New Franchise: Kevin Garnett vs Moses Malone

[Okada]

To add to that, you threw out that 52.1% stat for Malone which is also extremely misleading. So for 2008, yeah, KG had 53.2% and in 1979 had 52.1%. Look at the rest of that voting. KG was 3rd to guys with 70.6% and 87.7% with 15 of 126 first place votes. In 1979, Moses was 1st with 52.1% and 112 of 214 first place votes, and the 2nd and 3rd guys had 16.3% and 13.0%. Again, misleading statistic cherry picking.

[mysticbb]

You genuinely come off like you're arbitrarily picking out whatever random advanced stat makes your case sound best because all the other stats don't work for you.

The fun fact is that basically all really relevant stats to determine a player's actual playing level are speaking for Garnett. But then, you picked the individual accolade in which Moses Malone got more due to circumstances than Garnett. Why not judging it about DPOY awards? Or All-Defense teams? Seems as logical as a choice as the MVP award to me.

I have straight up conceded that Garnett was a better passer, ball handler, and defender from the very start. At this point it's starting to seem like your definition of a player's quality is just checking off boxes for specific skills. I don't judge players that way.

So, I'm the one who argues that Garnett has the better overall skills and had the bigger impact on the game based on actually describing the skills; while you are the one sticking to points, offensive rebounds and MVP awards. Yeah, I really judge a player differently than you, because I actually care how he really played. Sorry for doing that, but I actually think that this is the right way to do it.

[Okada]

The fun fact is that basically all really relevant stats to determine a player's actual playing level are speaking for Garnett. But then, you picked the individual accolade in which Moses Malone got more due to circumstances than Garnett. Why not judging it about DPOY awards? Or All-Defense teams? Seems as logical as a choice as the MVP award to me.

Your definition of relevant statistics is, whatever statistic you can pick out of the scrap heap to make KG sound better.

An MVP is obviously a more important that DPOY or All-Defense teams. And for the 3rd or 4th time, I've admitted from the start that KG is the superior defender so you can stop the broken record act now.

There's no case for Malone getting more MVPs by circumstance. You tried to make a really bad case, I showed why it made no sense, and that's that.

So, I'm the one who argues that Garnett has the better overall skills and had the bigger impact on the game based on actually describing the skills; while you are the one sticking to points, offensive rebounds and MVP awards. Yeah, I really judge a player differently than you, because I actually care how he really played. Sorry for doing that, but I actually think that this is the right way to do it.

Uh...no? I'm saying I don't believe in judging a player like a checklist. Just because a player is decent at two things doesn't mean he's better than a guy who was amazing at one thing. Get it? I don't know what you're complaining about anyways, it's obvious that you've never seen a game of basketball in your life.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Here's a fun fact for you: KG got bounced in the first round of the playoffs for seven consecutive years.

Not really, the facts are that the Timberwolves lost as a team in the first round; Garnett was part of the team which actually faced a better team 7 times in a row. Those things happen.

All of the mindless, arbitrary stats you dredge up isn't gonna change that fact or my opinion of him.

I actually presented facts. You were saying that Garnett lost more (while emphasizing the more by using caps, mind you) while in reality Moses Malone was part of the team which lost more games (not just in total, but even more in terms of the percentage). That fact just simply proves that nikomCH is right and your proclaimed advantage in terms of judging the players by using your memory is a flawed idea. I know you take pride in that, but your misplaced pride is not going to change the facts.

Moses was a better, more dominant, more effective player than Garnett.

Why? What exactly did Moses Malone better than Garnett despite grabbing more offensive rebounds and scoring more points based on getting more putbacks and some more FT? I showed that in general he was the worse rebounder; there shouldn't even a debate about the defensive part at all and Garnett was the far superior passer and ball handler. Now, scoring some more points while being worse (in some parts way worse) in every other aspect of the game really make someone the "better, more dominant, more effective player"?
What you are presenting here is a simply case of nostalgia accompanied by the belief that your memory is actually working way better than it really does. You are lousy at player evaluation, because you are preferring your personal belief over better information.

This reminds me of a great scene in the film Good Will Hunting. Here's the quote from Sean McGuire (Robin Williams)

"So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the Pope, sexual orientation, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. Seen that."

