My new project: top-5 1-year player peaks ever

[Gregoire]

Thanks! Hoping other mentioned posters would give the lists too...

Alright, I'll tell you where I'm at now. I have decided on a top 5 and a top 3 for that matter. Shaq, MJ and Hakeem are my top 3 and rounding out my top 5 will be '67 Wilt and '77 Kareem. It was a tough decision to choose between Kareem and Bird, but I ultimately went with Kareem because I think he was probably the best offensive big man of all-time, and as a shot blocking center, and presence around the rim, I think he had a significantly greater impact defensively than Bird was capable of, despite Larry being a fine team defender.

The only thing I'm thinking of at the moment is the order of MJ, Shaq and Hakeem. As I said, I consider MJ the greatest offensive player ever, but considering Shaq and Dream were great offensive players themselves and capable of making an impact on the boards and defensively that a guard couldn't, I'm just thinking about what was greater in terms of impact, MJ's advantage offensively, or Shaq and Dream defensively and on the boards.

One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So, at the oment you have 1-3 MJ,Shaq and Hakeem without order and 4.Wilt 5.Kareem?

Correct, though that was difficult as I said. I hate leaving '86 Bird and '13 Lebron out because of how good they are as well as Bill Walton for that matter, who I'd say probably has a top 10 peak himself. I also wondered if Wilt should crack the top 3 based on what he accomplished in that '67 season, but as I've said, it's much, much tougher for me to judge players from that long ago when there's barely any game footage to go by.

[
One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

Well, I said Kareem was probably the best offensive big man ever when you look at his sky hook, counter moves and the ability to make his free throws at 7'3", but I agree it's not a big gap. Shaq is the best I've seen at getting deep position and going up with the quick jump hook off the glass or dunking on his man, and he also has the advantage for other easy baskets like offensive rebounds and lob passes. Plus, despite his terrible free throw shooting, his physical play wore down opponents and got them into the penalty.

As for defense, that's tougher to judge because I watched the 2000 NBA season as it happened, while with Kareem, I only have a few '77 playoff games to go by and newspaper articles. As for Shaq, I know he was motivated and had a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. In Kareem's case I'm more unsure, and I'm giving Shaq the advantage for anchoring the league's best defense in 2000 while Kareem's '77 Lakers were 11th out of 22 teams, and only slightly above average.

[Gregoire]

So, at the oment you have 1-3 MJ,Shaq and Hakeem without order and 4.Wilt 5.Kareem?

Correct, though that was difficult as I said. I hate leaving '86 Bird and '13 Lebron out because of how good they are as well as Bill Walton for that matter, who I'd say probably has a top 10 peak himself. I also wondered if Wilt should crack the top 3 based on what he accomplished in that '67 season, but as I've said, it's much, much tougher for me to judge players from that long ago when there's barely any game footage to go by.

[
One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

Well, I said Kareem was probably the best offensive big man ever when you look at his sky hook, counter moves and the ability to make his free throws at 7'3", but I agree it's not a big gap. Shaq is the best I've seen at getting deep position and going up with the quick jump hook off the glass or dunking on his man, and he also has the advantage for other easy baskets like offensive rebounds and lob passes. Plus, despite his terrible free throw shooting, his physical play wore down opponents and got them into the penalty.

As for defense, that's tougher to judge because I watched the 2000 NBA season as it happened, while with Kareem, I only have a few '77 playoff games to go by and newspaper articles. As for Shaq, I know he was motivated and had a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. In Kareem's case I'm more unsure, and I'm giving Shaq the advantage for anchoring the league's best defense in 2000 while Kareem's '77 Lakers were 11th out of 22 teams, and only slightly above average.

For me its very tough about both Kareem vs Shaq offense and defense... I mean at their peaks Shaq was good defender besides bad PnR defense, but Kareem was more mobile, had more leght and imo was better transition defender , but Shaq was more intimidating imo and occuped more place in the lane

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
John Thomas
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
rravenred
PaulieWall
Y-Knot
Baseline Runner
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234
Reservoirdawgs

So, nobody from these guys want to vote?

