Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable?

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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#16 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:44 am

Dipper 13 wrote:
turnover prone

Wilt was a high turnover player


Where exactly did this BS myth originate from?


I'd be interested if you have any detailed articles along these lines.

From what I've gleaned, it seems pretty hard to fathom that he didn't commit a good amount of turnovers. We know for example that when his team was fixated on getting him the ball to volume score his teammates shot well below their capabilities. Hard to imagine then that this didn't involve struggles in the process of Wilt getting the ball out to his teammates when the defense collapsed on him, and naturally, if that was an issue, there would be turnovers along the way.

Wilt also had certain habits that were not good on this front. The tendency to palm the ball away from the man guarding him and move it all about so as to (presumably) bewilder the defender made it very possible for other members of the defense to knock the ball out of his hands. Frankly, when I first saw Wilt do this, I couldn't stop shaking my head at how bad of an idea it was, and I really can't imagine that some contemporary observers weren't thinking the same thing.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#17 » by JordansBulls » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:50 am

When was PER even known as far as a statistic? Because on BBall reference it didn't show up until around 2006.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#18 » by Dipper 13 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:37 am

I'd be interested if you have any detailed articles along these lines.


No, there are almost no article even mentioning the turnovers, steals, giveaways, etc. I can see that there would be fair number of TO's in attempting to forcefeed him down low, but the patience he demonstrated with the 76ers appears to show low risk passes, where the players would be cutting by him & he would basically put the ball in their chest or hands from a close distance.

An example of his patience below shows two fake passes followed by a power move to the basket, drawing four defenders and finding an open Billy C. We can also see the defensive players with their hands up denying the active cutters. If he forced the first pass or two then it would likely be a turnover.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5 (4:30 mark)

But it wasn't as much ball faking as it was to protect it from the defense, also with his beautiful hand offs. No center except perhaps Walton/Russell was ever better at hitting the cutters from the pivot. You may be thinking too much of 1970 playoffs, when his mobility was Bynum-esque, having just come off career a threatening knee injury. He was nowhere near the scoring threat he was in his younger years & therefore more predictable on offense. Plus NY was playing off him a bit. A player like Wilt who relied a lot on his physical power & floor positioning preferred to feel the defender on him in the pivot, so he could better read & react due to his lack of a faceup game. Despite being a stationary pivot for the most part even in Philly, he was great at moving from one side of the lane to the other as the ball swung on the perimeter. With the Lakers I have never seen him that active on offense.


There was also a video which Youtube has since deleted showing Walker, Greer, & Wilt in a triangle setup where the Bullets defense dictated the Sixers passes. Greer had the ball & saw Walker's man was sagging back so he passed to Walker, who's man thus comes up while Greer's man sags. So Walker hits Wilt who makes a two handed touch pass back to Greer for the open shot. It doesn't seem Wilt drew very many double teams due to the constant player movement. I am also assuming that a fair number of his points during the early high scoring Warriors years came in transition as a finisher (primarily from Guy Rodgers) thus inflating his regular season average & overstating his alleged playoff decline (where naturally the game would slow down & there would be less possessions).
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#19 » by Dipper 13 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:45 am

Based on some of the game footage I have seen:

1967 Playoffs vs Celtics (2nd half only)

24 Halfcourt Touches for Wilt
4 assists for Wilt
1 turnover for Wilt
56 offense possessions for team


By all accounts this (Gm. 4) was a very lethargic & inefficient game played by the Sixers compared to their usual standard. Even if we assume that they played their worst game for every single night of the season, the above stats suggest that Wilt averaged roughly 8 assists per game that year (which is true), & only 2 turnovers. An average of 8 assists & only 2 turnovers is excellent for a big man.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#20 » by Wone » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:53 am

ardee wrote:It was his 1963 season. The closest in recent times was LeBron's 31.67 in 2009. Do you think that LeBron or Durant could approach this mark again for an entire season .T here's probably no one else who could even think about it. Unless Anthony Davis turns out to be KG on steroids (KG managed 29.4 in his '04 season. Combination of his rebounding, passing and good steals/blocks nos.)


:nonono:

i hate overrated players. i try hard not to hate anthony davis, but the notion that he could break wilt's 31.84 per record makes it hard not to.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#21 » by ecnirp » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:57 am

If LeBron's post moves continue to improve and he develops a reliable jump shot. Then yes. A lot of IFs though.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#22 » by GetItDone » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:05 am

Done in the 60s.

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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#23 » by Dipper 13 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:17 am

If I'm not mistaken, the above stats suggest a 4.1 assist to turnover ratio for Wilt. This level of efficient playmking and ball control is on par with the top PG's of today. Only Chris Paul & Jose Calderon rank (slightly) higher.


http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... int-guards
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#24 » by parapooper » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:32 am

As I already posted, LeBron had a PER of 32.6 for the entire 2009 season (RS + PS), which is way harder than a 31.84 PER in just the RS.

So the real question should be if LeBron's record is breakable.
Because even if someone matches Wilt's PER of 31.84 in the regular season they would then have to put up a PER of 35 over a 20 game postseason (or 38+ over a 10 game postseason, ...) to match LeBron 09.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#25 » by Kobe 62 Mavs 61 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:01 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
ardee wrote:It was his 1963 season. The closest in recent times was LeBron's 31.67 in 2009. Do you think that LeBron or Durant could approach this mark again for an entire season .T here's probably no one else who could even think about it. Unless Anthony Davis turns out to be KG on steroids (KG managed 29.4 in his '04 season. Combination of his rebounding, passing and good steals/blocks nos.)


