ATFL Eastern: (1) RSCD3_ vs. (8) Bruh Man

[MisterHibachi]

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron and LeBron produced one of his greatest seasons ever; this is Yao and McHale, infinitely more talented offensively than Big Z and Varejao. Spacing won't be Miami-like, but I don't think it'll be as great a problem for RSCD3_ as most people think, especially with Peja on the floor; his offense will be very deadly. Bruh Man's defense, however, seems to be a wet dream for a Thibs style defense and they are designed to lock down perimeter players. As Doctor MJ said, this is very very tough.

[whitehops]

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron

to be fair, big Z started every game he played that year (65) but Wallace actually started more than varejao (53 to 42). varejao played every game except one while big ben played 56 and didn't start three of those games.


i'm being anal but it further proves your point, the cavs had little frontcourt spacing that year (although big Z could hit that midrange shot)

[Doctor MJ]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

[HeartBreakKid]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

Bird-Mchale-Parish were also a lot more talented than most teams. There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron and LeBron produced one of his greatest seasons ever; this is Yao and McHale, infinitely more talented offensively than Big Z and Varejao. Spacing won't be Miami-like, but I don't think it'll be as great a problem for RSCD3_ as most people think, especially with Peja on the floor; his offense will be very deadly. Bruh Man's defense, however, seems to be a wet dream for a Thibs style defense and they are designed to lock down perimeter players. As Doctor MJ said, this is very very tough. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299929&start=30#sthash.RyAAshrZ.dpuf

Part of the reason why that team was called Lebron James and the Cavs. That's just a testament to Lebron James', that doesn't actually challenge that the two isolation scoring bigs are not being optimized in this offense.

[Quotatious]

There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Huh? Look at my bench guys. Other people have Bowen, Battier or Korver, too.

[HeartBreakKid]

There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Huh? Look at my bench guys. Other people have Bowen, Battier or Korver, too.

Your top 8 players were all all-stars, not exactly disproving my point when you have someone like Chris Mullin on your bench.

Bowen and Battier are all NBA level defenders, so yes they are considered roleplayers in real life, but that doesn't really fairly say what their actual value is on the court. They are technically reduced to playing a role, but hell, so are players like Tony Parker, Ben Wallace and Ray Allen.

Also, all of those players are considered bench players in our league. So don't be smart with me.

[ardee]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

The point is that his drive and kick game may be a little hard with the Yao-McHale frontline because like it or not the spacing is bad on that.

However I don't see much of a need for the drive and kick anyway. Miami LeBron, at least the best versions, plays more as a real forward anyway, none of his Cleveland PG moves with the PnR with Varejao they used to run for seventy kajillion plays in a row. He posts up, he spots up, he creates off the dribble, he's much more varied in his style of play. He doesn't need to rely on the drive and kick to create for his team-mates. As long as there's decent movement and off-ball screens being set he'll find the open man.

[TMACFORMVP]

Again, I’m sorry for the late(?) votes, but couldn’t do it till now, and haven't read all the posts besides the ones by the GM/owner of these teams. I’m just gonna write out loud my thoughts on the matchup, and hope to come to a conclusion, because…

My god….this is insanely tough.

When I saw this team originally, I had really hoped that RSCD3 would start Bron at PG. I was a bit disappointed to see Iverson as the starter, but the minute rotation essentially works out the same way. I really like playing LeBron with shooters like Peja/EJ. However, I think in terms of rotation, I actually think having LeBron play backup 4 minutes and just playing with another shooter woulda been even more deadly for stretches. I also think RSCD3 is using his bench too much. The idea of a playoff series going with shortened rotations is because you want your best players playing the most minutes. I’m not sure how much place there is for a guy like Cousins in a game like this (so far at least), let alone getting minutes. I’m also not sure how I feel about two primarily more inside players crowding the frontcourt with Bron. I think LeBron as the hub with shooters and finishers is a recipe that yields as good offensive production or impact as any player in NBA history. And make no mistake; Bron is the best player in this series by a noticeable margin.

But man, Bruh Man’s team is EQUIPPED to stop that hub. Bron will still do his thing, but it’s like the Pacers, except make George even better defensively, and oh yeah, throw in an all-time great KG in the mix too. Bron’s two biggest challenges in the East have probably been the Celtics, and now the Pacers. Defensively, Bruh Man’s team is like the strength of both those teams COMBINED with another all-time great perimeter defender in JKidd. Though I guess I’m not saying much because that defense is equipped to guard everyone.
Though I’d like to note, I actually think Yao performed better v. traditional big man centers rather than smaller ones that could bother him with quickness and fronting.