Statistics are great but they are not the end all that some posters would have you believe. Then again, neither is the eye test. However, the two combined outweigh either one on its own. I've been all over the world (Paris, London, Spain, Vietnam etc) and believe me, memorizing stats about a country vs seeing it with your own two eyes is not the same thing. Not even close. I'm not sure if you witnessed Moses in his prime or not but if you didn't then you're doing yourself a disservice by only using stats to justify your position. However, if you want to go on believing KG was better than Moses based on cherry picked stats than go for it. Makes no difference to me.

[mysticbb]

Your definition of relevant statistics is, whatever statistic you can pick out of the scrap heap to make KG sound better.

Why should I do that when my main argument is actually about the skills? Do you believe that I have a personal agenda here? Do you believe that I'm just a crazy Garnett fan?

An MVP is obviously a more important that DPOY or All-Defense teams.

It is? Why should that be? I tell you something: Either award is actually not important in order to determine the overall impact of a player. Iverson got the MVP award over O'Neal and Duncan just for one specific reason: He scored more points while taking a lot of more shots attempts while the main reason the 76ers won was the defense. Well, and Camby got the DPOY while not even being the best defender on his own team. Both awards are flawed, and I really don't care about the awards when evaluating players.

And for the 3rd or 4th time, I've admitted from the start that KG is the superior defender so you can stop the broken record act now.

So, why doesn't it reflect in your judgement here? Or in another way: By how many points do you think changed Garnett's superior defense the game result? Do you honestly believe that Malone scoring a few points more while being less of a distributor and more turnover-prone can overcome that difference to proclaim that Malone was clearly the superior player?

Uh...no? I'm saying I don't believe in judging a player like a checklist.

I'm not doing that either. But how does it feel to argue a strawman?

Just because a player is decent at two things doesn't mean he's better than a guy who was amazing at one thing.

I completely agree, and I said so in a previous post in this thread already. So, you are bringing something up to create a strawman, nothing else.

The matter of fact is that Garnett is way better as a defender and his superior playmaking ability equalized the offensive rebounding and therefore better scoring by Malone on the offensive end. Garnett isn't just better at specific skills, he is the better overall player due to his skills and the level of his skills.

I don't know what you're complaining about anyways, it's obvious that you've never seen a game of basketball in your life.

Interesting ...

[mysticbb]

"So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the Pope, sexual orientation, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. Seen that."

Unless the question is "how does it smell?", it is rather irrelevant to be at the Sistine Chapel. And even then, you might have been on drugs during your visit and your olfactory system wasn't working well. But in that case of a player comparison the "smell" of the player isn't the question at hand, but rather how good he played the game of basketball. To see that it is enough to watch games later via TV or computer screen, because the playing level will not change whether you were actually in the arena or not. And given my experience, I see more from the game when I actually watch it later on the screen than during my arena visit. Also, my video tool allows me to slow down the sequences or let me replay it as much as I like; my live experience doesn't do that.
So, what exactly is the advantage of "standing in the Sistine Chapel" when the question is actually "How big is the Sistine Chapel?" Will the height or width change based on my personal experience?

FYI: I was in the Sistine Chapel and to be quite honest: I can't remember how it smelled, but I assume it smelled like in most of the old churches and chapels I visited in the past and will likely visit in the future. And the fun fact, most people will not be able to remember that correctly, but they actually believe they can.

I've been all over the world (Paris, London, Spain, Vietnam etc) and believe me, memorizing stats about a country vs seeing it with your own two eyes is not the same thing.

No, it isn't, but that is also trivial. Just that being in a specific country doesn't give me an exact answer for how many people are living there, how the climate is in average or how the average income is. Looking up the stats on those topics are answering me that question. The same goes for basketball players. How aesthetical pleasing a player is doesn't really tell me how big of an impact he actually really made. Watching a player play, gives me a good idea about the skillset he possess and how he uses those skills within the context of a 5on5 game; how much difference that makes to the game result is actually better determined by using stats. If I have no idea, how the stats are generated, I obviously missing out on something, which can be crucial especially in cases where such stats like detailed +/- data isn't available.

