RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[Lightning25]

Interesting to see Yao's name come up in that stat. I actually do think he might have had a top 50 peak of all-time. His peak is up there with Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, etc. The only issue with him was his injury problem in 2007 (his peak). Although you could argue that Yao's peak was in 2009 instead but he was far more dominant in 2007 imo.

[mysticbb]

Interesting to see Yao's name come up in that stat. I actually do think he might have had a top 50 peak of all-time. His peak is up there with Dwight Howard, Alonzo Mourning, etc. The only issue with him was his injury problem in 2007 (his peak). Although you could argue that Yao's peak was in 2009 instead but he was far more dominant in 2007 imo.

Yeah, injuries are a problem, and for Yao we might just have to accept that we never seen him play at his full peak for more than a couple of games. The 2006 and 2009 season also made the cut. I think, if Yao could have stayed as healthy in 2007 as he was in 2009, he would have ended up even higher on that list. The injuries didn't just effect his minutes, but also his playing level, unfortunately.
Another player to discuss is Manu Ginobili. The guy produced great numbers on a consistent basis. He is on that list 8 times, with 2005 being his highest at 6.2, 2007 at 5.9, 2008 at 5.3, 2012 at 5.1, 2011 at 5.0, 2006 at 4.9 for example.

[GSP]

Really surprised to see how early DRob got in. How his peak is this much higher than Ewing or Malone?

[kasino]

are yall ever going to due highest primes?
peaks one season, multiple year stretches would be nice

[ardee]

are yall ever going to due highest primes?
peaks one season, multiple year stretches would be nice

Well next year will hopefully be Retro Offensive Player/Defensive Player of the Year. Then 2014 will be another Top 100.

So, maybe 2015

[ardee]

All right, so just a few random thoughts I feel like spouting.

Before the project I had Magic and Bird both in my top 4. I was pretty disappointing when they slipped to 8 and 7 respectively. Also, I was pretty sure about Magic over Bird.

I just wanted thoughts on the bigs vs. Bird and Magic. I'm pretty sure on the top three (Wilt, Jordan, Shaq), and the order of the other bigs (Hakeem, Russell, Kareem). Magic and Bird are the odd ones out. Do you separate them? Where do they fit in?

[Dipper 13]

I feel like Kareem-Walton, Bird-Magic, LeBron-Erving, KG-Duncan are just too close to make a definite ranking. I'm pretty sure though they're all better than Wilt 67

Below we can read Coach Sharman's comments on Wilt:


The Miami News - Apr 17, 1967








Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers - Wayne Lynch

As soon as the 76ers reached the dressing room after their exhilarating last quarter that had given them a 140-116 victory, Wilt made a speech: "we've got to get four more wins before this season is over. Let's not lose sight of that," He was forceful, almost solemn. Such an attitude had as much to do with Philadelphia's success as Wilt's unmatched physical endowments. The key word was spoken afterwards by Alex Hannum, the 76er coach: "He was dedicated out there."






Regular Season:




Sarasota Journal - Feb 15, 1967




The Spokesman-Review - Feb 26, 1967






NBA Record - 35 consecutive field goals without a miss from February 17, 1967 through February 28, 1967


NBA Record - Most field goals in a game without a miss (18-18, Philadelphia 76ers vs. the Baltimore Bullets on February 24, 1967)

Chamberlain also holds the next two most with 16-16 (March 19, 1967) and 15-15 (January 20, 1967)


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).

-Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)

-Also an NBA Finals record.


NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).

-Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.







Playoffs:


Vs. Royals

G1 - 41 points, 23 rebounds, 5 assists, 63% FG
G2 - 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists, 67% FG
G3 - 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists, 62% FG
G4 - 18 points, 27 rebounds, 9 assists, 50% FG

Series Average: 28.0 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 11 apg, 61% FG
Oscar Robertson: 24.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 11.3 apg, 51.6% FG


Vs. Celtics

G1 - 24 points, 32 rebounds, 12 assists, 12 blocks, 69% FG
G2 - 15 points, 29 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 blocks, 45% FG
G3 - 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks, 57% FG
G4 - 20 points, 22 rebounds, 10 assists, at least 3 blocks, 44% FG
G5 - 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists, 7 blocks, 63% FG