I’m still trying to find a gripe with Bruh Man’s team though. Offensively, it lacks that mega star to take over, but Miller fits beautifully, and I really like Richmond and Hardaway’s roles off the bench. KG/Pippen could also fill in and were great passers. I think the ball movement would be great, and if they could control the boards – get out and run some too. Haven’t looked at the order, but I’d think to think there were better options than Nene off the bench.

I really want to pick RSDC3’s team because of LeBron. And because it has a couple good three point shooters, and mega efficient inside big man, with albeit mid-range to their game (though idc what the stats say about Yao’s mid-range, it wasn’t very good, IMO. I think he had a better % than it seemed because he had a couple shots that good be construed as mid-range when he fades away off the post, but that’s different than a stand-alone mid-range jumper). Sorry, I’m just ranting at this point, but the offensive potential of this team in a playoff series is scary with superb efficiency.

But because the paint get s a little congested, which limits LeBron already, I really have to question Iverson’s role on the team. I can buy LeBron with two non-space, but highly efficient great finishers (though it’s a bit different than the Cavs, because guys like Varejao/Wallace were just always in position to try to grab offensive boards and gain extra possessions, while Yao/McHale were more or less guys you threw the ball into for a score…and neither are particularly great offensive rebounders). But I think the addition of Iverson makes it tougher. I mean…I hate to pile on Iverson. I think people do that enough and don’t appreciate some of the positives he brought to the game. But in an all-time game perspective or matchup, the name of the game is maximizing possessions, and Iverson simply doesn’t do that – especially when he might be used in a role that’s more off the ball (because you want the ball and decision making to be ideally be in LeBron’s hands).
So I guess I see a flaw or two (or slight nitpicks is probably more appropriate) in RSCD3’s team. And I think Bruh Man’s team is equipped to bring out those “nitpicks” even more with their personnel. I think they can slow down Bron enough, and have enough execution/firepower on their own side as the slight tilt in this series.

I guess if I have to vote….ugh….I’ll go…both of them. No? Damn, umm…

Vote: Bruh Man

*now runs away from the computer to get my head outta this matchup.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

Bird-Mchale-Parish were also a lot more talented than most teams. There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Yeah, but it's not like people watched that trio and said "That's ugly basketball, but they are just too talented to lose." They worked gorgeously together, which meant that their fit was at least adequate.

[Doctor MJ]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

The point is that his drive and kick game may be a little hard with the Yao-McHale frontline because like it or not the spacing is bad on that.

Right but the implication of that given what I've just said is that a great point guard would be a bad fit with McHale & Yao. That simply cannot be the case.

I'm not saying that there can't ever be a clogging issue on a possession, but I think a sanity check needs to come into play when people in a tournament like this seem petrified of issues that always occur in every game no matter who the team.

However I don't see much of a need for the drive and kick anyway. Miami LeBron, at least the best versions, plays more as a real forward anyway, none of his Cleveland PG moves with the PnR with Varejao they used to run for seventy kajillion plays in a row. He posts up, he spots up, he creates off the dribble, he's much more varied in his style of play. He doesn't need to rely on the drive and kick to create for his team-mates. As long as there's decent movement and off-ball screens being set he'll find the open man.

Oddly I'm actually less comfortable with that. LeBron posts up more because it just make sense given his roster, but why would you have him do that when you've got two world class bigs in there? I think the ideal way for LeBron to play on this team is something different than either what we saw in Cleveland or Miami. He'll have to work the perimeter like Cleveland but pass like in Miami.

[O_6]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP: Bruh Man
penbeast0
ronnymac2: RSCD3_
Doctor MJ
SideshowBob: Bruh Man
Texas Chuck: Bruh Man
therealbig3: Bruh Man

4-1 lead for Bruh Man, one vote away from icing it with 3 judges left to vote

[bastillon]

I'll seal the deal then. Vote: Bruhman.

my reasoning would be pretty much what SideShow Bob said. that defense is terrifying. if you wanted to build a team to stop RSCD, if you already knew before the draft who you're playing against, you would pick those players. contrary to most of you I don't think LeBron gets his in this matchup. I think he gets destroyed. they are made to harass LeBron. he would basically be forced completely out of the paint with those 7 footers behind Pippen, and he'd turn the ball over tons of times as we had seen previously when he was facing the Celtics at their best.

