Retro POY '99-00 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '99-00. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _2000.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _2000.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _2000.html

Topics for '99-00:

-Shaq finally breaks through
-Reggie vs the Knicks one last time
-No clear #2 player.

[Baller 24]

I think you got the title of the thread wrong Doc.

[JordansBulls]

1. Shaq (unanimous) - Won League MVP and Finals MVP including leading in WS and PER in the season and playoffs

2. Alonzo Mourning (5th in WS on the season and 3rd in PER)

3. Karl Malone (finished 2nd in WS and PER in the regular season and 3rd in PER in the playoffs)

4. Tim Duncan (finished 4th in WS and PER in the regular season)
I was going to leave him off, but I can't leave him off because he didn't play in the playoffs. Afterall KG was on the list in 2005 when he didn't even make the playoffs.

5. Gary Payton (3rd in WS on the season) - All NBA 1st Team and Defense

HM: Kevin Garnett (Led team to 50 wins), Jason Kidd, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Chris Webber, Reggie Miller


All-NBA Teams
1st Team
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton

2nd Team
Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill
Allen Iverson
Karl Malone*
Alonzo Mourning

3rd Team
Vince Carter
Eddie Jones
Stephon Marbury
David Robinson*
Chris Webber


All-Defensive Teams
1st Team
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton

2nd Team
Eddie Jones
Jason Kidd
Shaquille O'Neal
Scottie Pippen*
Clifford Robinson

[Baller 24]

O'neal is probably everyone's CLEAR number 1 here, and I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, dominant throughout the entire season, solid on both the offensive and defensive end, fantastic in the playoffs, and he tore the front-court of the Pacers up in the pieces in the Finals where he was absolutely amazing.

Second spot for me is Zo v Malone. Zo was solid offensively, even better defensively, but something struck me about the team success aspect. With him, the team was 50-29, without him, 2-1. That's obviously not enough sample size to determine anything, but consider the following: Malone's team was 55-27, he had arguably less talent surrounding him compared to Zo, he went the same distance in the playoffs (2nd round), and lost to a better team. Individually even despite having a 7 year age difference, he played in more games, minutes, scored more points, grabbed more rebounds, dished out more assists, got to the line a lot more, had a higher PER, 1% difference in TS% in favor of Zo, and in the playoffs he performed arguably better. Now, considering all of that, is Zo's favorable defense enough to put him over Malone? I'd like to get some thoughts on that. Because I've got these two guys locked in for 2/3, just don't know where to place them.

4/5 I'm down to Payton, Garnett, Duncan, and Bryant depending on the arguments. Payton has some really strong ones going for him, I've already posted it in the POY thread, KG had the RS, but his playoff outing wasn't on par, Duncan was solid throughout the season, but missed 8 games, and missed the playoffs as a whole, and Bryant I think is behind all three in RS, but his playoff outing deserves some compelling arguments on his behalf.

Some things to note, AUF posted some results on All-NBA Teams, Payton came out to be 2nd behind Shaq in getting the votes, and 1st in All-NBA Team defense voting over everyone on the 1st team.

[Doctor MJ]

I think you got the title of the thread wrong Doc.

Whoops.

[An Unbiased Fan]

MVP voting:
1) Shaq - .998
2) KG - .337
3) Zo - .303
4) Malone - .258
5) TD - .205

All-NBA voting:
1) Shaq - 605
2) GP - 541
3) KG - 495
4) TD - 460
5) Kidd - 445
6) AI - 420
7) Kobe - 411
8) Malone - 409
9) Zo - 354
10) Hill - 342

All-Defense voting:
1) GP - 52
2) Zo - 42
3) Kobe - 33
4) KG - 31
5) TD - 29
6) Shaq - 29
7) Eddie Jones - 27
8) Kidd - 26
9) Pippen - 19
10) Cliff - 18

My All-Playoff Team
G - Miller
G - Kobe
F - Malone
F - Pippen
C - Shaq


1st Team All-Efficiency Differential by position:
PG - Payton (7.3)
SG - Kobe (7.0)
SF - Vince (7.7)
PF - Malone (10.5)
C - Shaq (16.6)

2nd Team All-Eff:
PG - Dre Miller (5.3)
SG - Smith (6.7)
SF - Stackhouse (5.0)
PF - TD (9.8)
C - Zo (11.9)

3rd Team All-Eff:
PG - Kidd (5.2)
SG - Penny (4.6)
SF - Pippen (4.0)
PF - KG (8.6)
C - DRob (7.8)


Notes:
Duncan got hurt and missed the playoffs. For that reason I see him dropping off my list. KG did play in the playoffs, but had a really bad playoffs, so I'm not sure if a bad playoffs > no playoffs.

Defensively, here's how my top guys did by position vs league average
1) Shaq - 40.7% (-6.3%)
2) Zo - 42.8% (-4.2%)
3) TD - 42.9% (-3.8%)
4) Kobe - 40.7% (-2.6%)

These 4 all held opposing position players to significantly lower FG%

5) KG - 46% (-0.7%)(If KG guarded mostly SF's, he would still be #5 at 42.6%(-0.9%))
6) Payton - 42.8% (-0.1%)

Slighy below the league average

7) Malone - 46.9% (+0.2%)

However, NO-KG-AI pointed out that Minny played a lot of zone, so it's hard to guage KG's defensive impact. Minny allowed 48.1% in the paint which was subpar, but had a very solid perimeter D limiting teams to 42.3% from outside.

