Retro POY '74-75 (Voting Complete)

[Manuel Calavera]

1. McAdoo
2. Erving
3. Kareem
4. Barry
5. Gilmore (but I really want to put McGinnis)

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Barry
2. McAdoo
3. Artis
4. McGinnis
5. Julius

Tossed & turned on the top 3. Brief explanation:

This year, the Warriors were really Barry and an ensemble of players. He played FAR more minutes than anyone else on the team. Where this really blow my mind is considering the Warriors' defense. With Barry playing so much more than everyone else, and being the coach on the floor, it becomes hard to argue that he's not the team's defensive MVP in addition to scoring massively and acting as a distributor. Crazy impressive.

A key point in evaluating the Warriors also is how to factor in that they weren't THAT good all year long. If the Warriors proved to be a one year wonder, I'd be more inclined to put not that much weight in their dominant finish - but clearly this was a dominant team peaking at the right time, not a fluke.

Gilmore falls to 3 because I'm just not that confident on how he stacks up comparing to the other 2. I know I've been lobbying for him, but I do have doubts which have been argued well by others here. Still he's clearly top 3. I've already explained his superiority to McGinnis, what about Erving?

Well, it's pretty simple: When you lose like Erving's Nets did, I can't ignore it. He falls behind his co-MVP, and the other ABA'er I think was even better. He still doesn't fall out of the top 5 though, because to me Kareem's the only other guy I could really see as close, and Kareem missed significant time which kept him from even having the possibility of a disappointing post-season.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Doctor MJ]

'74-75 Results

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Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Rick Barry         14   5   0   1   0 178   0.890
2. Bob McAdoo          5  12   1   2   0 145   0.725
3. Artis Gilmore       1   1   6   4   7  66   0.330
4. Julius Erving       0   2   4   6   4  57   0.280
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0   0   8   1   4  47   0.235
6. George McGinnis     0   0   1   2   2  13   0.065
7. Elvin Hayes         0   0   0   3   2  11   0.055
8. Dave Cowens         0   0   0   1   0   3   0.015
9. Bobby Jones         0   0   0   0   1   1   0.005


[Sedale Threatt]

Ronnymac had one of the most interesting posts in the threads.

Shaq misses 15 games, takes No. 1 in 02.

Kareem misses 17 games, isn't even listed on five ballots despite putting up 30/14/4 with three blocks.

Tough crowd.

[JordansBulls]

Ronnymac had one of the most interesting posts in the threads.

Shaq misses 15 games, takes No. 1 in 02.

Kareem misses 17 games, isn't even listed on five ballots despite putting up 30/14/4 with three blocks.

Tough crowd.

One made the playoffs, one didn't. One won the title and finals mvp and one didn't make the playoffs. How many guys in the first place that miss 15+ games and don't make the playoffs make the top 5 anyway?

[Doctor MJ]

Ronnymac had one of the most interesting posts in the threads.

Shaq misses 15 games, takes No. 1 in 02.

Kareem misses 17 games, isn't even listed on five ballots despite putting up 30/14/4 with three blocks.

Tough crowd.

Well speaking for myself, I forgive a lot if you accomplish a lot in the playoffs. Shaq missing those 15 games didn't keep him from leading the team to the title, so it seems silly to get hung up on it. For Kareem, the regular season was everything, and imho his regular season impact was less than 5 guys because of the time he missed.

If you want to knock me for some inconsistency here, I think there's an opportunity too, but to me the alternatives are 1) ignore missed time totally, or 2) severely penalize guys for things that didn't reduce their end team success one iota - and I just can't swallow doing either.

[ronnymac2]

Look, Shaq deserved number one in 2002 because he was the best player and his effect on the game helped his teammates and he took advantage of the great help he received. His team won a title because of all of that. But in the end, he was at the mercy of his supporting cast. Whether they were going to be good or bad that season- he didn't have a say in that.

What if Kobe, Fox, and Fisher had season-ending injuries in the fifth game of the season and PJ left the team halfway through to go live in Alaska or something. If Shaq still played the exact same way, but LA barely missed the playoffs, would he be left off a ballot despite not being able to control any of that other stuff? Would his impact dissappear?




Alchemy is the ancient process of trying to change **** into gold. I don't think it ever worked.

I can't bash Kareem for not being able to do the impossible.

[JordansBulls]

Look, Shaq deserved number one in 2002 because he was the best player and his effect on the game helped his teammates and he took advantage of the great help he received. His team won a title because of all of that. But in the end, he was at the mercy of his supporting cast. Whether they were going to be good or bad that season- he didn't have a say in that.