[Gregoire]

Just to discussion I post ardee post about summ of votes in 50 highest peaks project... from march 2013.


Average rankings based on personal lists

Right, apologies for not getting this done sooner. It took me a bit to collect lists from everyone who I could. The final summation rankings are based on the lists of ElGee, Positvity, fatal9, realbig3, colts18, DavidStern and myself. Bastillion only has rankings until 7, Doc hasn't been able to figure out his list yet, and more or less everyone else was waived through the project

Note, people may have wavered on the peak season of the player in question, but I'm listing the one that won first, because pretty much everyone was willing to change during the project (eg. '95 to '94 Hakeem, '71 to '77 Kareem, etc.), though the other season(s) are just being listed by the side.

1. '91 Jordan
2. '00 Shaq
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '09/'12 LeBron (the only one people are absolutely undecided on)
5. '67 Wilt
6. '77 Kareem
7. '86 Bird
8. '87 Magic
9. '03 Duncan
10. '65/'62 Russell
11. '04 Garnett
12. '77 Walton
13. '63/'64 Oscar
14. '76 Erving
15. '09/'10 Wade
16. '08 Kobe
17. '11/'06 Dirk
18. '95/'94 Robinson
19. '05/'07 Nash
20. '90 Ewing

Couple of things:

1. Russell was voted in way way way too early. I still think it was the freakiest result of the project.
2. The anti-LeBron bias in the project is now evident. He's the one with the largest shift.

Thoughts?

[ShaqAttack3234]

The current hold up for me is that I'm giving 2013 Lebron much more consideration for top 5 peak, and I'd like to get a hold of more 1993 Hakeem games since to this day, I've still seen far more games of Hakeem from '94 on.

[Gregoire]

The current hold up for me is that I'm giving 2013 Lebron much more consideration for top 5 peak, and I'd like to get a hold of more 1993 Hakeem games since to this day, I've still seen far more games of Hakeem from '94 on.

Yes, I think in realGM board Lebron had concencus top-5 peak ven before 2013, some have him top-3 or even at 1 spot... and now he became better IMO.

[Gregoire]

:noway: to the people ranking Russell's peak over Wilt's.

Seriously. This is carrying over from the peaks project. It's all just "-10 DRtg! -10 DRtg! Wowwwwww."

That's basically just as bad as RINGZZZ RINGZZZ RINGZZZ.

There is no objective thing to suggest Russell did more things of value on a basketball court in either of '64 or '65 than Wilt did in '67. The numbers don't lie, if you're volume scoring on +14.4 TS%, leading the league in rebounds, and being the point guard for a +7 offense, it's impossible to top that really.

Yes, defense is and WAS imo more team accomplishment than offense, in which individual can carry enormous load.

[Gregoire]

Another interesting thing, which is relevant to the topic: name the players, who can have greatest peak ever or nar it if not some issues ( injuries, conditioning, drugs, accidents, lazyness, attitude, mentality ect);
Obviously some issues were in Wilt and Shaq careers, but its only about careers for them - at their peaks in 67 and 00 respectively they done full throttle and realized their potential at max. That because they had top 2-3 peaks ever. I think we could say these about Walton too, but here injuries may decline his peak a little.
I talk more about the quys like Sampson (injuries), Barkley (conditioning, laziyness), T-Mac (lazy, injuries), Carter (mentality, lazy), Bias (death), Richardson (drugs), Sabonis (injuries), Kemp (mantality, conditioning), Yao (injuries) ect... Its about potential. Have any of these guys case to have greatest peak without issues? Or maybe I didnt mention somabody...

[Gregoire]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9840
Interesting relative stuff...

[Gregoire]

New relevant thread
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1282751&p=37406113#p37406113

[ShaqAttack3234]

Alright, Gregoire, I'll give you a list you can count for now.