Weird question. If LeBron can get within 0.17 of the record, it's quite clearly breakable.


Exactly.

Also, I dunno if it's been posted, but to the guy that said blocks and such weren't recorded back then, nor were turnovers. Not saying it would've brought it down more than the other stuff would've raised it, but a big man that plays 47 minutes a game would've had more of those than what we're used to seeing.
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Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#26 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:43 pm

Kobe 62 Mavs 61 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
ardee wrote:It was his 1963 season. The closest in recent times was LeBron's 31.67 in 2009. Do you think that LeBron or Durant could approach this mark again for an entire season .T here's probably no one else who could even think about it. Unless Anthony Davis turns out to be KG on steroids (KG managed 29.4 in his '04 season. Combination of his rebounding, passing and good steals/blocks nos.)


Weird question. If LeBron can get within 0.17 of the record, it's quite clearly breakable.


Exactly.

Also, I dunno if it's been posted, but to the guy that said blocks and such weren't recorded back then, nor were turnovers. Not saying it would've brought it down more than the other stuff would've raised it, but a big man that plays 47 minutes a game would've had more of those than what we're used to seeing.


Even if he averaged 4 to's a game his per would sky rocket after you added in blocks, steals, and offensive rebounds
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#27 » by MacGill » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:06 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the above stats suggest a 4.1 assist to turnover ratio for Wilt. This level of efficient playmking and ball control is on par with the top PG's of today. Only Chris Paul & Jose Calderon rank (slightly) higher.


http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/playe ... int-guards


Dipper13, I enjoy the articles you share here but I have a few points here.

1) In all the video i have watched of Wilt what I saw was the ability to make the safe pass with tendancies to also showcase his talent as a passer. This is one of the points that fans of my Raptors have with Jose. It's to simple to predict hence the empty assist. again much video of what I watched was give the ball to Wilt and he made the obvious/simple pass which converted into a bucket. I do not want to detract from what he did but the overall game was much more simplistic in those days when it came to overall defensive strategies.

We watched KG, a fantastic passer, forced to turnover the ball because of how much more effective the double team now is.

2) In no way could you compare what Wilt did to any PG. Unless he is bringing up the ball on every possession etc. Getting the ball passed to you and you making the pass is much different then bringing the ball up the court while needing the court vision to control the ball + see what was available. Wilt was not this guy.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#28 » by Dipper 13 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:25 am

^^ Where he got in trouble with those passes was when he held the ball up high in one hand & attempted to hit a cutter down the middle in heavy traffic, where it was much easier to deflect than his scoop handoffs. My only point was to try & understand where this inexplicable "turnover machine" label came from. And now it seems you have labeled him as an empty assist guy, despite leading the best offensive team in the league.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#29 » by EGarrett » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:17 pm

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:Wilts Per was actually higher than that but we don't have offensive rebounds, block and steals stats to include it.
No one else's blocks, steals, or offensive rebounds were counted either, and other negative stats weren't counted. PER is all about how you compare to everyone else in whatever stats were collected. It could have been equal or even worse to his recorded PER.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#30 » by MacGill » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:25 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:^^ Where he got in trouble with those passes was when he held the ball up high in one hand & attempted to hit a cutter down the middle in heavy traffic, where it was much easier to deflect than his scoop handoffs. My only point was to try & understand where this inexplicable "turnover machine" label came from. And now it seems you have labeled him as an empty assist guy, despite leading the best offensive team in the league.


Not at all, but when you are making assist to turnover comparsions about Wilt compared to actual PG's you have to take the crunchy with the smooth. Wilt never went a full season being the actual PG of his team. And well, you choose to use Jose as an example trying to prop up Wilt's feat.

There are obvious glaring advantages/disadvantages to this strategy but my point was to keep it in context here. Let's not act like Wilt was running the fast break a'la Magic or that he could cross you over like CP3. Again, I do not want to detract from what he did and I am not saying he was a turnover machine. I am saying from what I watched it was a much more simple offence as you would expect if a 7'1 giant was running the offence through him.
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#31 » by 28reloaded » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:47 pm

When you consider the fact that if ORB & BLKs were recorded, Wilt's would probably be in the 34-35 range. So no, it will never be broken
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#32 » by kasino » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:15 pm

is this the best season ever?
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Re: Do you think Wilt's 31.84 PER record is unbreakable? 

Post#33 » by Dipper 13 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:53 am

I am saying from what I watched it was a much more simple offence as you would expect if a 7'1 giant was running the offence through him.



My apologies for the confusion. Based on my viewing of the game footage of the 1964 Warriors Celtics NBA Finals matchup (Gm. 4), we can see a few statistics below.

-16 Halfcourt Touches for Wilt

-1 assist for Wilt

-1* turnover for Wilt (which came from what was clearly an incorrect traveling call, even by the textbook 60's standards)

-52 offensive possessions for team



Keep in mind this is against the '64 Celtics, arguably the top defensive team ever, from KC Jones on down to their MVP Big Bill Russell. They featured aggressive full court pressing and swarmed Wilt in the half court denying him the ball.

It seems that not only is this malicious claim of Wilt being a turnover machine completely baseless, but also that the more Wilt had the ball in his hands in the half court, the better the team offense was (by far). He was someone who played in the wrong era, well ahead of his time.

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