Blatche v. Beasley

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Id rather have Beasley. When I saw the youtube video of him desperately trying to get that triple double I immediately soured on him to the point I wouldn't trade DJ White for him. He is extremely selfish and you can't win with those guys.

He'd be a great wrestler or boxer though, maybe knife throwing.

And Beasley isn't selfish? That guy never looks for the open man, at all.

I wouldn't say Beasley is selfish, just that he has horrible court vision. Also he is a ball-stopper, he has a problem making decisions quickly when the ball is in his hands.

But he's not just out to get his.

[penbeast0]

Actually Blatche is a pretty good passes and ballhandler for a big. He's also more versatile than Beasley, able to play the 5 and even the 3 (though as he ages and gets slower and less flexible, that will disappear). Right now he's clearly a better player than Beasley. He just has maturity issues and even at 23, in his 5th year they are getting old.

[mopper8]

Penbeast, you know I love you, but I think in this situation you're way off.

Some things: when Blatche was in a similar situation to Beas (fighting with vets for minutes, not being featured in the offense), he struggled-- 9ppg, 5 rpg in 21 mpg pre-AS break. Those numbers are actually quite similar per-minute as to what Beas is putting up now, only he was doing that mainly against other teams' benches (whereas Beas is doing it as a starter), AND it's not like Blatche's teams were ever as a good as Beasley's Heat teams have been.

Blatche has 5 years under his belt, and I think when you consider that and his immaturity, that's a warning sign. You could argue that Blatche is "further along" than Beas at this point in time, but I have a hard time believing that 3 years from now, when Beas is a 5th year player, that he's going to be in a similar place mentally to where Blatche is now.

Lastly, I'm not even that concerned over Beasley's production. He's being asked to be a starter and 3rd option on a defensive-minded playoff team as a 21-year-old PF who's still filling into his body. And in that situation, he's putting up #s directly comparable to what Dirk did as a 21-year-old, 2nd yr PF:

Dirk per-36: 17.6 pts, 6.5 rbs, 46.1 fg%
Beas per-36 17.8 pts, 7.6 rbs, 44.8%fg%

We haven't seen Beasley put in Blatche's position (top-player on a very bad team), but we have seen Blatche in Beasley's position, and I think it's pretty clear who's done better there. That's Beasley w/o a doubt.

[penbeast0]

I didn't know you loved me . . . awwwww

But yes, the reason I posted this is because I have a lot of doubts about Blatche despite his production. Nate had posted a Griffin for Blatche trade which I was doubtful that the Clippers would do (and the posters here agreed) but I thought that Blatche's extra length and current productivity plus his smaller but equal length contract made it an interesting comparisom with Beasley who I see a lot living down here in Fort Lauderdale and who I also have my doubts as to whether he will ever live up to his potential (which Blatche, for all the doubts, seems to be finally doing now). Would I make this trade from either end? Not sure . . . but I'd certainly think about it in both directions.

Oh, and I'm far from sure that Blatche wasn't better in Beasley's position (as a part time player). Beasley's per 36 numbers the last two years show him at 7.7/1.5/18.9 with a TS% of .515 and lousy defense. Blatche's per 36 numbers the two years before this when he was playing similar minutes were 8.6/2.3/14.2 and a ts% of .510 with much better defense (2 blocks) . . . Beasley looks like the superior scorer (I expect Blatche to come back down into the mid teens for his prime as the team develops other scorers whereas Beasley is quite likely to be around 20ppg for his prime) but Blatche looked better in pretty much all other respects. Beasley has more of a chance to be a star but Blatche has more of a chance to be a good player. It depends how much you buy into this stretch for Blatche v. Beasley's time in college.

As for the comparisom to Dirk, there are a whole lot of 2nd year players with simlar numbers to those; few develop into MVP types and Dirk was drawing faves about his potential even in year two among Dallas fans; Beasley isn't getting that kind of love down here in South Florida. He reminds me more of Marcus Fizer (whose sudden disappearance surprised me then and still).

[mopper8]

I think its worth nothing that I do like Blatche a lot, have for years. Even picked him for 6MOY in the preseason when talking with my buddies (boy, was I off about that! I anticipated the Wiz season going a little different, to say the least). his length and versatility are attractive.

I'm just not nearly as down on Beasley as others are.

[yungal07]

We haven't seen Beasley put in Blatche's position (top-player on a very bad team), but we have seen Blatche in Beasley's position, and I think it's pretty clear who's done better there. That's Beasley w/o a doubt.

Blatche was never in Beasley's position -- what are you talking about? Blatche has been a 7th man pretty much his entire career before this year. He never had the chance to start with a player like Wade spoon-feeding him easy baskets. And Beasley wouldn't be able to be a first-option player because he's neither a good go-to player nor passer. Blatche can handle a double-team and will more than likely make you pay for doubling him.

Anyway, this discussion is going to go nowhere. Although Blatche is pretty much superior in every aspect, Heat fans will bring up the "good player on a bad team" argument, which is usually the copout excuse in a case like this.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

He never had the chance to start with a player like Wade spoon-feeding him easy baskets.

