RealGM Top 100 List #47

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#21 » by lukekarts » Mon Nov 3, 2014 5:06 pm

Willis Reed

Accolades

- 7 x NBA All Star
- 1 x League MVP
- 2 x Finals MVP
- 1 x All NBA 1st
- 4 x All NBA 2nd
- 1 x All Defensive 1st
- 2 x Championships.

He lead the league in Defensive Win Shares (1970) and Win Shares (1969) too, so the accolades were not ‘hollow’.

His career was cut a little short by injury (he retired at 31) but his prime was a good 7 seasons of 20/13.

In his peak couple of seasons he was posting a TS% of 56.2% and 55.2% - especially impressive for 1969/70.

1970's Finals

New York Knicks player stats:
- Willis Reed: 23 points / 10.5 rebounds
- Dave DeBusschere - 19 / 12.6
- Dick Barnett - 18.6 / 4.3
- Walt Frazier - 17.6 / 10.4 (which includes the inflated/false game 7 assist total)

In the game Reed missed entirely, Wilt scored 45 points and the Lakers won by over 20 points. Wilt averaged 19.3 ppg versus Reed for the rest of the series.

Beyond the boxscore, Willis was revered for his 'intangibles' (which have favoured some players in the poll so far, most recently Zo). He was a very tough character and put his body on the line. He was a highly regarded team-mate and one of the most respected players of his era.

Also, somewhat amusingly: http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/10/willis- ... kers-fight (some great footage here) - he didn't take any crap :lol:
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#22 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Nov 3, 2014 6:32 pm

Hmm… well that was weird. I was looking forward to the runoff between Allen and _____, even if Allen already had a good shot at winning. He's a unique player to look at, and I think a day of further discussion on him would've been interesting. Oh well, onto the next one.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#23 » by Owly » Mon Nov 3, 2014 7:05 pm

Some guys I'm thinking of based on the numbers Parish, Lanier, Dantley.

But for the discussion:
Best at position within decade/on the long list radar if multiple players close to one another (though this is largely off the top of my head, a player being mentioned here doesn't mean he's better than all those that aren't just that he's probably closer to being the best not yet on the board for his time and position)

50's
C Neil Johnston (elite stats peak, won a title fwiw, hard to know about D and some team failures but Macauley was probably a worse defender imo).
PF Gallatin or Mikkelsen: Hard to split off the top of my head
SF Arizin (great peak, but in pre-shot clock, if allowing for hypotheticals his total career output would have been better if not for military service)
SG Sharman (big fan of his, deadly shooter, elite conditioning, based on peers he was a good defender and tough guy, and if you take his coaching as evidence it seems he had a high BBIQ)
PG Cousy (more efficient than we now tend to think, at least he was more accurate than most other 50s pgs, playoff fall off in title years possibly a issue)

Sneaky under the radar guy: 6th man Frank Ramsey. Very efficient on the wing for the era anyway and some huge playoffs

60s
C: Bellamy (the numbers pick with a high stats peak; but issues on D, reputation as a loser); Thurmond (the defense pick, but inefficient on O, and suffered injuries); Reed (team success, not considered conventional MVP level and debatable whether he was best player on his team, but considered strong leader, defender and floor spacer; longevity a possible issue especially as PF years whilst good, aren't elite), maybe Beaty (underdog amongst this group, excellent ABA career)
PF: Howell (Lucas, Heinsohn, DeBusschere and Hawkins - if you put him at this position and this decade - all arguably in contention; but Howell quietly had the best numbers and - later - team success)
SF: Hagan (more consistent than Chet Walker and better than Twyman; has an amazing playoff peak and good career playoff numbers)
SG: Sam Jones (Greer is the only "name" guy as competition and looking at the metrics it is no competition; Greer stayed on court longer, but Jones was substantially better and so imo mooved the needle more despite the minute defecit)
PG: Wilkens (Guerin's peak slightly better but that was a one off, Wilkens was steady, smart etc and somehow once 2nd in MVP voting, though not 1st Team all-NBA. I've heard people argue for him as equivalent to and better than Jason Kidd. Still despite a name check here, not really on my radar).

