RealGM Top 100 List #20

[lorak]

I
-Why do we keep obsessing over David Robinson's box numbers?

Nobody is obsessing over DRob's box score. I would rather say people are obsessing over Barkley's box score, because everyone are talking about his PPG and super efficiency, but what was his impact on the game?

And Robinson's impact was clearly huge outside of box score. For example in 1992 he improved Spurs defense by 7.6 drtg or he was top defensive player in the league at the end of his career (according to RAPM).

[Dr Positivity]

This is a pretty clear vote for me as it's the last of a player in one my tiers. Barkley deserves the vote over Robinson for bringing it in the playoffs while Drob very much did not. And he has longevity on Drob too

I do think DRob was the better regular season player, but the playoffs matter more, pretty clearly.

Vote Barkley

Nominate Pippen

[lorak]

This is a pretty clear vote for me as it's the last of a player in one my tiers. Barkley deserves the vote over Robinson for bringing it in the playoffs while Drob very much did not. And he has longevity on Drob too

I do think DRob was the better regular season player, but the playoffs matter more, pretty clearly.

Overall, over course of their careers they played at very similar level in the playoffs.

[therealbig3]

Why is Pippen better than Drexler? What exactly did Scottie do that Clyde didn't? Why is he the superior basketball player?

Comparable playmaker, better rebounder, better defender. Clyde has a clear edge as a scorer, but not by that much, really. I think offensively, Pippen is just a little bit behind him, while his defense more than makes up for it.

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Charles Barkley. David Robinson is a close second.

Nominate: Scottie Pippen. I can't think of anyone else right now. John Stockton would probably be next on my list.

[ThaRegul8r]

Vote: Barkley

[lorak]

My take on Barkley vs Robinson:
In worst case scenario from DRob standpoint Robinson's value on defense = Barkley's value on offense. But even limited Robinson's offensive value >> negative Barkley's value on defense. That's why overall Robinson was more valuable player.

And BTW, Barkley missed many games during his prime, so here's how much he improved his team offense (I looked at seasons when he missed minimum of 10 games and was leader of the team, so no Rockets seasons, which were past his prime, so don't matter much anyway):

1987 76ers offense was better +4 with Barkley
1991 +2.4
1994 +6.7
1995 +5.0

So it's very good, but Barkley's negative impact on defense was so big that in these seasons his overall impact (net) was:
1987 +2.8
1991 +1.2
1994 +8.1 (this season seems as aberration, because it's the only one year when he had positive impact on defense)
1995 +0.2

(all these numbers are calculated from b-r team game logs and I used b-r possessions formula)

I'll also quote what mysticbb said in one of previous threads:

In 1991 and 1992 Barkley missed 22 games, the 76ers went -1.5 in those games. With Barkley during the same time they went -0.6. That is a VERY small difference someone made who had a 26.6 PER. The 76ers were 3.6 points better offensively, but also 2.7 points worse defensively with Barkley. That is not surprising at all, Barkley was great offensively, but bad defensively.

So once again. We had one player great offensively, but bad defensively and other player great defensively but average (in worst case) offensively. Overall value of second player is bigger.

[ThunderDan9]

An interesting fact about Barkley.

He led BOTH the 92 (aka DREAM TEAM) and the 96 (the so called "Dream Team 3") USA National Teams at the Olympics in scoring! PPG and percentages.

OK, it is just a nuance, but being the best scorer on those stacked (real!) dream teams is an impressive feat.

[Fencer reregistered]

Why is Pippen better than Drexler? What exactly did Scottie do that Clyde didn't? Why is he the superior basketball player?

Exceptional defense.

[penbeast0]

This is a pretty clear vote for me as it's the last of a player in one my tiers. Barkley deserves the vote over Robinson for bringing it in the playoffs while Drob very much did not. And he has longevity on Drob too

I do think DRob was the better regular season player, but the playoffs matter more, pretty clearly.

Overall, over course of their careers they played at very similar level in the playoffs.

Offensively that is . . . defensively Robinson blows Barkley away. The Barkley support is clearly a case of narrative overcoming performance. Barkley was a terrific offensive player and everyone loved to hear what crazy **** he'd say next so he got a ton of positive press, but Robinson was also a terrific offensive player who carried weaker teams farther than Barkley and a great defensive player too. But, teams doubled/tripled him in the playoffs when he had little support on his team (Rodman, JR Reid, Elliot, Maxwell . . . these are not guys you can't leave to help on a superstar) and his numbers went down, then he was outplayed by Hakeem Olujawon, one of the all-time greats who had a super series in Robinson's face . . . and now the narrative is that David Robinson is too nice a guy to be a winner in the playoffs. Coming back from injury, he finally had a superstar to work with in Tim Duncan and was 1B to Duncan's 1A in winning the 1999 title (with no dropoff from being swarmed) plus getting another title in 2003 as a much more limited defensive center.