Series Average: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 6+ bpg, 56% FG
Bill Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, 36% FG



Vs. Warriors

G1 - 16 points, 33 rebounds, 10 assists, 75% FG (including a game-saving block on Nate)
G2 - 10 points, 38 rebounds (26 in 1st half), 10 assists, 10 blocks, 40% FG
G3 - 26 points, 26 rebounds, 5 assists, 52% FG
G4 - 10 points, 27 rebounds, 8 assists, 11 blocks, 50% FG
G5 - 20 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 60% FG
G6 - 24 points, 23 rebounds, 4 assists, 62% FG

Series Average: 17.6 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, 56% FG
Nate Thurmond: 14.1 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 3.3 apg, 34% FG


Playoff averages: 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, 57.9% FG/54.6% TS

[ardee]

I feel like Kareem-Walton, Bird-Magic, LeBron-Erving, KG-Duncan are just too close to make a definite ranking. I'm pretty sure though they're all better than Wilt 67

Below we can read Coach Sharman's comments on Wilt:


The Miami News - Apr 17, 1967








Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers - Wayne Lynch

As soon as the 76ers reached the dressing room after their exhilarating last quarter that had given them a 140-116 victory, Wilt made a speech: "we've got to get four more wins before this season is over. Let's not lose sight of that," He was forceful, almost solemn. Such an attitude had as much to do with Philadelphia's success as Wilt's unmatched physical endowments. The key word was spoken afterwards by Alex Hannum, the 76er coach: "He was dedicated out there."






Regular Season:




Sarasota Journal - Feb 15, 1967




The Spokesman-Review - Feb 26, 1967






NBA Record - 35 consecutive field goals without a miss from February 17, 1967 through February 28, 1967


NBA Record - Most field goals in a game without a miss (18-18, Philadelphia 76ers vs. the Baltimore Bullets on February 24, 1967)

Chamberlain also holds the next two most with 16-16 (March 19, 1967) and 15-15 (January 20, 1967)


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).

-Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)

-Also an NBA Finals record.


NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).

-Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.







Playoffs:


Vs. Royals

G1 - 41 points, 23 rebounds, 5 assists, 63% FG
G2 - 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists, 67% FG
G3 - 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists, 62% FG
G4 - 18 points, 27 rebounds, 9 assists, 50% FG

Series Average: 28.0 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 11 apg, 61% FG
Oscar Robertson: 24.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 11.3 apg, 51.6% FG


Vs. Celtics

G1 - 24 points, 32 rebounds, 12 assists, 12 blocks, 69% FG
G2 - 15 points, 29 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 blocks, 45% FG
G3 - 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks, 57% FG
G4 - 20 points, 22 rebounds, 10 assists, at least 3 blocks, 44% FG
G5 - 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists, 7 blocks, 63% FG

Series Average: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 6+ bpg, 56% FG
Bill Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, 36% FG



Vs. Warriors

G1 - 16 points, 33 rebounds, 10 assists, 75% FG (including a game-saving block on Nate)
G2 - 10 points, 38 rebounds (26 in 1st half), 10 assists, 10 blocks, 40% FG
G3 - 26 points, 26 rebounds, 5 assists, 52% FG
G4 - 10 points, 27 rebounds, 8 assists, 11 blocks, 50% FG
G5 - 20 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 60% FG
G6 - 24 points, 23 rebounds, 4 assists, 62% FG

Series Average: 17.6 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, 56% FG
Nate Thurmond: 14.1 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 3.3 apg, 34% FG


Playoff averages: 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, 57.9% FG/54.6% TS

+10000

The Wilt hatred in this project has been ridiculous.

I've learnt a ton from this project about a variety of players, from Russell to Garnett to LeBron to West.

The most important thing I learned though, was that people will never be logical when a player is so devastatingly good that logical arguments cannot be used against him.

[bastillon]

we all know you can't fall in love with Wilt's stats because they're empty. the guy was arguing for every stat with scorekeepers. look at his monstrous stats in 65 and compare them to his negligible impact. it's almost sad that you can put up 35/23/3.5 and make no impact (Wilt 65). what matters more is that Wilt-less Sixers would still put up about 5-6 SRS quite easily. so Wilt didn't even give them more lift than Rodman 96-97 did on the Bulls.

