that first line: It really doesn't make sense to have weight criteria differently at different spots. I'm sympathetic to someone to who has thought through the #1 spot more than other spots, and inconsistencies are flaws in evaluation. Not threatening to boot you, but if you really are evaluating like this you should think more on the theory behind your methods.

[sp6r=underrated]

I guess it is time to post my ballot.

1. Jordan: easy choice

I thought this would be an easy choice but the great posts of Kaima, who has been great this thread, gives me doubt. Malone was the better PS performer that year than Robinson as Kaima analysis has shown.

I have voted before for guys who got outplayed in an individual match-up, on the basis of RS play if I felt their RS was of a significantly higher quality. I think Robinson RS really was significantly better, and I don't feel Malone's PS was of a high enough quality to overcome it. I am voting for Robinson but I don't have much confidence in my vote. Nice posting Kaima.

2. Robinson
3. Malone

4. Penny: His play keeping the Magic going early in the season really was epic. It is a shame the NBA lost this great superstar, who was HOF quality, to injuries. I do disagree with Ronnymac's point about him potentially having more impact as a swingman. I know Penny hated playing the point but he was such a match-up problem for other teams, that I think it was better for him to play that position.

5. Kemp: Minority choice, but his impact was extremely close to the guys in contention for top 5, and he picked it up in the PS and ran wild on elite bigs at times.

[JordansBulls]

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

Yes he did, I acknowledged that. But Robinson still had better playoff numbers than Malone. Higher PER, and better WS/48 minutes.

So, does this mean that you conclude that Robinson played better, and that he was the better player in the Jazz/Spurs series, or simply that, by virtue of these aggregates, he must be placed over Malone?

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Big difference. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting while Malone was 7th. It wasn't like he was top 3-4 in MVP voting.

So, is your voting pattern primarily based on counting up awards shares?

Further, if you're big on matchups defining value, the Robinson/Malone beatdown is a more logical exploration and exclamation as far as standard and point.

That is, on a logical basis.

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Didn't say Malone wasn't a good defender, I said both Robinson and Hakeem made both all nba and all defense teams.

See the bold.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

He was better in the series head to head, I completely agree.

And considering this directly lead to SA's ouster, I think that's a rather big deal.

If Malone having a worse Finals than Jordan knocks him down to 2 in other seasons, why shouldn't Malone's head to head play against Robinson carry similar weight?

I don't think that helps your argument.

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

Which shows the measurement has serious flaws.

Kind of my point.

The measurement is not placing a fair value on Malone demolishing the guy you think was the second best player in the league, nor does it take into account what Malone's presence did for Hornacek's numbers.

The system Utah ran was perfect for Horny. He was perfect within it. But it was DOA without Malone at the center of it.

If you truly believe that Malone contributed so little to Utah's post-season success, then he shouldn't be in your top 10, let alone 5.

I think the difficult thing here is how to measure Malone. I mean finishing 7th in MVP voting makes it kinda difficult to rank someone #2 in a season. If he were #4 or better I probably would have done so.

So this all comes down to award shares, explicitly.

And there's an interesting clash: you value WS and PER, yet they don't agree with the MVP vote.

Bit of a problem.

According to WS and PER in the regular season, Malone should have been number 3 in MVP votes.

Something's got to give.

What is your argument here? Are you saying Malone should have been #2?

Considering what he did to your number 2 in the playoffs, and his overall run in that post-season? Yes.

And I really don't see the argument for Olajuwon over Malone.

Ok so if Malone is over Robinson, then should Payton be above Malone?

[JordansBulls]

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

Hmm. Just want to chime in on that first line: It really doesn't make sense to have weight criteria differently at different spots. I'm sympathetic to someone to who has thought through the #1 spot more than other spots, and inconsistencies are flaws in evaluation. Not threatening to boot you, but if you really are evaluating like this you should think more on the theory behind your methods.

Obviously not, but their is a difference is just voting and then one where you give details.

This is what I had, so even up front I already acknowledged that Robinson didn't play well in round 2 vs Utah.
I'm starting to believe that maybe Malone should go up before Robinson because of the head to head battle where Malone played much better.

But I do have a concern. How do you decide here? Do you think a guy who finished 7th in MVP voting should be the #2 player for POY?

Where do you drop Robinson here since he played bad in the head to head? Is the worst spot for him #3 here or do you boot him out of the top 5?


Edit: I've udpated my rankings as it is practical to move Malone ahead of Robinson considering how he outplayed DRob in that series despite having a worse record and also because he was able to go 7 games against the team with the best record in the WCF.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1014424&start=126

[kaima]

Ok so if Malone is over Robinson, then should Payton be above Malone?

If you're implying that, by advancing further, Payton was better, I don't think you're understanding my argument.

First, I don't believe Payton was better than Malone in their series. Malone put up 27, 11 and 5 versus Payton's 20, 5 and 6. Unlike Robinson, Malone not only played well, but was arguably the best player in the series.

Second, my issue is not just who won and who lost between the Jazz/Spurs, but the fact that Malone's domination of Robinson, in a head to head post battle, decided the broader outcome, thus the outcome itself is transmogrified into something that was personified or individuated.

I don't see how the series between the Sonics/Jazz can be analyzed in the same way, as the specific ingredients are far different. It was, by definition, impossible to say that Malone and Payton were in a positional battle.

As I've said throughout, it's not that the Spurs lost to the Jazz. It's that they lost because Robinson was decidedly outplayed by Malone on both ends. Losing a matchup as decidedly as Robinson did (again and again...), calls into question his status in that season and, extrapolated, overall.

What Malone did to Robinson -- a peak Robinson, mind you -- is something that didn't happen to a prime Malone in his career. He was never abused in a playoff series by another player or star on both ends. Same with Jordan. This speaks to player value, in my estimation, as well.

Robinson could not only be contained, he could be abused.

That's what Malone did to him in 96.