I'm not sure if you witnessed Moses in his prime

Given the fact that I actually described how he played differently than Garnett, we may assume that I saw games where he was playing. And yes, I saw games with Moses Malone in his prime, but not even one live; mostly those games where he was at his best (a typical bias given the fact that worse performances usually are not something seen in "Classic Games" or basketball fans are uploading on Youtube (and yeah, there are full games uploaded as well).
I extensively watched games in 2011 before and during the RPOY project, because I didn't want to make a fool out of myself by proclaiming that players played differently. That's how I am; first get the best possible set of information, then form an opinion and then go write up stuff on an internet forum.

[Grandpa Waiters]

"So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the Pope, sexual orientation, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling. Seen that."

Unless the question is "how does it smell?", it is rather irrelevant to be at the Sistine Chapel. And even then, you might have been on drugs during your visit and your olfactory system wasn't working well. But in that case of a player comparison the "smell" of the player isn't the question at hand, but rather how good he played the game of basketball. To see that it is enough to watch games later via TV or computer screen, because the playing level will not change whether you were actually in the arena or not. And given my experience, I see more from the game when I actually watch it later on the screen than during my arena visit. Also, my video tool allows me to slow down the sequences or let me replay it as much as I like; my live experience doesn't do that.
So, what exactly is the advantage of "standing in the Sistine Chapel" when the question is actually "How big is the Sistine Chapel?" Will the height or width change based on my personal experience?

FYI: I was in the Sistine Chapel and to be quite honest: I can't remember how it smelled, but I assume it smelled like in most of the old churches and chapels I visited in the past and will likely visit in the future. And the fun fact, most people will not be able to remember that correctly, but they actually believe they can.

I've been all over the world (Paris, London, Spain, Vietnam etc) and believe me, memorizing stats about a country vs seeing it with your own two eyes is not the same thing.

No, it isn't, but that is also trivial. Just that being in a specific country doesn't give me an exact answer for how many people are living there, how the climate is in average or how the average income is. Looking up the stats on those topics are answering me that question. The same goes for basketball players. How aesthetical pleasing a player is doesn't really tell me how big of an impact he actually really made. Watching a player play, gives me a good idea about the skillset he possess and how he uses those skills within the context of a 5on5 game; how much difference that makes to the game result is actually better determined by using stats. If I have no idea, how the stats are generated, I obviously missing out on something, which can be crucial especially in cases where such stats like detailed +/- data isn't available.

I'm not sure if you witnessed Moses in his prime

Given the fact that I actually described how he played differently than Garnett, we may assume that I saw games where he was playing. And yes, I saw games with Moses Malone in his prime, but not even one live; mostly those games where he was at his best (a typical bias given the fact that worse performances usually are not something seen in "Classic Games" or basketball fans are uploading on Youtube (and yeah, there are full games uploaded as well).
I extensively watched games in 2011 before and during the RPOY project, because I didn't want to make a fool out of myself by proclaiming that players played differently. That's how I am; first get the best possible set of information, then form an opinion and then go write up stuff on an internet forum.

Like I said earlier, believe what you want, makes no difference to me.

[mysticbb]

Sure. ;)

[bastillon]

I am not going to respond to the posts from the last ~7 pages or so because they are - to me - a complete waste of my time. you guys need to understand that what you have said, not only had been said in the past, but also it has already been debunked. check out my posts from the beginning of this thread. I quoted tons of posts from various threads on realGM and they are responding to the point you have made. that's why to me you are wasting time with this discussion. it has been beaten to death how boxscore can be deceiving and why that is the case with Moses. there is nothing to discuss until you respond to the posts I quoted. bringing up PPG/RPG/MVP is not enough for a legitimate debate. we all know about those facts. we're not questioning nor denying whether Malone grabbed rebounds, scored points or whether he was given an MVP trophy. we're questioning his impact based on other concerns, to which you have not replied.

but the point that I'd like to make is this. why are Moses teams so mediocre in team rebounding? why is their team rebounding DRB% mediocre even with Charles Barkley playing next to Moses? this is something that came up during top100 Project, I believe it was Dr Mufasa who brought it up, and Moses supporters never even tried to answer that point. grabbing a lot of rebounds doesn't necessarily mean you are great rebounder in terms of impact. Nene was grabbing about 7 rebounds a game but his impact was great and has been proven time and time again. on the other hand there are guys like Jerry Lucas (grabbed 20 rpg in the 60s, most of them defensive rebounds) who are just inhaling rebounds like mad, but made little to no impact since they would still get beat up inside. with Moses, there are concerns to me, how his rebounding numbers, translated into team impact. I only made this point because I feel it hasn't been highlighted enough but it is a legitimate red flag nonetheless.

but the points from the posts I quoted are what you really need to reply to if you wanna be defending Moses.