[Dipper 13]

+10000

The Wilt hatred in this project has been ridiculous.

I've learnt a ton from this project about a variety of players, from Russell to Garnett to LeBron to West.

Not just this project. I still sense however there is a silent majority who have yet to lose their sanity. Just above we have seen a peaked Wilt unfavorably compared to a 35 yr. old one dimensional specialist.



Loose balls: easy money, hard fouls, cheap laughs & true love in the NBA - Jayson Williams





Chicago Tribune - Feb 8, 1997

Also offering his opinion of Rodman was Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder and No. 2 scorer in NBA history. Chamberlain and Magic Johnson are among several Hall of Famers who believe the presence of too many "specialists"--players who only shoot or rebound or defend is one reason why scoring is down and the game is slower. Rodman, Chamberlain said, "is a big rebounder. He does it better than anyone else out there. But I am amazed (at) guys who tend not to want to understand that playing the complete game is what the game should be about. "I remember Elgin Baylor scoring 45 and 71 points against us beating us and getting 18 rebounds. I'm not impressed with Dennis' 17 rebound average. He's not an all-around player. Why I like a guy like Charles Barkley so much is he gives his team whatever it needs at that time."



Herald-Journal - Feb 6, 1997




Apr 24, 1997

The league has become simply too boring to watch.

At least that's the conclusion drawn by one of the NBA's legendary stars, Wilt Chamberlain, who, as always, had a few other observations about the league during a recent visit to New York.



Wilt Chamberlain, one of the game's legends, says the NBA has become a boring league dominated by endorsement-driven athletes. "The public-relations guys have sold us all a bill of goods," Chamberlain said. "They're the real stars of the league."

The best part of the game, he said, is the commercials, in which players hustle and play defense -- two things fans rarely see in actual games. "The league would have us believe these guys walk on water," said [Wilt Chamberlain], who averaged 30.1 points and 22.9 rebounds during his 14-year career with the Philadelphia and Golden State Warriors, Philadelphia 76ers and Los Angeles Lakers. "The truth is, they're really just walking in mud."

[ardee]

+10000

The Wilt hatred in this project has been ridiculous.

I've learnt a ton from this project about a variety of players, from Russell to Garnett to LeBron to West.

Not just this project. I still sense however there is a silent majority who have yet to lose their sanity. Just above we have seen a peaked Wilt unfavorably compared to a 35 yr. old one dimensional specialist.



Loose balls: easy money, hard fouls, cheap laughs & true love in the NBA - Jayson Williams





Chicago Tribune - Feb 8, 1997

Also offering his opinion of Rodman was Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder and No. 2 scorer in NBA history. Chamberlain and Magic Johnson are among several Hall of Famers who believe the presence of too many "specialists"--players who only shoot or rebound or defend is one reason why scoring is down and the game is slower. Rodman, Chamberlain said, "is a big rebounder. He does it better than anyone else out there. But I am amazed (at) guys who tend not to want to understand that playing the complete game is what the game should be about. "I remember Elgin Baylor scoring 45 and 71 points against us beating us and getting 18 rebounds. I'm not impressed with Dennis' 17 rebound average. He's not an all-around player. Why I like a guy like Charles Barkley so much is he gives his team whatever it needs at that time."



Herald-Journal - Feb 6, 1997




Apr 24, 1997

The league has become simply too boring to watch.

At least that's the conclusion drawn by one of the NBA's legendary stars, Wilt Chamberlain, who, as always, had a few other observations about the league during a recent visit to New York.



Wilt Chamberlain, one of the game's legends, says the NBA has become a boring league dominated by endorsement-driven athletes. "The public-relations guys have sold us all a bill of goods," Chamberlain said. "They're the real stars of the league."

The best part of the game, he said, is the commercials, in which players hustle and play defense -- two things fans rarely see in actual games. "The league would have us believe these guys walk on water," said [Wilt Chamberlain], who averaged 30.1 points and 22.9 rebounds during his 14-year career with the Philadelphia and Golden State Warriors, Philadelphia 76ers and Los Angeles Lakers. "The truth is, they're really just walking in mud."

And even the minority can only use impact stats to knock Wilt.

