Kobe or Drexler?

[SDChargers#1]

Clyde's shooting about 50% from the field overall while Bryant is shooting 45% thats a significant difference. Also he's giving you 6APG to Kobe's 4.5

TS% is a horribly flawed stat that does not accurately represent shooting efficiency, please stop using it.

Again you can easily make a case Clyde's Prime seasons were on par or equal to Bryants best.

False, the opposite is true, and for the reasons cited above. A 3 pointer is worth more than a 2 pointer...FACT. Therefore, it's ok to shoot a lower % from 3. And since Bryant is a MUCH better 3P shooter than Clyde, it equates to them being about equal efficiency wise.

[Andrewchos]

Equal in TS% which is a horribly flawed stat. In reality Bryant is only making 1 or 2 more 3pointers a game and is missing far more shots then Clyde is. His better % from the 3point line already translate's into more PPG.

Clyde is scoring almost as much as Bryant while missing far less shot's, you disagree?

Combined with his better all around stats its reasonable to say that season was on par with Bryants best.

TS% is a favorite stat of Bryant fan's because it covers up for one of his biggest weaknesses that being shooting poorly from the field.

[nonemus]

Wait, tell me again why TS% is a "horribly flawed stat"?

Drexler's 2 year "prime":

27.1 ppg/7.25 rpg/5.8 apg/2.7 spg on TS% of 55.3%.

Selecting 2 years of Kobe's prime (out of like, the 9 seasons thus far):

30.0 ppg/ 6rpg/ 5.4 apg/ 1.6 spg on TS% of 57.8%.

So yeah, statistically close, although it's easily Kobe imo. But they aren't in different tiers in terms of prime impact.

[ronnymac2]

Drexler is underrated now- he was a monster. Top five player in the league some years.

However, Bryant has a clear edge over Clyde. I see no argument for Drexler.

[Andrewchos]

It cover's up for poor FG% which is a legitimate fault. If you shoot poorly from the field your giving up scoring opportunities and giving the ball back to the other team.

Making an extra 1 or 2 3pointers or shooting well from the line doesn't make up for that.

[Sedale Threatt]

Yes, it does. That's pretty much the whole point.

[azuresou1]

You must be stupid if you think TS% is a flawed stat and FG% isn't. Like... seriously.

Role Player A takes 8 shots a game as a big man. He makes 4 shots a game, and draws no FTs. He puts up 8 points on 8 shots.

Role Player B takes 8 shots a game as a 3 pt shooter. He makes 4 shots a game, and draws no FTs. He puts up 12 points on 8 shots.

Their FG% is identical. Role Player B's TS% is much better. Role Player A does not crack any rotation (at least for his scoring), while Role Player B is one of the premier 3 point threats in the game.

[Andrewchos]

If you shoot 4-20 from the field but you also shoot 25-25 from the line that makes you a great shooter?

If you shoot and make alot of 3pointers per game you may produce more points per possession but that doesn't change how good or efficient a shooter you are the two are completely separate things.

I understand how TS% work's but its clearly a flawed stat and far from being the best way to determine how efficient or good a shooter a player is.

[yongaz]

I don't see why 90% of Lakers fans posts in Kobe threads are now about Andrewchos. Even if his opinions are at times stupid, at least he backs them up with reasoning. Just because he disagrees with you vehemently, no reason to personally attack him. Heck, a lot of the time I disagree with him, but calling his anti-Kobe bias and using that as a leverage to win an argument is stupid, especially considering the pro-Kobe bias of Lakers fans.

And within the echelon of Basketball terminology "Peak" is a season, not just a couple of games.

All that being said, I can see no argument for Drexler being better. He had 2.5 seasons which are statistically comparable to Kobe's, and even within those parameters, he falls short.

I don't have a problem with haters... they'll always be there. I don't have a problem with stupid opinions either, because people are entitled to their stupid opinions. I'm a Laker fan first, Kobe fan second, which means I'll of course open up any Laker / Kobe related threads.

The problem with Andrewscho is not so much of his anti-Kobe bias; it's the fact that he continually says that he 'doesn't dislike Kobe' and unlike the rest of us Kobe homers, views the game subjectively and objectively with 'no bias whatsover'. At least with guys like J23F, whom I find quite the arrogant sob at times, can be man enough and admit his dislike for Kobe. As a matter of fact, I actually respect him (in spite of me trying to rile him up and poking fun at him) and enjoy reading most of his posts.

However andrewchos continues to make claims of unbiasedness and all that and lump all Laker fans, or essentially anyone who argues for Kobe as a homer; of course I'm going to call him out. Sure I admit that none of my posts to him has any substance, but all he does is make a Kobe thread unreadable, especially since he brings out the worst in the homers as well. I've participated in plenty of meaningful discussion here even with Kobe haters, but when someone is clearly arguing on the lulz level, then I'll match that.

There are some clear homers here as well, and they're also lulz worthy, but in any case, I stand by what I've said - andrewchos is a great source of amusement. It's like watching a train wreck, or maybe that monkey that pees into his own mouth ... you're like wtf LOL that's gross but you can't look away... which is why I spent minutes typing this post up and contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Ah such is life.