[Brenice]

I want to know if you replace Kareem with any version of KG does KG lead the Lakers past Moses and Philly for the championship in 83?

And

If you replace Bynum with Moses in 08 can Moses lead the Lakers past KG and the Celtics?

[MacGill]

I want to know if you replace Kareem with any version of KG does KG lead the Lakers past Moses and Philly for the championship in 83?

And

If you replace Bynum with Moses in 08 can Moses lead the Lakers past KG and the Celtics?

The whole team dynamic changes Replacing either players means you may have in fact made other moves to better compliment. Who knows how well they would actually play because it never happened. I don't see what this is suppose to prove?

[Bar Fight]

I want to know if you replace Kareem with any version of KG does KG lead the Lakers past Moses and Philly for the championship in 83?

And

If you replace Bynum with Moses in 08 can Moses lead the Lakers past KG and the Celtics?

Well you'll be waiting a while. That's not something you can measure, thus it's completely pointless to discuss. It seems like mysticbb is the only one in the last few pages that's actually backing up their claims with tangible evidence.

[rrravenred]

Interesting to look at that.

1983 Lakers were 13th in the league by DRtg during the RS and in the bottom half of the playoffs teams.

Interestingly, the Lakers and Sixers were almost dead even in ORtg (108.0 to 108.1 the Lakers way) but had a big 6 point gap in DRtg.

Now Kareem had an excellent playoffs offensively against (as has been noted) an excellent one-on-one defender in Moses but got seriously spanked on the boards by his opponent. Does KG get the same monstering? Doubt it, personally. KG not being as competent a scorer absolutely needs to be taken into account, but worth considering if limiting the Sixers second chance points (almost 7 ORbs a game for Moses) could change the dynamic of the series...

[Brenice]

I want to know if you replace Kareem with any version of KG does KG lead the Lakers past Moses and Philly for the championship in 83?

And

If you replace Bynum with Moses in 08 can Moses lead the Lakers past KG and the Celtics?

Well you'll be waiting a while. That's not something you can measure, thus it's completely pointless to discuss. It seems like mysticbb is the only one in the last few pages that's actually backing up their claims with tangible evidence.

Just because you measure these stats don't make it accurate. There are too many variables. People want to play up KG's rebounding. Are you factoring in lane congestion compared to different eras? The different level of allowed physical play. How about the lack of big men. What is measured is not equal from quarter to quarter, game to game, possession to possession.

People want to calculate formulas but leave out common sense. You'd better balance the book smarts with the street smarts and add in some common sense.

[drza]

I want to know if you replace Kareem with any version of KG does KG lead the Lakers past Moses and Philly for the championship in 83?

And

If you replace Bynum with Moses in 08 can Moses lead the Lakers past KG and the Celtics?

Wait...your scenario is for KG to replace one of the best players of all-time, while Moses gets to replace a player that didn't even play?

So what you're asking is, would a KG for Kareem swap make as big of a positive impact on the '83 Lakers as just ADDING Moses to the '08 Lakers?

And you think this is a reasonable hypothetical?

[acrossthecourt]

Interesting to look at that.

1983 Lakers were 13th in the league by DRtg during the RS and in the bottom half of the playoffs teams.

Interestingly, the Lakers and Sixers were almost dead even in ORtg (108.0 to 108.1 the Lakers way) but had a big 6 point gap in DRtg.

Now Kareem had an excellent playoffs offensively against (as has been noted) an excellent one-on-one defender in Moses but got seriously spanked on the boards by his opponent. Does KG get the same monstering? Doubt it, personally. KG not being as competent a scorer absolutely needs to be taken into account, but worth considering if limiting the Sixers second chance points (almost 7 ORbs a game for Moses) could change the dynamic of the series...