I love Wade as a passer, but you must rarely watch Heat games if this is how you envision his relationship with Beasley. Their chemistry sucks, and while some of that is Beas's fault, a lot of the blame goes to Wade and his inability to trust the kid.

Anyway, this discussion is going to go nowhere. Although Blatche is pretty much superior in every aspect, Heat fans will bring up the "good player on a bad team" argument, which is usually the copout excuse in a case like this.

Wait what? Blatche has been nothing but a disappointment for 4 and a half years of his professional career, he has a good couple months, and all of a sudden he is above comparisons like this?

More like, some Wizards fans are extra defensive when it concerns Blatche because he is about the only bright spot left on their roster.

[mopper8]

We haven't seen Beasley put in Blatche's position (top-player on a very bad team), but we have seen Blatche in Beasley's position, and I think it's pretty clear who's done better there. That's Beasley w/o a doubt.

Blatche was never in Beasley's position -- what are you talking about? Blatche has been a 7th man pretty much his entire career before this year. He never had the chance to start with a player like Wade spoon-feeding him easy baskets. And Beasley wouldn't be able to be a first-option player because he's neither a good go-to player nor passer. Blatche can handle a double-team and will more than likely make you pay for doubling him.

Anyway, this discussion is going to go nowhere. Although Blatche is pretty much superior in every aspect, Heat fans will bring up the "good player on a bad team" argument, which is usually the copout excuse in a case like this.

Im pretty sure I made it quite clear what I was talking about: Beasley's "position" is as someone fighting with a vet for minutes at his position (Udonis Haslem for Beasley, Jamison for Blatche), not being featured in the offense.

But, if you want to talk about play as a "7th man" or whatever, you can look at Beasley's rookie year, where he came off the bench and as 19/20 year old rookie still had a better year than Blatche has ever had prior to the AS break this year. I mean, really, I can't believe you're even debating this.

And if you think Wade "spoon feeds" Beasley easy baskets, I don't think you watch much Heat basketball.

The reason Heat fans will always bring up the "good player on a bad team argument" is precisely BECAUSE ITS TRUE.

Beasley has never had the chance to be featured on a bad team. Blatche has. Blatche, in his 5th year, has shined in that role (to the extent you can shine on as an immature star on a bad team). Good for him.

They both have played in bench roles and/or supporting roles on a vet-laden teams. In that comparison, Beasley has handily outdone anything Blatche has, at a much younger age and with much less experience.

I don't see what's so difficult about this. Of course you want to emphasize Blatche's post AS-game surge, and ok, that's your prerogrative, but its completely disingenuous to completely ignore everything up until Feb of this year. Especially when Beasley's situation for at least half of his short career is directly comparable to what Blatche was dealing with up until Jamison was traded.

[Blame Rasho]

The fact that there is real discussion about this is really favorable to Blatche and ehh... towards Beasley.

[penbeast0]

They both have played in bench roles and/or supporting roles on a vet-laden teams. In that comparison, Beasley has handily outdone anything Blatche has, at a much younger age and with much less experience.

I don't see what's so difficult about this. Of course you want to emphasize Blatche's post AS-game surge, and ok, that's your prerogrative, but its completely disingenuous to completely ignore everything up until Feb of this year. Especially when Beasley's situation for at least half of his short career is directly comparable to what Blatche was dealing with up until Jamison was traded.

To repeat myself -- In similar situations (playing for 2 years about 20 mpg) the numbers are similar:

Beasley's per 36 (2009/2010) 7.7/1.5/18.9 with a TS% of .515 and 0.7 blocks.
Blatche's per 36 (2008/2009) 8.6/2.3/14.2 with a TS% of .510 and 2.0 blocks.

Beasley in that role was the better scorer, Blatche was better at everything else (including man defense); Blatche was a year older at the time (2 years older now).

[mopper8]

They both have played in bench roles and/or supporting roles on a vet-laden teams. In that comparison, Beasley has handily outdone anything Blatche has, at a much younger age and with much less experience.

I don't see what's so difficult about this. Of course you want to emphasize Blatche's post AS-game surge, and ok, that's your prerogrative, but its completely disingenuous to completely ignore everything up until Feb of this year. Especially when Beasley's situation for at least half of his short career is directly comparable to what Blatche was dealing with up until Jamison was traded.

To repeat myself -- In similar situations (playing for 2 years about 20 mpg) the numbers are similar:

Beasley's per 36 (2009/2010) 7.7/1.5/18.9 with a TS% of .515 and 0.7 blocks.
Blatche's per 36 (2008/2009) 8.6/2.3/14.2 with a TS% of .510 and 2.0 blocks.

Beasley in that role was the better scorer, Blatche was better at everything else (including man defense); Blatche was a year older at the time (2 years older now).

Yeah, that's kinda my point...in similar situations, the #s are very similar, only Beasley has done it on winning teams, at a younger age and with fewer years experience in the league...I think the nod has to go to Beasley on that.