But even with his playoff dropoff, he's more valuable than Barkley in the playoffs. Barkley got to the finals once and his numbers didn't drop from the regular season but that just means the gap between Robinson's value and Barkley's value was closer, not that Barkley was better . . . Barkley gets more credit for doing less in the playoffs because everyone knew that David Robinson was so much more talented that he SHOULD have done more than he did while everyone knew Barkley's limitations (it's why you see so many people saying he was a great rebounder because he had his numbers while being only 6-5 . . . we are looking at play, not play relative to size but it's the narrative again).

Robinson was the better player when you look at it holistically (ie. including defense, practice and off field, size advantage, performance as a second option as well as performance as a primary), Barkley had the better story.

[penbeast0]

Oh, and we are supposedly talking about NBA performance, the Dream Team is irrelevant except (again) as narrative

[Fencer reregistered]

Pippen is either my top choice for nomination or very close -- IIRC I voted for him all the way back at #10 or so -- so I'll nominate Pippen while the bandwagon seems to be underway.

Still reserving my vote for the actual list.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Charles Barkley
Nominate: Clyde Drexler (finished as high as 2nd in MVP voting, led team to 57 wins for 3 years in a row and #1 seed twice). Also led a championship team in Win Shares in the season and playoffs in 1995.

[Gongxi]

Offensively that is . . . defensively Robinson blows Barkley away. The Barkley support is clearly a case of narrative overcoming performance. Barkley was a terrific offensive player and everyone loved to hear what crazy **** he'd say next so he got a ton of positive press, but Robinson was also a terrific offensive player who carried weaker teams farther than Barkley and a great defensive player too. But, teams doubled/tripled him in the playoffs when he had little support on his team (Rodman, JR Reid, Elliot, Maxwell . . . these are not guys you can't leave to help on a superstar) and his numbers went down, then he was outplayed by Hakeem Olujawon, one of the all-time greats who had a super series in Robinson's face . . . and now the narrative is that David Robinson is too nice a guy to be a winner in the playoffs. Coming back from injury, he finally had a superstar to work with in Tim Duncan and was 1B to Duncan's 1A in winning the 1999 title (with no dropoff from being swarmed) plus getting another title in 2003 as a much more limited defensive center.

But even with his playoff dropoff, he's more valuable than Barkley in the playoffs. Barkley got to the finals once and his numbers didn't drop from the regular season but that just means the gap between Robinson's value and Barkley's value was closer, not that Barkley was better . . . Barkley gets more credit for doing less in the playoffs because everyone knew that David Robinson was so much more talented that he SHOULD have done more than he did while everyone knew Barkley's limitations (it's why you see so many people saying he was a great rebounder because he had his numbers while being only 6-5 . . . we are looking at play, not play relative to size but it's the narrative again).

Robinson was the better player when you look at it holistically (ie. including defense, practice and off field, size advantage, performance as a second option as well as performance as a primary), Barkley had the better story.

I agree with all this, but I'd like to say that for a couple seasons, Sean Elliott was indeed a capable offensive threat that required specific defensive attention.

PS: Checking b-r to make sure I wasn't misremembering- why in god's name is he in a Pistons uni there?

[Gongxi]

Vote: Charles Barkley
Nominate: Clyde Drexler (finished as high as 2nd in MVP voting, led team to 57 wins for 3 years in a row and #1 seed twice). Also led a championship team in Win Shares in the season and playoffs in 1995.

Not it matters (just like 'leading team to X amount of wins' doesn't matter), but how could Drexler have possibly led the Rockets in win shares in the 94-95 regular season?

[penbeast0]

mmm . . . Robert Horry had an off season?

[Gongxi]

Well, the reality is that he didn't, but you'd think before you said something like that, you'd investigate it. If I said Pat Buchanan was the 26th President of the United States, knowing someone would probably say "Hmmm, I think I would've heard about that, and he's not that old", I'd double check.

For the record, it was Olajuwon (10.7) Kenny the Jet (6.1), and then Clyde (5.2), because Drexler only played 35 games for the Rockets that regular season. He did lead them in WS/48, though- not the same thing. Dude played less than half the season for the Rockets. It'd really be something if he managed to lead them in WS then, too.

[colts18]

I don't even have a huge issue with the Drexler had a higher WS/48 than Hakeem in the 95 playoffs, but this is absurd:

WS/48 in 95 playoffs:
Drexler: .167
Hakeem: .143
Horry: .142
Cassell: .138

According to Offensive Win shares, Horry had more offensive win shares than Hakeem in that playoff despite Horry averaging 13.1 PPG, 3.5 AST While Hakeem averaged 33 PPG, 4.5 AST.

[Fencer reregistered]

Does anybody have video of these great post moves of Barkley's? All I can find is him running (good handle for a big who isn't Larry Bird), jumping, dunking, etc.

[JerkyWay]

I'm sorry but I'll be out of discussion for some time due to a very important business trip.

My next 6 votes and nominations:

VOTES:

20. Charles Barkley
21. Dwyane Wade
22. David Robinson
23. Walt Frazier
24. Steve Nash
25. Elgin Baylor

I feel bad for Baylor because I honestly think he was better than that...Stats just doesn't let me put him higher.

NOMINATIONS:

Stockton
Drexler
Gilmore
Hayes
Pippen
Moncrief