2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Dutchball97]

Who could have predicted that Jokic and the Nuggets might come back in this series? Shocking developments. Just shocking.

I, for one, never doubted it

[tsherkin]

I don't think it makes sense to give Gobert too much crap here. Look at the highlights. Watch what Jokic was hitting with good contest after good contest. He was just murdering the man, and there's nothing else he could have done.

[sp6r=underrated]

The team that wins the first 2 games of a series is 421-33. Only 5 times has a team come back to win a series after losing the first 2 at home. History overwhelmingly said the Nuggets were in terrible shape.

I was super wrong lol.

I still think the tenor of the takes was largely hot takey, but if I ignore that, then my apologies to all.

to be fair, I didn't realize it was that lopsided either. Probably because as knicks fan the most painful series of my life was the knicks-bulls ECF. And I also remember the Fisher shot too. So the data did surprise me I would have guessed 75-80%.

But if you give me two evenly matched and spot one team HCA with a spare game, I'm going to heavily favor that team.

[sp6r=underrated]

I don't think it makes sense to give Gobert too much crap here. Look at the highlights. Watch what Jokic was hitting with good contest after good contest. He was just murdering the man, and there's nothing else he could have done.

Gobert has had some series where he had real issues staying on the court. But as you said that wasn't the issue last night. In the pivitol 3Q, Gobert forced Jokic into some brutal shots and Jokic just kept nailing all of em. Just a GOAT level player going off.

[tsherkin]

I don't think it makes sense to give Gobert too much crap here. Look at the highlights. Watch what Jokic was hitting with good contest after good contest. He was just murdering the man, and there's nothing else he could have done.

Gobert has had some series where he had real issues staying on the court. But as you said that wasn't the issue last night. In the pivitol 3Q, Gobert forced Jokic into some brutal shots and Jokic just kept nailing all of em. Just a GOAT level player going off.

Exactly. Rudy isn't a perfect player, but giving him grief for last night would be like griefing someone for when Jordan just started hitting every contested jumper in the universe on "one of THOSE nights."

[Special_Puppy]

Eh, typically teams that fall down 0-2, losing the first 2 are home are done. That the Nuggets were getting obituaries wasn't the typical Realgm extreme over-reaction.

And if you told me how bad Murray would be Games 3-5, I would have completely written them off.

Of course it was. It's far from unprecedented for a team to lose the first two games at home and come back in a series.

The team that wins the first 2 games of a series is 421-33. Only 5 times has a team come back to win a series after losing the first 2 at home. History overwhelmingly said the Nuggets were in terrible shape.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/statistics/playoff_series_2_0_recovered.htm
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/nuggets-aiming-to-be-sixth-team-to-come-back-to-win-a-playoff-series-where-they-lost-the-first-2-games-on-their-home-court/

I get people want to be first. They really really want to be first. So they jump at any signs of something.

Through the first 7 games of the playoffs.

1. Nuggets were losing by an average of 3 ppg.
2. Their opponents had led for 233 minutes of basketball. The Nuggets had led for 81 minutes of basketball.
3. Their number 2 offensive talent was, and still is playing like trash.
4. In the RS, the Wolves had an almost identical record.
5. The defending champs who've fallen down 0-2 this century have lost (2011 Lakers, 2012 Mavericks, 2017 Cavs, 2008 Spurs, 03 Lakers, 00 Spurs). You have to go back to 95 to fine a champion who did come back from 0-2.

If it was an over-reaction to say the Nuggets were in terrible shape we should just lock this thread until the playoffs are over or limit it to 1-8 series.

I was even told in order to say Jokic was still a great player I had to tell them exactly what Jokic would accomplish in the playoffs the next 5 years lol.

That was stupid but that was much more haters that come out against any player rather than series analysis.

Another major thing that fueled Nuggets pessimism is that Wolves absolutely *obliterated* the Suns (who were betting market favorites coming into the series!)

[parsnips33]

I'm not a Gobert guy, and there's real issues you can have about his offense, but I don't know how people can watch and say he's been the issue defensively. When he's off the floor Denver does whatever they want. He's matched up with an ATG, that's all it is.

Gobert is doing the best job I've ever seen of having to clean up messes when they rotate off Aaron Gordon on the backside. Idk what to tell people at this point. This is an insanely well constructed and well oiled team. AG is basically a bigger and better Warriors Iguodala to me at this point.