Blatche has a 3 month stretch that we have nothing to compare with for Beasley, and he looks great in it, and so I can understand why some Wizards fans want to focus on that. But my only point is, there was nothing in Blatche's play prior to Feb this year that suggested a huge breakout for him that isn't there in Beasley's play as well. That's all. I don't think that's a homerish thing to say.

I, personally, would rather keep Beasley. I can understand why others would want Blatche. But I dont think its fair or rigorous or honest to focus solely on the last 3 months, and looking prior to that, the picture is a lot less clear.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

what was blatche doing when he was a role player playin next to jamison, caron, haywood?

im sure if the Heat traded wade/jo/haslem and featured Beasley. the Heat would be awful but Beasley would get his numbers.

I havent seen Blatche enough so i wont say whos better, just saying put numbers in perspective.


Our offense is built around D. Wade and JO in the post.

15/6 for Beasley is pretty good when u see hes doing it on a winning team and more as role player.

[some_rand]

Also, there is NO way I'd swap Beasley for Blatche, for a couple of simple reasons. First, Blatche is going to get paid, soon. Why swap cheap labor for an expensive player when 2010 is already going to cost you a ton of money?

Blatche's contract lasts until 2012. He will be paid an average of $3.35M over those two years.
Beasley's contract lasts until 2012. He will be paid an average of $5.6M over those two years.

this, blatche is locked into one of the best contracts in basketball right now

[penbeast0]

Mopper, you know I may not love you but I honor and respect your opinion however . . . you weren't saying the numbers were close, you said Beasley had "handily outdone" anything Blatche had put up in a similar role . . . which just isn't true. I'd rather have a role player with Blatche's 08 and 09 numbers than one with Beasley's 09 and 10 numbers . . . easily. Beasley isn't efficient enough yet to make his extra scoring as valuable as Blatche's superior rebounding, passing, and shotblocking (even ignoring defense).

Note that this is a different question than who has more potential in the future...

[mopper8]

Mopper, you know I may not love you but I honor and respect your opinion however . . . you weren't saying the numbers were close, you said Beasley had "handily outdone" anything Blatche had put up in a similar role . . . which just isn't true. I'd rather have a role player with Blatche's 08 and 09 numbers than one with Beasley's 09 and 10 numbers . . . easily. Beasley isn't efficient enough yet to make his extra scoring as valuable as Blatche's superior rebounding, passing, and shotblocking (even ignoring defense).

Note that this is a different question than who has more potential in the future...

Well, maybe I got a little out of hand and that's fair to point out...my main point is that the similar numbers are coming on a much better team for one of the players. You might like Blatche's #s slightly better, but Beasley has been doing it on what are (to my mind) superior teams. The last time the Wiz were comparable to the level of the Heat would be (at best) 07-08, when Blatche was 21, got only 20 mpg, and put up 7.5 pts and 5rbs per. That's kinda way I thought "handily"...I took it as a given that, stats and age roughly similar, the edge goes to the player on the superior team...fair enough though if you don't agree.

edit: another way of thinking about this is, would anyone have really considered starting this thread before Jamison and Butler were traded? I don't think it would be controversial to say that up until Feb of this year, Michael Beasley had the superior career under his belt. Maybe you don't agree, or that it's not germane to the discussion...but I kinda think prior to the last 2 months, it wouldn't have been much of a debate at all. And I say that as someone who has followed Blatche's career and always liked him as a player.

The reason I think it's germane to the discussion is that its hard to judge two players in such obviously different situations, yes? The ability to guess how Beasley would or would not flourish is just as hampered right now as it was to guess how Blatche would do on his own two months ago. Right?

I mean, right now, sure, Wade draws a lot of attention and such, but also, the guy does not get plays run for him, and that's not an exaggeration. We don't have a package for him, really. If he were our feature guy, we'd have all sorts of action to get him into his favorite spots with a live dribble, but as is we run most of our offense either through Wade pnrs, JO post-ups, Wade/Q-Rich isos in the post, Wade off-the-ball action, screen action with Arroyo and Dorell Wright, etc etc. Beas gets some ISO plays or games out as a 3rd option running through a set and such, but its not like we come down and run one from a package of plays for him ever. He could be much more effective if we did (theoretically)

[dlts20]

what are you people talking about? Blatche was in Beasley's position? Dude, Jamison is an All Star who can get 20 & 10 while most think that Wood is one of the best Centers in the league. Beasley only has Haslem and Miami has never even really had a good player at the 3 which is his secondary position. Thats not the same spot at all. You think Beasley wouldve played so much with our coaches behind Jamsion & Butler? You talk about fighting for minutes but its not even a fight. Everyone will always give it to Caron & AJ because there names are established.

More importantly, just do the eye test. Dont give me that crap about numbers. Just watch the guys play. There is no way in hell that anyone can think Beasley is as good. Its a mismatch really. Beasley has some talent but he's just too undersized and his game isnt defined enough. He actually is lucky that he's a lefty which is a huge advantage in sports. If he wasnt that then he would be in serious trouble. If Blatche was a lefty then you wouldnt be able to stop him