70s
C: Lanier / Cowens (Doesn't quite have the peak of McAdoo, close enough and with a longevity edge. I know a some question his D based on team performance. Still I've heard positive things for some years at least. Cowens has big historical status with MVP, 2 titles. Metrics see nothing special. Aesthetically from the bits I've seen I like him, but hard to know what to think)
PF: Hayes (based on longevity and possibly D though hard to be confident how much impact he had. Negative intangiables aside he's a volume scorer who has five primarily 70s power forwards posting a better PER season, Haywood, McGinnis, Bob Kauffman, Wicks, Mickey Johnson, and Larry Kenon with a season equal. Okay not a perfect measure, and not always better by a large margin, but I think his peak is really low for this point in the discussion which limits the value of that longevity)
SF: Bobby Jones (Cunningham the bigger name, but position and decade debates aside, Jones rates awesome by the metrics, plays D, passes and doesn't make mistakes which makes him a superb fit for a good team)
SG: Bing (despite peaks being somewhat outliers, possibly due to injuries, he's the best combination of peak, which Westphal and Thompson also have, and more longevity based added value, where Monroe perhaps competes. I think Westphal would be my 2nd choice. Again Bing is not necessarily on my radar now though, a big drop off in that era after Gervin)
PG: Archibald (Easily. Monster peak. Career added value might be close if not accounting for the value of a high peak, for instance Calvin Murphy has slightly more career Win Shares, but it's hard to win a title by being just above average for a long time)

Okay ... Not got time to go through this in detail so quick glance for the rest

80s
Parish then Sikma
Nance (strong career numbers, arguably comparable to McHale)
probably Dantley, then maybe some version of English, Wilkins and Marques Johnson
Moncrief then I guess Walter Davis
Maurice Cheeks / Gus Williams

90s
Mutombo
Horace Grant/Kemp
Hill (then maybe Schrempf)
Hornacek, Richmond, Dumars in some order
KJ (then Porter, Price and T Hardaway then perhaps Strickland, though Penny and Brandon have huge peaks)

post 2000 more rough and ready here trying to rememeber who has gone and my database isn't super up to date (including career EWA-type numbers that are quite old)
Ming
Brand/Gasol/Bosh (/Love?) no real order. Amare? (not a fan, but crazy numbers for his peak)
Marion (Kirlenko? Peja?)
Ginobili (Roy?)
Billups (then Rose, Parker, Westbrook)

Might have missed people if I misremembered who's in. But there's somewhat of a longlist of candidates.


Anyway I'll vote Parish. Huge career added value. Underrated peak (though played somewhat limited minutes due to foul trouble) the numbers say he's way better than say a Hayes, though obviously as I've noted before the playoffs don't look so go.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#24 » by penbeast0 » Mon Nov 3, 2014 8:48 pm

you find Bailey Howell's numbers better than Lucas's? I know people call Lucas a stat padder but neither has a great defensive rep while Lucas seems to have the flashier numbers plus he is a stretch 4 while Howell was more of an undersized post scorer (though a very good one).

Oh, and Bing was more of a PG than a SG I think (don't think it's important to the discussion though).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#25 » by Owly » Mon Nov 3, 2014 9:54 pm

penbeast0 wrote:you find Bailey Howell's numbers better than Lucas's? I know people call Lucas a stat padder but neither has a great defensive rep while Lucas seems to have the flashier numbers plus he is a stretch 4 while Howell was more of an undersized post scorer (though a very good one).

Oh, and Bing was more of a PG than a SG I think (don't think it's important to the discussion though).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nced::none

Why not? And then factor in Howell didn't have the game's best pg. And his higher peak. Regarding Howell obviously hard to know on D, but based on the little bits you hear (high foul rate, the "dirty SOB" (on court) type description from contemporaries, mostly in Tall Tales I think, for what it's worth Bill Simmons' comp with Ron Artest) it seems like he was at least competitive. Meanwhile Lucas like he has little impact on with without stuff, and has a reputation as a stat chaser.

Bing, I did hesitate it assigning a position. Certainly the assists suggest pg. I don't know. But they would for say a Wade or a similar type of what you might call "lead-star guard". Put it this way, when he replaced Porter in Washington, from what I've read (mainly the Hollander yearbook), they questioned his playmaking. So I leant SG. But designations were still less rigid for much of his time. I'd be fine calling him either.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#26 » by penbeast0 » Mon Nov 3, 2014 11:23 pm

You sold me; Bailey Howell actually is slightly better on career stats. Good enough.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#27 » by Moonbeam » Tue Nov 4, 2014 5:08 am

More on Dantley. A big red flag is Dantley's WOWY scores, which are quite unflattering. In the case of Detroit, it is even suggested that his presence could have had a negative impact on his teams. I'm very interested in Elgee's WOWY metric, and it raises a legitimate concern about Dantley's offensive brilliance translating to team benefit.