What if Kobe, Fox, and Fisher had season-ending injuries in the fifth game of the season and PJ left the team halfway through to go live in Alaska or something. If Shaq still played the exact same way, but LA barely missed the playoffs, would he be left off a ballot despite not being able to control any of that other stuff? Would his impact dissappear?




Alchemy is the ancient process of trying to change **** into gold. I don't think it ever worked.

I can't bash Kareem for not being able to do the impossible.

This can be said about anyone that misses games. Doesn't mean they get a break and should be included based off of assumptions.

[Doctor MJ]

Look, Shaq deserved number one in 2002 because he was the best player and his effect on the game helped his teammates and he took advantage of the great help he received. His team won a title because of all of that. But in the end, he was at the mercy of his supporting cast. Whether they were going to be good or bad that season- he didn't have a say in that.

What if Kobe, Fox, and Fisher had season-ending injuries in the fifth game of the season and PJ left the team halfway through to go live in Alaska or something. If Shaq still played the exact same way, but LA barely missed the playoffs, would he be left off a ballot despite not being able to control any of that other stuff? Would his impact dissappear?

Alchemy is the ancient process of trying to change **** into gold. I don't think it ever worked.

I can't bash Kareem for not being able to do the impossible.

Address the alternatives I mentioned. I'll readily admit that my way is less that I'd like it to be.

The core thing is actual impact. imho it's ridiculous to say a superstar who wins a title has sorely lacking impact because he missed a quarter of the regular season because in the end no one really will really care about the missed time. But ignoring time missed in a regular season where the star has nothing but the regular season seems ridiculous because that's literally linearly decreasing his impact with every game played. Is 75% Kareem better than 100% Erving? I certainly don't think so.

[semi-sentient]

Regarding Shaq in 2002, I was one of the ones who gave him a 1st place vote. The thing is, he dominated in the playoffs and especially in the NBA Finals, so that more than makes up for missed time in the regular season. Kobe wasn't quite as dominant that season (as opposed to 2001 or 2003), and the only other strong candidate was Tim Duncan who I initially had 1st that year (late change). The bottom line is that Shaq absolutely dominated at the highest level and that easily trumps anything anyone else did.

Kareem would have dominated in the playoffs as well, more than likely, but we can't give him credit for something he didn't do. The fact that he's top 5 is impressive enough considering he got no burn in the post-season. That very rarely happens unless there is a weak field of candidates, and this year the candidates are very, very strong.

[ronnymac2]

Isn't it reasonable to think that if Jabbar had somebody to help him- let's say Brandon Roy- the Bucks would make the playoffs? Making this whole thing about making the playoffs irrelevant?

I just can't put a ton of blame on Jabbar for MIL not making the playoffs. If Milwaukee had another top 15 or so player, Jabbar would still be the lead dog, and MIL makes the playoffs, and nobody even discusses how Jabbar didn't have impact.

I understand that Kareem didn't have a post-season to play with. I know he missed the 17 games in reality. Hell, that type of stuff made it so that even I didn't put him at number one this year. But you can't put blame on the guy for things he can't control. I can only judge what he can control.

[ronnymac2]

Ohh, and as long as it isn't an enormous amount of games missed and it's only REG SEA games, I usually dismiss those games missed.

[JordansBulls]

Isn't it reasonable to think that if Jabbar had somebody to help him- let's say Brandon Roy- the Bucks would make the playoffs? Making this whole thing about making the playoffs irrelevant?

I just can't put a ton of blame on Jabbar for MIL not making the playoffs. If Milwaukee had another top 15 or so player, Jabbar would still be the lead dog, and MIL makes the playoffs, and nobody even discusses how Jabbar didn't have impact.

I understand that Kareem didn't have a post-season to play with. I know he missed the 17 games in reality. Hell, that type of stuff made it so that even I didn't put him at number one this year. But you can't put blame on the guy for things he can't control. I can only judge what he can control.

Huh??? They made the playoffs as soon as he left.
How can you say give him another top 15 player or so and he makes the playoffs when a guy like Rick Barry won the title without having one in the 70's in a league that had half of it's best players in the other league in the ABA?

[semi-sentient]

Ohh, and as long as it isn't an enormous amount of games missed and it's only REG SEA games, I usually dismiss those games missed.

I've had trouble weighing that myself, and typically I'll make exceptions if the player in question achieved all he could (like Shaq in 2002). Heck, in 2001 I gave Duncan the vote over Kobe solely because he played a full season. I kind of regret that, having gone back and looked at some additional 2001 playoff games, but I think it's a just reason to dock a player slightly.

[penbeast0]

Isn't it reasonable to think that if Jabbar had somebody to help him- let's say Brandon Roy- the Bucks would make the playoffs? Making this whole thing about making the playoffs irrelevant?