Kareem was a weak rebounder at that point in his career. TRB% under 13, DRB% under 20. Those are poor rates for a center. Garnett is still posting elite DRB% rates even in his late 30's. I really don't think Garnett would be killed on the boards. Plus, they don't even play the same position....


I'm always open for argumentation and being swayed to another side. I just need some compelling evidence for Moses. Some indication he had a Shaq-like impact on the court, warping defensive attention. I haven't seen any of that yet. Awards are flawed -- I don't believe Rose is better than Wade, for example -- and box score stats can be misleading. Show me that Moses carried teams like a historic player.

And being condescending to people who didn't watch him live will make me want to trust your arguments even less.

[G35]

No, I would say he has a career high in DRB%, which is exactly what the data tells you.

Yes, that's what the data tells everyone, but you intimated that having a higher percentage automatically means better. Which if true means that Moses is clearly better or KG is having his best rebounding year ever. Everything else you said was just your opinion. KG may be better at transition defense but Moses is clearly better on the interior.

Garnett was quicker on his feet, had better lift, the longer arms and therefore overall better length as well as better hands. Moses Malone has the strength on his side, but not by that much given Garnett lower body strength, which is more important for the task at hand.

This is just wrong period. Out of all the big men I think KG has the WEAKEST lower body strength. He is skinny as hell and didn't get more bulk until the latter half of his career. You really can't logically think that KG has all this lower body strength and he can run all around the court while avoiding the paint. KG can't bang with Karl, Barkley, Moses, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Dirk. How is he having all this power in his legs and he's 7ft 220lbs? He was born to play for Boston cuz he's a bean pole.

I will give you that KG is athletically gifted for someone so tall and that would be great if we were comparing him to someone like Roy Hibbert, Bynum, or someone not as gifted. But Moses would push KG all around the court.

Did Moses Malone ever won a DPOY?

Does Moses Malone have 12 All-Defense team selections?

Did Moses Malone ever won the All-Star game MVP award?

I hope you see that we can find multiple arbitrary things for each player the other didn't accomplish.

1 MVP equals all those awards. 2 MVP's puts Moses ahead. 3 straight MVP's? It's a completer annihilation. KG How many players in the history of the game won 3 MVP's....I'll wait.....no I'll tell you Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Bill, Magic, Lebron, and Wilt. Those defensive team selections? NIce but they weren't all first team so less impressive. 1 DPOY? Ron Artest has one of those, so does Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, and Marc Gasol. For all of KG's defensive prowess that get's thrown around here he only has one DPOY...eight other players have multiple DPOY's and they don't nearly the amount of rhetoric that KG get's. You could put Mutumbo and Ben Wallace together and there would be posters here still arguing that KG has greater impact on defense.....

[Grandpa Waiters]

No, I would say he has a career high in DRB%, which is exactly what the data tells you.

Yes, that's what the data tells everyone, but you intimated that having a higher percentage automatically means better. Which if true means that Moses is clearly better or KG is having his best rebounding year ever. Everything else you said was just your opinion. KG may be better at transition defense but Moses is clearly better on the interior.

Garnett was quicker on his feet, had better lift, the longer arms and therefore overall better length as well as better hands. Moses Malone has the strength on his side, but not by that much given Garnett lower body strength, which is more important for the task at hand.

This is just wrong period. Out of all the big men I think KG has the WEAKEST lower body strength. He is skinny as hell and didn't get more bulk until the latter half of his career. You really can't logically think that KG has all this lower body strength and he can run all around the court while avoiding the paint. KG can't bang with Karl, Barkley, Moses, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Dirk. How is he having all this power in his legs and he's 7ft 220lbs? He was born to play for Boston cuz he's a bean pole.

I will give you that KG is athletically gifted for someone so tall and that would be great if we were comparing him to someone like Roy Hibbert, Bynum, or someone not as gifted. But Moses would push KG all around the court.

Did Moses Malone ever won a DPOY?

Does Moses Malone have 12 All-Defense team selections?

Did Moses Malone ever won the All-Star game MVP award?