1.2000 Shaq
2.1990 Jordan
3.1993 Hakeem
4.1967 Wilt
5.2013 Lebron

1977 Kareem and 1986 just barely missed the list.

[ceiling raiser]

Gregoire - I'm almost done revising my list. Should have it updated in the next couple of days.

[Gregoire]

Alright, Gregoire, I'll give you a list you can count for now.

1.2000 Shaq
2.1990 Jordan
3.1993 Hakeem
4.1967 Wilt
5.2013 Lebron

1977 Kareem and 1986 just barely missed the list.

Thanks a lot! If you will have some changes or explanations - post it here please.

[Gregoire]

Gregoire - I'm almost done revising my list. Should have it updated in the next couple of days.

Im glad to hear ! Waiting of it...

[NO-KG-AI]

:noway: to the people ranking Russell's peak over Wilt's.

Seriously. This is carrying over from the peaks project. It's all just "-10 DRtg! -10 DRtg! Wowwwwww."

That's basically just as bad as RINGZZZ RINGZZZ RINGZZZ.

There is no objective thing to suggest Russell did more things of value on a basketball court in either of '64 or '65 than Wilt did in '67. The numbers don't lie, if you're volume scoring on +14.4 TS%, leading the league in rebounds, and being the point guard for a +7 offense, it's impossible to top that really.

All kind of silly. Why can't he be a lot better defensively than Wilt? To the point where it makes up the difference?

[ceiling raiser]

So I redid all of my survey projects for the 10 players, and completed one for Hakeem. Here are the top offensive/defensive peaks:

Code: Select all

Offense

Value   Season
+6.0   85 Bird
+6.0   86 Bird
+6.0   87 Bird
+6.0   88 Bird
+6.0   89 Jordan
+6.0   90 Jordan
+6.0   91 Jordan
+6.0   92 Jordan
+6.0   00 O’Neal
+6.0   01 O’Neal

Defense

Value   Season
+9.5   64 Russell
+8.0   62 Russell
+8.0   63 Russell
+8.0   65 Russell
+7.5   61 Russell
+7.5   66 Russell
+6.5   69 Russell
+6.5   93 Olajuwon
+6.0   94 Olajuwon
+5.5   64 Chamberlain

I have a total of 7 10.0 SRS seasons (Chamberlain 64,67; Russell 64; O'Neal 00,01; Olajuwon 93,94) at the moment, with Kareem in at +9.0 (LeBron at +8.5, Duncan at +8.0). I feel like there will be other players checking in at +8.0 or greater (Garnett, Walton, Robinson being the most likely candidates) so for now my top 4 are Wilt-Russell-Shaq-Hakeem. No order presently, since nothing separates them aside from stylistic preference.

[Gregoire]

So I redid all of my survey projects for the 10 players, and completed one for Hakeem. Here are the top offensive/defensive peaks:

Code: Select all

Offense

Value   Season
+6.0   85 Bird
+6.0   86 Bird
+6.0   87 Bird
+6.0   88 Bird
+6.0   89 Jordan
+6.0   90 Jordan
+6.0   91 Jordan
+6.0   92 Jordan
+6.0   00 O’Neal
+6.0   01 O’Neal

Defense

Value   Season
+9.5   64 Russell
+8.0   62 Russell
+8.0   63 Russell
+8.0   65 Russell
+7.5   61 Russell
+7.5   66 Russell
+6.5   69 Russell
+6.5   93 Olajuwon
+6.0   94 Olajuwon
+5.5   64 Chamberlain

I have a total of 7 10.0 SRS seasons (Chamberlain 64,67; Russell 64; O'Neal 00,01; Olajuwon 93,94) at the moment, with Kareem in at +9.0 (LeBron at +8.5, Duncan at +8.0). I feel like there will be other players checking in at +8.0 or greater (Garnett, Walton, Robinson being the most likely candidates) so for now my top 4 are Wilt-Russell-Shaq-Hakeem. No order presently, since nothing separates them aside from stylistic preference.

So, you have 4 guys in the number 1 spot without separation?