I'll talk about the 1988 Piston team later, but for now I want to focus on the 1982-83 Jazz. Here is a spreadsheet I've put together of that season.

On a macro level, Utah finished 30-52, with an offensive rating of 101.2 (good for 20th in the league) and a defensive rating of 105.1 (good for 12th in the league). The offense was notably worse than in 1982 (and 1984), while the defense took a big step forward (up from 20th).

Image

Dantley missed 60 games that season after suffering a career-threatening wrist injury on December 17th against San Antonio. Dantley was having a brilliant season before he went down, with a TS north of 66% on 34.1 PP100 (good for the second highest Score+ of all-time, adding 6.7 points per 100 possessions over league average!), as well as a career high of 5.3 assists per 100 against 4.1 turnovers. And yet looking at raw SRS numbers, the Jazz with Dantley were -5.38 in SRS, while they were -3.80 without him!

So what gives? Looking at the spreadsheet, with Dantley, the Jazz enjoyed a TS of 0.5450 while it fell to 0.5260 without him. On the other hand, Utah's opponents had a TS of 0.5332 with Dantley but only 0.5133 without him, so the efficiency differential was virtually identical. Dantley was not the kind of player there to elevate the play of his teammates per se, as can be seen with a slight dip in teammate eFG% from 0.4792 without Dantley to 0.4718 with him, although the drop in teammate TS is more notable, from 0.5260 without Dantley to 0.5105 with him. The cause of this seems to be that Dantley was perhaps cannibalizing free throw attempts, as the free throw rates for his teammates fell from 0.3322 without Dantley to 0.2592 with him. Overall, however, team free throw rate was virtually identical with and without Dantley, and Dantley taking the lion's share of free throws was not a bad thing for the team, as he made nearly 85% of them. There is no noticeable change in assist rate with or without Dantley.

What jumps off the page is the rebound rate with Dantley was only 0.4403, such that the Jazz were being outrebounded by nearly 11 per game, while the rate improved to 0.4759 without Dantley to the tune of a rebounding deficit of less than 5 per game. That massive rebounding disparity meant that Utah had many fewer possessions than their opponents, so Utah's efficiency advantage was not enough to overcome having fewer possessions. So was Dantley part of a rebounding problem? It's hard to say - Utah was uniformly terrible with rebounding throughout his time in Utah (though it bottomed out in 1982-83), and continued to be very poor for two seasons following his departure. It might be worth looking into other seasons where he missed significant time (1980 and 1985) to get a better sense of things. We don't have turnover data for each game, but as a team, Utah took care of the ball better in 1982 and 1984, both of which were high-minute seasons for Dantley.

Another notable feature is the change in opponent TS. During the first 2 sets of 12 games, opponents had their highest efficiency. So does the decline after Dantley was out indicate that he was defensively porous? I think a lurking factor is Mark Eaton's role, and this would go unnoticed by the general WOWY concept (though Elgee's score seems to exclude games after the Schayes trade). Utah had relative success defensively, and I feel it's very largely due to Eaton. He would become DPOY a few seasons later, and while he only averaged 18.9 MPG as a rookie, it's pretty clear that his role increased as the season progressed. BBR has box score images, and I took a look at where Eaton was listed for Utah. I'm pretty sure that the starters are all listed first, as Eaton is listed as having started 32 games on BBR, and lo and behold, the last 32 games of the season (after the Schayes trade) have Eaton among the first 5. In the 12-game splits, you can see that Eaton's average true shot attempts increased quite a bit after Dantley went down. His average box score position also decreased, suggesting he was in the game earlier (and probably for more minutes on the whole). Judging by his TSA, Eaton was barely cracking the rotation when Dantley was playing, with 1.61 and 2.68 TSA. He then jumped to 4.6 TSA immediately after Dantley was injured. As a center, I don't think he was filling much of the Dantley minute vaccuum, but rather cannibalizing minutes from Utah's big men. Interestingly, his box score position (and TSA) reversed in the 4th 12-game set, and we see a bump in opponent TS as well. After the Schayes trade, it's clear that Eaton was getting a lot of minutes, and Utah's defense became downright stingy. Once John Drew came back from rehab for cocaine addiction (which further harpooned Utah's TS during his first 9 games), Utah's own TS took a notable jump, and they were more respectable over the last 34 games.