I hope you see that we can find multiple arbitrary things for each player the other didn't accomplish.

1 MVP equals all those awards. 2 MVP's puts Moses ahead. 3 straight MVP's? It's a completer annihilation. KG How many players in the history of the game won 3 MVP's....I'll wait.....no I'll tell you Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Bill, Magic, Lebron, and Wilt. Those defensive team selections? NIce but they weren't all first team so less impressive. 1 DPOY? Ron Artest has one of those, so does Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, and Marc Gasol. For all of KG's defensive prowess that get's thrown around here he only has one DPOY...eight other players have multiple DPOY's and they don't nearly the amount of rhetoric that KG get's. You could put Mutumbo and Ben Wallace together and there would be posters here still arguing that KG has greater impact on defense.....

Also, one question nobody ever talks about when comparing the two players needs to be asked. Who was more inarticulate? Moses with his epic 'Fo 'Fo 'Fo quote prior to the '83 playoffs or Garnett's indecipherable "Anything is possible" rant after the '08 Finals....

[john248]

which ended up being fo fi fo

[G35]

Interesting to look at that.

1983 Lakers were 13th in the league by DRtg during the RS and in the bottom half of the playoffs teams.

Interestingly, the Lakers and Sixers were almost dead even in ORtg (108.0 to 108.1 the Lakers way) but had a big 6 point gap in DRtg.

Now Kareem had an excellent playoffs offensively against (as has been noted) an excellent one-on-one defender in Moses but got seriously spanked on the boards by his opponent. Does KG get the same monstering? Doubt it, personally. KG not being as competent a scorer absolutely needs to be taken into account, but worth considering if limiting the Sixers second chance points (almost 7 ORbs a game for Moses) could change the dynamic of the series...

Kareem was a weak rebounder at that point in his career. TRB% under 13, DRB% under 20. Those are poor rates for a center. Garnett is still posting elite DRB% rates even in his late 30's. I really don't think Garnett would be killed on the boards. Plus, they don't even play the same position....


I'm always open for argumentation and being swayed to another side. I just need some compelling evidence for Moses. Some indication he had a Shaq-like impact on the court, warping defensive attention. I haven't seen any of that yet. Awards are flawed -- I don't believe Rose is better than Wade, for example -- and box score stats can be misleading. Show me that Moses carried teams like a historic player.

And being condescending to people who didn't watch him live will make me want to trust your arguments even less.

KG is also posting:

6.9 ppg

6.8 reb

.421 FG%

PER of 12.9

TS% of .453

This is KG at 37 years old

Now if you believe everything that you hear about KG's defense you would think KG's lack of offensive firepower was ALWAYS balanced out by his DPOY defense EVERY YEAR/EVERY GAME.

But what happened to KG in the 2010 finals against another great PF, how did KG perform against Pau Gasol someone he owned just 2 years earlier. If you believe the narrative about KG's impact and defense there would be no way that a player like Pau would be able to dominate KG....BUT HE DID.

Pau: 18.6ppg, 11.6 reb, 3.7 ast, 2.6 blk, 122 ORtg, 101 DRtg, .556 TS%,
KG: 15.3ppg, 5.6 reb, 3.0 ast, 1.3 blk, 110 ORtg, 103 DRtg, .555 TS%

Pau dominated KG in every facet of the game....including on defense. He won on the offensive end and the defensive end. I know...I know...unbelievable since KG is such a beast on defense even this year!

An interesting factoid about that series and offensive rebounding:
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page ... daily-dime

The Lakers are repeat NBA champions because they outrebounded the Celtics 53-40 in Game 7 of the Finals. The combination of poor shooting and great boards-crashing gave Los Angeles a total of 23 offensive rebounds, the most by any team in a Finals game since the Bulls had 24 against the SuperSonics in winning the 1996 Finals in Game 6.

Pau Gasol collected nine offensive rebounds in Game 7, lifting his total to 35 during the series against Boston. That's the third-highest total of offensive rebounds in a Finals series since the NBA began recording offensive rebounds in the 1973-74 season; Moses Malone had 46 in six games in 1981 and Dennis Rodman had 41 in six games in 1996.

So you think that Moses couldn't tax KG when Pau broke KG in that series.......