Was literally just thinking about how much AG reminds me of Andre last night, especially watching him bring the ball up

[parsnips33]

Are we allowed to compare Jok to Bron again? I have no idea who else I'm supposed to compare him to

[parsnips33]

Bay Area's own Aaron Gordon has been so good for the Nuggets since they got him for spare change

Tons of room on the bandwagon for anybody who wants to join

[tsherkin]

Bay Area's own Aaron Gordon has been so good for the Nuggets since they got him for spare change

Tons of room on the bandwagon for anybody who wants to join

He's been phenomenal for Denver.

[parsnips33]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

[Fadeaway_J]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

If that were the case Minnesota would never have traded him

[tsherkin]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

If that were the case Minnesota would never have traded him

Well, yeah. He would have been worth retaining were that the case.

He's a massive underperformer with consistency issues, though, who has trouble even maintaining a baseline level of useful play as a roleplayer. It's no wonder Minny was like "eh."

[sp6r=underrated]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

If that were the case Minnesota would never have traded him

Well, yeah. He would have been worth retaining were that the case.

He's a massive underperformer with consistency issues, though, who has trouble even maintaining a baseline level of useful play as a roleplayer. It's no wonder Minny was like "eh."

Yup, there are a lot of NBA players who could have been a top 15 player in the NBA if they had been given a shot in their prime.And there are a ton of fringe players who could have become solid rotational players if they had landed on the right team that developed their skill.

But Wiggins isn't in that camp. Teams invested years in developing him, gave him a ton of slack on the court and he never really made the leap. HE just lacked it. And as a reminder he was a disappointment at Kansas.

[tsherkin]

Yup, there are a lot of NBA players who could have been a top 15 player in the NBA if they had been given a shot in their prime.And there are a ton of fringe players who could have become solid rotational players if they had landed on the right team that developed their skill.

Yep.

But Wiggins isn't in that camp. Teams invested years in developing him, gave him a ton of slack on the court and he never really made the leap. HE just lacked it. And as a reminder he was a disappointment at Kansas.

Indeed. He just doesn't have it upstairs. It's not even intellectual, though there are elements lacking the academia of his approach; he's just so inconsistent in effort.

[sp6r=underrated]

Yup, there are a lot of NBA players who could have been a top 15 player in the NBA if they had been given a shot in their prime.And there are a ton of fringe players who could have become solid rotational players if they had landed on the right team that developed their skill.

Yep.

But Wiggins isn't in that camp. Teams invested years in developing him, gave him a ton of slack on the court and he never really made the leap. HE just lacked it. And as a reminder he was a disappointment at Kansas.

Indeed. He just doesn't have it upstairs. It's not even intellectual, though there are elements lacking the academia of his approach; he's just so inconsistent in effort.

I love your point that it isn't intellectual. Some players just naturally drift in-game. I wouldn't even call it laziness the way I would with players who don't exercise, follow their diet, learn plays or dog it on the court. His motor is just naturally low and he's the exact opposite of the guys who can stay intellectually locked-in play-by-play.

[tsherkin]

I love your point that it isn't intellectual. Some players just naturally drift in-game. I wouldn't even call it laziness the way I would with players who don't exercise, follow their diet, learn plays or dog it on the court. His motor is just naturally low and he's the exact opposite of the guys who can stay intellectually locked-in play-by-play.

He isn't dumb. It isn't that he doesn't have the brainpower to do it. He puts it together in stretches. And like, he clearly does the drills and is in the weight room and stuff. This isn't Vince Carter-level "eh, I just show up and am a naturally-gifted beast" kinda thing, or like McGrady pre 02-03, right?

It's a focus issue. Focus and discipline. You need another level of mentality to exceed, even with great physical tools. You don't have to be a sociopath like Jordan or Kobe, but you need... something else. A different degree of buy-in if you want to be great. And he doesn't have it, which is what it is.

[cpower]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

Josh Hart shot 41% on 3s in playoffs and dished out 5 assists, no brain/heart can fill this massive skill gap

[parsnips33]

His playoff run 2022 was incredible and nobody can ever take that away.

More just wanted to comment on how incredible Hart is. Is there a single team in the league that wouldn't be thrilled to have him as a big part of their rotation?

[parsnips33]

Also I'm convinced if Wiggins had Josh Hart's brain/heart Warriors would be 3peating this year lol

Josh Hart shot 41% on 3s in playoffs and dished out 5 assists, no brain/heart can fill this massive skill gap

If Wigs went for every rebound the way Hart does, I wouldn't even need him to do anything else