So what does this tell us? Well, Dantley's offense certainly seemed to be a big boon for Utah. Their TS was clearly higher with him on the court, despite backup John Drew's very rough first 9 games. Dantley's play didn't particularly elevate the play of his teammates, but it didn't look like it markedly hurt it, either. There is a curious rebounding hole that led to a notable possession deficit for which it's worth further exploration concerning Dantley's role. Utah's defense improved after Dantley went down, but I'm pretty sure that has much more to do with Eaton's emerging role on the team, and once Drew became a positive factor, Utah became an averagish team. In the following season, Dantley would return and Utah's offense took a large step forward, while the defense remained largely the same. So while on the surface, Dantley's raw WOWY does not look good for 1982-83, I think there are plenty of factors that could explain it aside from his absence.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Nov 4, 2014 6:12 am

Vote: Mutombo

Okay, well I'm still not sold in any direction so I'm sticking with my default so as not to get caught without a vote.

As stated before, the fact that he's arguably the post-Russell defensive GOAT earns him a lot of leeway for me. It wouldn't be enough to rate him over someone like Reed longevity being equal, but of course that isn't the case.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#29 » by trex_8063 » Tue Nov 4, 2014 6:42 am

Owly wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:you find Bailey Howell's numbers better than Lucas's? I know people call Lucas a stat padder but neither has a great defensive rep while Lucas seems to have the flashier numbers plus he is a stretch 4 while Howell was more of an undersized post scorer (though a very good one).

Oh, and Bing was more of a PG than a SG I think (don't think it's important to the discussion though).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nced::none

Why not? And then factor in Howell didn't have the game's best pg. And his higher peak. Regarding Howell obviously hard to know on D, but based on the little bits you hear (high foul rate, the "dirty SOB" (on court) type description from contemporaries, mostly in Tall Tales I think, for what it's worth Bill Simmons' comp with Ron Artest) it seems like he was at least competitive. Meanwhile Lucas like he has little impact on with without stuff, and has a reputation as a stat chaser.



And fwiw in a game I recently watched (G4 '67 EDF): Howell appeared to be competent and showing some degree of hustle defensively. Enough so that I was sort of impressed (part of that is expectation: I think I had it in my head that he wasn't much of a defender). It's just one game, but putting that out there......
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#30 » by Moonbeam » Tue Nov 4, 2014 11:46 am

I'll go ahead and cast my vote for Adrian Dantley. I could be swayed, but I'm pretty sure I'll take him over English and Wilkins, and I have enough lingering doubts about Mutombo, Gasol, Reed, Cowens and Parish that I don't feel it's an egregious vote.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#31 » by Moonbeam » Tue Nov 4, 2014 11:55 am

Very briefly:

Mutombo is my second favorite player ever, and he's nearing my radar. The only problem is that I felt he never was capable of the type of dominance that centers like Shaq or Hakeem were, or even quite on Alonzo's level. Still, he was an incredible defender for a long time, and a key cog to success for a number of teams.

Reed is someone who seemed mythical as a kid hearing the infamous 1970 Finals story, and looking at him now, I'm more impressed than I had remembered. Sure, his prime was short, but he seems to be a very good defender and a good offensive player, too. I think he's moved onto my short shortlist.

Cowens is another big name whose game seems to be centered around spirited, do-anything play. Not an efficient player, but effort all the way, and a worthy defender in his own right. I'd probably rank him just behind Mutombo.

Ginobili is a player whose style I loathed with what I considered incessant flopping, but there is no denying that he has had a big and underrated impact on those Spurs teams. I feel he has had the luxury of being in an outstanding situation with a coach who has managed his minutes expertly and a team who has been able to afford him additional rest as needed. The lower minute factor does reduce his overall impact slightly, but he's still a great player, and well worth considering soon.

KJ was dynamite and an awe-inspiring star when I was a kid, but he fizzled pretty quickly. I put him in the same vicinity as Penny Hardaway for that reason.