The main argument against '67 Wilt was that in 1969, without Wilt, the Sixers were a 5 SRS team.

Well, incredibly, the Wilt-less Sixers lost in the first round to an even older Boston team then the one they beat in '67.

That ends the argument right then and there. A first round exit vs winning a title? Meh.

[ardee]

we all know you can't fall in love with Wilt's stats because they're empty. the guy was arguing for every stat with scorekeepers. look at his monstrous stats in 65 and compare them to his negligible impact. it's almost sad that you can put up 35/23/3.5 and make no impact (Wilt 65). what matters more is that Wilt-less Sixers would still put up about 5-6 SRS quite easily. so Wilt didn't even give them more lift than Rodman 96-97 did on the Bulls.

'93 Bulls (with Jordan): 6.19 SRS
'94 Bulls (without Jordan): 2.87 SRS

'93 MJ made only a 3.32 SRS difference! '93 MJ was having the same impact as '97 Rodman!

You see how silly that sounds?

[ThaRegul8r]

incredibly, the Wilt-less Sixers lost in the first round to an even older Boston team then the one they beat in '67.

That ends the argument right then and there. A first round exit vs winning a title? Meh.

I don't care to get into the extraneous stuff as I don't particularly care for agendas for or against players, but, to be fair, no one beat Boston in '69 in the postseason. So I don't see how it matters that a team happened to have the misfortune of drawing Boston in the first round when none of the other teams that faced Boston in later rounds beat them either. The Sixers without Wilt didn't beat Boston, and the Lakers with Wilt didn't beat them either.

[MisterWestside]

+10000

The Wilt hatred in this project has been ridiculous.

I've learnt a ton from this project about a variety of players, from Russell to Garnett to LeBron to West.

Not just this project. I still sense however there is a silent majority who have yet to lose their sanity. Just above we have seen a peaked Wilt unfavorably compared to a 35 yr. old one dimensional specialist.

I'm with you and ardee, trust me. Not to get into a lazy "watch the games" argument here but I'll do it anyway: NO sane basketball fan who saw Wilt play and watched footage would make these ridiculous statements about Wilt.

I think he was perhaps a prisoner of his own era more than anything else. He was such a marvel that teams literally didn't know how to implement his talents properly. There's no way he couldn't make superstar impact in today's game.

[MisterWestside]

{color=#00FF00]
'93 Bulls (with Jordan): 6.19 SRS
'94 Bulls (without Jordan): 2.87 SRS

'93 MJ made only a 3.32 SRS difference! '93 MJ was having the same impact as '97 Rodman![/color]

You see how silly that sounds?

[Dipper 13]

I'm with you and ardee, trust me. Not to get into a lazy "watch the games" argument here but I'll do it anyway: NO sane basketball fan who saw Wilt play and watched footage would make these ridiculous statements about Wilt.

I think he was perhaps a prisoner of his own era more than anything else. He was such a marvel that teams literally didn't know how to implement his talents properly. There's no way he couldn't make superstar impact in today's game.

It is a futile effort. The prideful man believes he is always thinking progressively, much like what I see on this forum. Still may be the best board as far as members who can actually engage in some discussion of substance, which is more than can be said for the majority of NBA forums on the internet. However the mistake here is those who confuse the presentation of ambiguous numbers with objectivity. There is little in this world one hates more than admitting error, and possibly realising they were right the first time.

[bastillon]

incredibly, the Wilt-less Sixers lost in the first round to an even older Boston team then the one they beat in '67.

That ends the argument right then and there. A first round exit vs winning a title? Meh.

I don't care to get into the extraneous stuff as I don't particularly care for agendas for or against players, but, to be fair, no one beat Boston in '69 in the postseason. So I don't see how it matters that a team happened to have the misfortune of drawing Boston in the first round when none of the other teams that faced Boston in later rounds beat them either. The Sixers without Wilt didn't beat Boston, and the Lakers with Wilt didn't beat them either.

not to mention 68 Sixers with Wilt didn't beat Boston either. or that Russell was quoted by at least 2 sources as being injured in 67 playoffs. or that Lakers regressed with Wilt (drastically so on offense). I don't see how Wilt could've such a big impact all things considered. he changed teams and one of them went -3 SRS without while also missing its 2nd best big man, and the other also went about -3 SRS but with Wilt.