I just can't put a ton of blame on Jabbar for MIL not making the playoffs. If Milwaukee had another top 15 or so player, Jabbar would still be the lead dog, and MIL makes the playoffs, and nobody even discusses how Jabbar didn't have impact.

I understand that Kareem didn't have a post-season to play with. I know he missed the 17 games in reality. Hell, that type of stuff made it so that even I didn't put him at number one this year. But you can't put blame on the guy for things he can't control. I can only judge what he can control.

It becomes a big deal when people claim Kareem had a huge impact and point to the team record when he was playing and not playing. If you are hurt, you aren't very valuable during that period of injury and if your injury prevents your team from making the playoffs, you can't say they weren't important games being only regular season.

I can still see voting for a guy who misses the playoff if he has a season that is appreciably better statistically than his competitors who did make the playoffs but that isn't even true here as Gilmore, Erving, and McAdoo had comparable statistical seasons, didn't miss games, and led their teams to MUCH better records and poststeason success (to say nothing of NBA champion Rick Barry).

All I can figure is that people are voting career, not individual season here. They know and revere Kareem and don't know enough about his competitors to appreciate their accomplishments.

P.S.
Bobby Dandridge was a reasonable Brandon Roy fascimile as a consistent all-Defense candidate wing who was good for around 20 ppg and was the #2/3 player on two completely different NBA champions. It was the rest of the squad 3-8 that had issues with Lucious Allen being traded for Jim Price who went down for a third of the season with injury, Jon McGlocklin being inefficient, and highly touted rookies Kevin Restani and Gary Brokaw never developing the way Milwaukee had hoped.

[Doctor MJ]

Isn't it reasonable to think that if Jabbar had somebody to help him- let's say Brandon Roy- the Bucks would make the playoffs? Making this whole thing about making the playoffs irrelevant?

I just can't put a ton of blame on Jabbar for MIL not making the playoffs. If Milwaukee had another top 15 or so player, Jabbar would still be the lead dog, and MIL makes the playoffs, and nobody even discusses how Jabbar didn't have impact.

I understand that Kareem didn't have a post-season to play with. I know he missed the 17 games in reality. Hell, that type of stuff made it so that even I didn't put him at number one this year. But you can't put blame on the guy for things he can't control. I can only judge what he can control.

You're still not responding to my concerns. Not sure what else to say. Poking holes in my thinking isn't productive unless a better approach is presented. Kareem was hurt this year, the obvious thing to do is to knock him for it. When players have otherworldly playoffs, I'll largely ignore such missing time - and it's THAT that's really the part that could be thought of as inconsistent. Arguing on the Shaq pick makes more sense to me.

In the end, what this probably comes down to is that there's more to rating a player's career than can what can be summed up by rating individual years separately. When I rank Kareem all-time, do I really spend time thinking "If only he rated higher in those 2 years where he missed significant time?" Probably not. But this year, with what Kareem had to give in the time his team played, I honestly don't see how he's a top 5 guy.

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Kareem inches closer to Shaq, Bird, and Duncan. He'll pass all 3 after the next round of voting to move into 3rd place. Julius Erving is still at the #10 spot, but he'll pass Kobe after the next round to take over the #9 spot.

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1.  Michael Jordan        9.578
2.  Magic Johnson         7.114
3.  Tim Duncan            6.153
4.  Larry Bird            6.147
5.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
6.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   5.714
7.  Karl Malone           4.649
8.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
9.  Kobe Bryant           4.326
10. Julius Erving         4.096
11. Moses Malone          3.478
12. Kevin Garnett         3.388
13. LeBron James          3.083
14. David Robinson        2.431
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179

[Sedale Threatt]

First of all, it was probably lame of me to toss my post out there after the fact, with the voting complete and after not making much of a strong case when I had the chance.

Second of all, I'm not arguing that Kareem should have been first, or any particular place for that matter, except that he has to be on the ballot somewhere.

It wasn't just Kareem missing games; Price and Allen, two of their top four scorers and players according to PER, missed 113 games between them. So I'm not seeing how it's fair to punish Kareem for circumstances totally outside his control.

Especially when he's going to finish no worse than second in 74, despite being virtually the same player, except he was healthy, and his team wasn't decimated by injuries, and Robertson was still playing.

[ronnymac2]

The only reason Shaq was capable of putting up his awesome post-season was because his team was good enough to get into the playoffs despite Shaq missing the games. Jabbar's team wasn't good enough without him for a similar amount of games to accomplish that task.

I didn't vote Jabbar at number one, though I wouldn't argue against it. I've been careful not to do this by career. I AM looking at each year specifically, looking at other years only for context.

I mean, how much worse does everybody feel Jabbar was as an actual basketball in 1975 relative to, say, 74 or 76-80?