Gasol definitely should be getting a stronger look, I think. His Memphis days are unheralded in my eyes due to their postseason flameouts, but they only were in the postseason thanks to his great play, in my mind. His acquisition was monumental for the late 00s Lakers, and I feel he should have been co-MVP for the 2010 Finals.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#32 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 4, 2014 12:14 pm

If Ginobili is being considered, how about Bobby Jones? Same strengths (great court IQ, great efficiency, plus arguably the greatest defensive combo forward of all time), same weaknesses (limited minutes, much of career as 6th man).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#33 » by trex_8063 » Tue Nov 4, 2014 4:15 pm

My count thru post #32 (12 total votes, but no one with more than 2):

Alex English (2) - penbeast0, tsherkin

Dominique Wilkins (1) - JordansBulls

Tracy McGrady (2) - ronnymac2, E-Balla

Robert Parish (2) - trex_8063, Owly

Pau Gasol (1) - john248

Dikembe Mutombo (2) - Chuck Texas, Doctor MJ

Willis Reed (1) - lukeharts

Adrian Dantley (1) - Moonbeam
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#34 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Nov 4, 2014 7:56 pm

trex_8063 wrote:My count thru post #32 (12 total votes, but no one with more than 2):

Alex English (2) - penbeast0, tsherkin

Dominique Wilkins (1) - JordansBulls

Tracy McGrady (2) - ronnymac2, E-Balla

Robert Parish (2) - trex_8063, Owly

Pau Gasol (1) - john248

Dikembe Mutombo (2) - Chuck Texas, Doctor MJ

Willis Reed (1) - lukeharts

Adrian Dantley (1) - Moonbeam


I'll vote for Sam Jones again. I think he has more seasons as a main contributor to title teams than all of the above combined.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#35 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Nov 4, 2014 8:19 pm

So... drawing a blank here. Does anyone have a link to that (foreign?) site with box scores of NBA finals games going back to at least the 70s?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#36 » by ronnymac2 » Tue Nov 4, 2014 8:43 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:So... drawing a blank here. Does anyone have a link to that (foreign?) site with box scores of NBA finals games going back to at least the 70s?


http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1966.htm
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#37 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Nov 4, 2014 8:44 pm

Vote for #47 - Willis Reed

- 10 year career
- 5x all NBA (1 1st, 4 2nd)
- 1x all defensive 1st team
- 1x reg season MVP (2 other top 5 finishes)
- 2x finals MVP
- 2x NBA champion

RS prime (65-71)

20.1 PPG, 13.8 RPG, 1.8 APG, 47.7% FG, 74.8% FT, 52.5% TS, .158 WS/48

PS prime (67-73)

19.7 PPG, 11.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, 47.8% FG, 76.8% FT, 51.6% TS, .155 WS/48

On their way to the championship in 1970, willis helped the knicks knock off 2 of the most dominant centers of all time in wilt and kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against wilt in his later years. He would again get the best of wilt in 73 when the knicks took down the lakers in the finals.

I don’t have a problem with questioning his 2 finals MVPs relative to Clyde’s level of play in those series. However, I don’t doubt that reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP in both seasons. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the 70 finals:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyGNITggLFs[/youtube]

As the lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.

He was certainly deserving of winning reg season MVP in 1970, leading the knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7 FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS (+4.1% above league avg) and .227 WS/48.

From 69-73, reed would anchor a knicks defense that ranked in the top 3rd of the league for 4 seasons:

69 - 4th
70 - 1st
71 - 2nd
73 - 4th

The season after reed retired, the knicks dropped to 11th (of 18) in DRTG. His impact on that end of the floor was clear, as was the ability to lead a group of players to what’s often considered one of the best stretches of “team play” in NBA history.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#38 » by Owly » Tue Nov 4, 2014 10:31 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:Vote for #47 - Willis Reed

- 10 year career
- 5x all NBA (1 1st, 4 2nd)
- 1x all defensive 1st team
- 1x reg season MVP (2 other top 5 finishes)
- 2x finals MVP
- 2x NBA champion

RS prime (65-71)

20.1 PPG, 13.8 RPG, 1.8 APG, 47.7% FG, 74.8% FT, 52.5% TS, .158 WS/48

PS prime (67-73)

19.7 PPG, 11.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, 47.8% FG, 76.8% FT, 51.6% TS, .155 WS/48

On their way to the championship in 1970, willis helped the knicks knock off 2 of the most dominant centers of all time in wilt and kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against wilt in his later years. He would again get the best of wilt in 73 when the knicks took down the lakers in the finals.