RSCD has a great offense though and I definitely agree with Doctor MJ here. spacing is not that much of an issue. I see McHale as working perfectly with LeBron in the pick and roll game. Yao has a good 15 footer, certainly poses a hell lot more of a threat than a guy like Ben Wallace. also, Kevin Garnett cannot stop McHale 1 on 1. KG is a great defender but lets not be ridiculous here. I don't think you've seen McHale play if you think KG can shut him down 1 on 1. to me letting McHale play 1 on 1 would be a bad idea in the first place. with THAT team defense and length you wanna let the guy play 1 on 1 in the post? I'd front McHale and make sure he doesn't even get the ball in the first place. I think fronting would be extremely succesful with that roster because everybody can recover very quickly and you wouldn't even worry that much about mismatches because of their defensive versatility. also, Yao Ming, especially early in his career, was a bad passer (not just average or mediocre - he was bad) and as such he poses no high low threat whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. so to me the key to stopping McHale in this matchup is fronting. McHale wouldn't even get a catch with that much length inside. oh and even if you wanted to guard McHale 1 on 1, the better choice would be to put Hibbert on him and make KG play help defense roaming off of Yao. Garnett's help defense is by far his most valuable talent. when I think of KG, I think of his rotations/pnr D/ability to recover and contest. putting Garnett 1 on 1 vs McHale would be a waste of his talents. so to me this would be a huge coaching decision if you let McHale go at him 1 vs 1. KG would limit his touches and contest those shots but you can't block'em (McHale seems to have a 8 foot wingspan whenever I watch him) but no way he could stop him. not McHale.

as far as Bruh Man's offense, I think Reggie is being underrated here. his Pacers were one of the best playoff offenses ever and it was because of Miller's improvement come playoff time. with elite passing on the team and absurdly dominant off-ball screening (KG/Hibbert) Reggie would be having a field day on that roster. to me he's also BY FAR the best offensive player of Bruh Man's team. clearly better than Kevin Garnett in my mind (just offensively). Reggie Miller is an elite offensive player. when you consistently put up 25 ppg against Pat Riley's Knicks, you're the man.

I think RSCD has built a great team, I disagree with ya'll about their supposed issues with spacing. they would be destroying other teams offensively. LeBron and McHale is frightening offensively, especially with Jones/Peja shooting. they are a dominant offensive team.

but not against those dudes. this defense is as stacked as it gets. everybody is mentioning Prince coming off the bench but Reggie was a very good defender in his prime. yeah, he could get outmuscled in the post etc. but he was very quick in rotations and was great against guys who weren't very physical. I think he'd also trash the crap out of Peja, making him distracted and confused. I think Reggie could actually be a Peja stopper considering the mental makeup of the two and their talents. and the rest of of those dudes was beautifully described by SideShow. that is a defense made for stopping LeBron James. I don't think he'd just struggle, I think it would be a miserable series of him. he isn't getting anywhere near the paint with that defense. I think lack of ballhandling wouldn't help and KG and co would force a crapload of TOs. and when they force turnovers, they can score off of them... which is scary.

in the end, both teams are very strong but matchups are favoring Bruh Man's team too much.

[MisterHibachi]

Bruh Man moves on. I would still like to hear penbeast0's opinions on this match up, and Doctor MJ's vote, but I think we can start on the 2-7 match ups now.

[RSCD3_]

Well thanks for reading guys, this was my first draft of any kind and ive already learned a lot about the importance of fit and next time i wont miss the chance of drafting reggie with lebron if I can draft lebron gain. I think this is the Bill Gates version of the detroit pistons and I ran into a tough match up here. I'll stick around and discuss in the other match up's vehemently seeking to destroy bruhman's team with argument lol but seriously nice project, I feel like my basketball knowlegde and iq has improved because of these discussions.

So to quote seinfeld [youtube] http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDWU2SR27g4[/youtube]

"I'm out"



Sent from my SCH-I800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[john248]

Congrats to both GMs!

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

[Doctor MJ]

As I unsticky the topic I'll give my vote to RSCD3_. At the very least, this deserves to go down as a close one.

[Bruh Man]

Well thanks for reading guys, this was my first draft of any kind and ive already learned a lot about the importance of fit and next time i wont miss the chance of drafting reggie with lebron if I can draft lebron gain. I think this is the Bill Gates version of the detroit pistons and I ran into a tough match up here. I'll stick around and discuss in the other match up's vehemently seeking to destroy bruhman's team with argument lol but seriously nice project, I feel like my basketball knowlegde and iq has improved because of these discussions.

So to quote seinfeld [youtube] http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDWU2SR27g4[/youtube]

"I'm out"



Sent from my SCH-I800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Good game RSCD3, I like the front court you built Yao, Mchale, Lebron is a huge and skillfull frontcourt.