I'm amazed how people are willing to overlook those factors when it comes to Wilt. boxscore stats FTW.

[ardee]

incredibly, the Wilt-less Sixers lost in the first round to an even older Boston team then the one they beat in '67.

That ends the argument right then and there. A first round exit vs winning a title? Meh.

I don't care to get into the extraneous stuff as I don't particularly care for agendas for or against players, but, to be fair, no one beat Boston in '69 in the postseason. So I don't see how it matters that a team happened to have the misfortune of drawing Boston in the first round when none of the other teams that faced Boston in later rounds beat them either. The Sixers without Wilt didn't beat Boston, and the Lakers with Wilt didn't beat them either.

not to mention 68 Sixers with Wilt didn't beat Boston either. or that Russell was quoted by at least 2 sources as being injured in 67 playoffs. or that Lakers regressed with Wilt (drastically so on offense). I don't see how Wilt could've such a big impact all things considered. he changed teams and one of them went -3 SRS without while also missing its 2nd best big man, and the other also went about -3 SRS but with Wilt.

I'm amazed how people are willing to overlook those factors when it comes to Wilt. boxscore stats FTW.

Are we talking about '68 Wilt? No. We're talking about '67 Wilt. In '68, the Sixers' 2nd best player in Billy Cunningham was injured, and every Sixer player was injured in some way, if you want to play that game. Throw Hondo out of the series and knock all of the Celtics, then let's see what happens.

And the Wilt haters need to stop playing that Russell injured card. Seriously, there is no proof, whatsoever. After the series, Russell congratulated Wilt for absolutely destroying him. If he was injured, Russell, would have made it known. He wouldn't want people to think Wilt had beaten him fair and square when he personally knew that he hadn't.

And if that -3 SRS is what you want to continue using as your only real argument, then again:

{color=#00FF00]
'93 Bulls (with Jordan): 6.19 SRS
'94 Bulls (without Jordan): 2.87 SRS

'93 MJ made only a 3.32 SRS difference! '93 MJ was having the same impact as '97 Rodman![/color]

[MisterWestside]

Are we talking about '68 Wilt? No. We're talking about '67 Wilt. In '68, the Sixers' 2nd best player in Billy Cunningham was injured, and every Sixer player was injured in some way, if you want to play that game. Throw Hondo out of the series and knock all of the Celtics, then let's see what happens.

And the Wilt haters need to stop playing that Russell injured card. Seriously, there is no proof, whatsoever. After the series, Russell congratulated Wilt for absolutely destroying him. If he was injured, Russell, would have made it known. He wouldn't want people to think Wilt had beaten him fair and square when he personally knew that he hadn't.

And if that -3 SRS is what you want to continue using as your only real argument, then again:

{color=#00FF00]
'93 Bulls (with Jordan): 6.19 SRS
'94 Bulls (without Jordan): 2.87 SRS

'93 MJ made only a 3.32 SRS difference! '93 MJ was having the same impact as '97 Rodman![/color]

With/without FTW. Rodman da GOAT!

[ardee]

Are we talking about '68 Wilt? No. We're talking about '67 Wilt. In '68, the Sixers' 2nd best player in Billy Cunningham was injured, and every Sixer player was injured in some way, if you want to play that game. Throw Hondo out of the series and knock all of the Celtics, then let's see what happens.

And the Wilt haters need to stop playing that Russell injured card. Seriously, there is no proof, whatsoever. After the series, Russell congratulated Wilt for absolutely destroying him. If he was injured, Russell, would have made it known. He wouldn't want people to think Wilt had beaten him fair and square when he personally knew that he hadn't.

And if that -3 SRS is what you want to continue using as your only real argument, then again:

{color=#00FF00]
'93 Bulls (with Jordan): 6.19 SRS
'94 Bulls (without Jordan): 2.87 SRS

'93 MJ made only a 3.32 SRS difference! '93 MJ was having the same impact as '97 Rodman![/color]

With/without FTW. Rodman da GOAT!

If people are using with/without as LITERALLY their only point against Wilt, then they should put their money where their mouth is and go Nash/Russell/Walton as the three greatest peaks in some order.