I don’t have a problem with questioning his 2 finals MVPs relative to Clyde’s level of play in those series. However, I don’t doubt that reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP in both seasons. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the 70 finals:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyGNITggLFs[/youtube]

As the lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.

He was certainly deserving of winning reg season MVP in 1970, leading the knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7 FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS (+4.1% above league avg) and .227 WS/48

From 69-73, reed would anchor a knicks defense that ranked in the top 3rd of the league for 4 seasons:

69 - 4th
70 - 1st
71 - 2nd
73 - 4th

The season after reed retired, the knicks dropped to 11th (of 18) in DRTG. His impact on that end of the floor was clear, as was ability to lead a group of players to what’s often considered one of the best stretches of “team play” in NBA history.

I have concerns about Reed, so I'll put these, and some possible counter-arguments out there.

1) Is he another of those guys whose historical status is given a huge boost as the percieved star on champ (as I'd suggest Thomas, Hayes and Barry are. From this era one might argue Cowens too).

2) Longevity: Not just the 10 year career, but that he doesn't have too many seasons close to his peak performance. By the boxscore he's got a fairly clear two year peak ('69, '70); two very good years ('71, '68); one that might be at or near that standard ('67, horrible year for DWS but that might be short changing him); a good solid role player year ('73); and injury crippled version of same ('74); a hard-to-gauge inefficient volume scorer rookie year ('65); another injury crippled year ('72) and year the metrics suggest he was below average ('66).

Now admittedly at this point the bar above which seasons need to be to be majorly relevant will be dropping (you'd need a lot of "good" years to match the value of an MJ year), but still Reed has short longevity in absolute terms (8 proper seasons) and then perhaps too few of those are great (perhaps only two, then another two or three very good, then three lower ones as a role player or inefficent volume scorer).

Obviously this is without fully factoring in D (DWS tries in WS, PER can't for that era) or intangiables, including floor spacing from a center (though he wasn't always playing C on the Knicks).

Okay on to responding to the post. Hard to know how much is claimed in saying he "detered" Wilt and KAJ. But Wilt was coming back from a major knee injury that year and was already remodelling his game around being a defender rebounder and offensive role player. Then it's hard to know without full boxscores but it doesn't look like Kareem was to "deterred", on O at least. Then too "getting the better of Wilt" in '73. Sure he easily outscored him in lot less minutes. But even per minute he was clearly worse on the boards. IDK, you'd have to watch the games, and I may look at what books I have on finals series before I'd want to go comparing their series. In any case as a 30mpg player it limits your ability to make an impact. The one thing I will say just from '70 is with Wilt less mobile, Reed is a bad matchup for him, because Wilt doesn't want to come out a guard him.

I can buy serious positive intangiables (and things that weren't measured like D and spacing), but I'm not huge on weighing his 4 points as a really important thing in measuring a players greatness (maybe his D on Wilt would be more important, would have to look at that game and focus on that, it seems like he did a good job though as noted it wasn't full strength Wilt). I get that others will weight things differently though.

Regarding deserving of '70 MVP, he's a plausible candidate, but hardly a given. It's very possible that he wasn't the best player on the team. '69 might be better year for him.

Then regarding the defensive drop off, the season after Reed retired is also the season after DeBusschere retired. '74 (or '72) might be fairer bar for the drop off without him. Not least because the drop is not only in the standard of play at PF and C (DeBusschere and Reed replaced by John Gianelli, Phil Jackson and Harthorne Wingo) and in continuity but also in motivation (going from a recent champ to a .500 team).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#39 » by john248 » Wed Nov 5, 2014 12:36 am

I think Doc MJ mentioned nominations in the meta thread. Me thinks it'd be a good idea. 8 candidates with 12 votes so far.

Strategic voting on my part but I can switch mine to mcgrady to try and get one guy ahead.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #47 

Post#40 » by penbeast0 » Wed Nov 5, 2014 3:16 am

Tracy McGrady (3) - ronnymac2, E-Balla, john248

Robert Parish (2) - trex_8063, Owly

Dikembe Mutombo (2) - Chuck Texas, Doctor MJ

Willis Reed (2) - lukekarts, Clyde Frazier

Alex English (2) - penbeast0, tsherkin

Dominique Wilkins (1) - JordansBulls

Adrian Dantley (1) - Moonbeam

Sam Jones (1) DQuinn1575

Still no clear runoff emerging
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.

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