[nonemus]

If you shoot 4-20 from the field but you also shoot 25-25 from the line that makes you a great shooter?

Yes, it does. Driving to the lane and drawing fouls are much better than 2 point jumpshots. That's a TS% of 53%, which is OK at best btw.

[Andrewchos]

Sure I admit that none of my posts to him has any substance. I spent minutes typing this post up and contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion (I have a life). Did you see the video of the monkey peeing in his mouth? I love that video.

Ah such is life.

[Andrewchos]

If you shoot 4-20 from the field but you also shoot 25-25 from the line that makes you a great shooter?

Yes, it does. Driving to the lane and drawing fouls are much better than 2 point jumpshots. That's a TS% of 53%, which is OK at best btw.

Wouldn't that make you a terrible shooter that's good at drawing foul's and shooting free throws?

I still dont see how the ability to draw fouls and make his freethrows covers up for the fact that he shot 4-20 and missed 16 shots/scoring opportunities.

I understand how 3point shooting is more valuable and produces more points, but the free throw shooting part still doesn't make sense to me entirely.

[Bgil]

If you shoot 4-20 from the field but you also shoot 25-25 from the line that makes you a great shooter?

Yes, it does. Driving to the lane and drawing fouls are much better than 2 point jumpshots. That's a TS% of 53%, which is OK at best btw.

The only way that situation could happen is if the defense basically fouled the shooter everytime he managed to get a good shot and didn't foul him on his much more difficult shots. Unfortunately, in the 3 point era, fouling has become defensive tactic. Prior to that, a guy like Shaq shoots 70% from the floor.

[Andrewchos]

It happens sometimes. Wade and Kobe have had some terrible shooting nights where they still manage to draw 15-20 free throws.

Bad shooting from the field is still bad shooting from the field. I'd rather have a player that scores 28PPG on 50% shooting (Clyde) Then a player scoring 30-33PPG on 45% Shooting (Kobe)

Your getting similar scoring production with far less missed shots.

Back to the main topic : Clyde's two best seasons easily stack up with Bryant's best 2 seasons, no one has given me a good argument to the contrary, and more then a few people in this thread agree that its in the same tier at worst even if Bryant has the slight edge.

[nonemus]

If you shoot 4-20 from the field but you also shoot 25-25 from the line that makes you a great shooter?

Yes, it does. Driving to the lane and drawing fouls are much better than 2 point jumpshots. That's a TS% of 53%, which is OK at best btw.

Wouldn't that make you a terrible shooter that's good at drawing foul's and shooting free throws?

I still dont see how the ability to draw fouls and make his freethrows covers up for the fact that he shot 4-20 and missed 16 shots/scoring opportunities.

I understand how 3point shooting is more valuable and produces more points, but the free throw shooting part still doesn't make sense to me entirely.

53% isn't good, I'm not arguing that. But think about it, the whole reason teams foul a player is to prevent easy points. They would rather have the player work for the two points rather than them making it 100%. Fouling a player messes with their shot. That's why the foul was called, contact on the shot. If he got fouled on 1 3-pointer (to make up for the Odd number of FTA), thats an extra 12 FGA, putting his FGM-FGA at 16-32, which isn't that bad.

[Wavy Q]

Kingjames1978 like a week ago was trying to make the same argument that FG% is better than TS%

[Andrewchos]

Hmm.. good post Nemus the way you explained it there made it easier for me to understand, thanks.

I'm really tired right now but later after I get some sleep I will have to look at T.S.% again, maybe its not as flawed as I thought.

[azuresou1]

If a player gets sent to the line for free throws, he has basically two of the easiest shots in the game waiting for him. The expected points you get off a trip to the line is significantly higher than the expected points you'd get from almost any other shot in the game, excluding a dunk.

FG% doesn't mean anything because hitting 40% of your 3s is amazing, while hitting 40% of your 2pt FGAs means that you are probably not in any rotation other than for defense or rebounding.

[Andrewchos]

Unless your taking and making a significant amount of 3pointers every single game I would still think FG% is the more accurate way to judge how good of a shooter a player is, just making 1 or 2 isn't enough.

foul drawing + free throw shooting should be kept separate. Points at the line will increase a players PPG but not his shooting efficiency.

I'll take another look at T.S.% tomorrow but it still seems like a horribly flawed stat to me and covers up poor shooting efficiency if the player hits a bunch of free throws.

[nonemus]

Unless your taking and making a significant amount of 3pointers every single game I would still think FG% is the more accurate way to judge how good of a shooter a player is, just making 1 or 2 isn't enough.

But, anyway you cut it, TS% is still better. Let's say you are 1/3 from 3-point land across the board in every game, it doesn't skew TS% that much, thus making TS% the better stat still.

If he shoots 12 other times and makes 5 of those shots, his FG% is 6/15 (40%). His TS% is 43.3%. That makes sense, because his converted 3pt% (.33 * 1.5) is greater than raw 2pt FG% (5/12), and this is why his TS% is higher than his FG%, and also why his TS% does a better job and describing how good his shooting efficiency is.