Shaq is the clear #1, after that I see Zo, Malone, Kobe, KG, GP, all still in it for the final 4 spots.

[ItsMillerTime]

Shaq will clearly be my number 1. Zo, Malone, and KG are battling for 2-4, and im deciding between Payton and Kobe for the 5th spot

[JordansBulls]

I don't see why Duncan would have to be off the list because he didn't play in the playoffs.

I mean KG was voted 3rd in 2005 and he didn't even make the playoffs. What is the difference from Duncan playing great in the regular season and not playing in the playoffs vs KG playing great in the regular season and not playing in the playoffs?

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1008218&start=240

[lorak]

Second spot for me is Zo v Malone. Zo was solid offensively, even better defensively, but something struck me about the team success aspect. With him, the team was 50-29, without him, 2-1. That's obviously not enough sample size to determine anything, but consider the following: Malone's team was 55-27, he had arguably less talent surrounding him compared to Zo, he went the same distance in the playoffs (2nd round), and lost to a better team. Individually even despite having a 7 year age difference, he played in more games, minutes, scored more points, grabbed more rebounds, dished out more assists, got to the line a lot more, had a higher PER, 1% difference in TS% in favor of Zo, and in the playoffs he performed arguably better. Now, considering all of that, is Zo's favorable defense enough to put him over Malone? I'd like to get some thoughts on that. Because I've got these two guys locked in for 2/3, just don't know where to place them.

First, I think we have to realize how good was Mourning defense. Here’s one example: http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50LAL.html

Sure, in the next game against Zo Shaq was playing better, but still Zo defense was impressive.

Second, Malone had John Stockton, who’s very underrated here and in 2000 (37 years old!) he almost made All NBA 3rd Team (3 points more and he would make it). In playoff Jazz had no chance against Blazers.

On the other hand Heat lost after seven tough games (G7 lost by 1 point) and Hardaway missed several games (whole 1st round), so maybe he played with injury (I don’t remember, anyone know?).

Besides, Mouring won DPOY and in MVP and All NBA voting he and Malone were close so IMO it’s rather obvious that Zo should be number 2.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't see why Duncan would have to be off the list because he didn't play in the playoffs.

I mean KG was voted 3rd in 2005 and he didn't even make the playoffs. What is the difference from Duncan playing great in the regular season and not playing in the playoffs vs KG playing great in the regular season and not playing in the playoffs?

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1008218&start=240

Competition is the main reason. 2005 was a down year, even the MVP race was really lackluster. 2000 had a lot more top level performances.

TD had a solid RS, but it wasn't enough to seperate himself from the other top 6 players that year. In most rankings he's around #4-5 for the RS, no playoffs pushes him down to around Kidd's level for me.

[semi-sentient]

I still haven't seen any compelling reasons not to have Shaq at #1 and Zo at #2, so I'm only going to focus on 3-5 where I'm really torn.

I like Payton at #3 right now and the All-NBA/Defense votes tells me that he's a worthy pick. He played extremely well in the post-season and took an inferior team to its limits by damn near upsetting the Jazz.

#4 is going to Malone because he was too good to leave off the list, and despite not being on the All-Defensive teams there have been some good arguments made as to why he was an adequate defender. His play didn't drop off at all in the post-season and he had some huge games.

#5 is Kobe. Why Kobe? He had a phenomenal post-season and was too good on both ends for me to ignore. It's a tough decision, but I'm not going to give this to Garnett just because he had more MVP votes (I seem to recall Garnett winning POY in a year that Kobe won his MVP...?) and had a slightly higher PER or WS -- neither of which I've ever used to argue for one player over the other. POY isn't about just the RS and I think people are forgetting that and not properly taking into account what happens in the playoffs.

22 games (Kobe) to 4 games (KG) is a huge difference folks -- bigger than the gap in their regular games played (81 to 66 in favor of Garnett). Of course the counter-argument is that it's not KG's fault that he didn't play in more games because he didn't have the teammates that Kobe had, but then it's not exactly Kobe's fault that he was injured in the RS either. We're judging their performance as a whole, and when adding all the games/numbers up and accounting for the value of the games increasing as the playoffs progress, I think Kobe gets the slightest of edges for his production deep into the playoffs.

I thought KG under-performed in the playoffs as well, and while his passing was great, his team REALLY needed scoring from him as was pointed out in many of the half-time segments that I watched. Kobe, on the other hand, had the ability to takeover games even at the age of 21, and he did just that several times -- on both ends of the floor. The fact that he got so many votes for All-NBA/All-Defensive teams despite games missed in the RS is a testament to how good he was already, and him playing great in the post-season makes up for the time he missed.

Final Rankings:

1) Shaquille O'Neal
2) Alonzo Mourning
3) Gary Payton
4) Karl Malone
5) Kobe Bryant

[Dr Positivity]

Anyone who doesn't vote Shaq #1 is banned from RealGM

1. Shaq
2. Alonzo Mourning
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Vince Carter

[Manuel Calavera]

So far from the arguments I've seen my list will be (so far):

1. Allen Iverson
2. Alonzo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Garnett

For the talk of Garnett laying an egg in the playoffs his playoff PER was still better than Kobe's.

[semi-sentient]

Chris Webber had the 2nd highest PER in the playoffs. Just sayin' ...

[An Unbiased Fan]

For the talk of Garnett laying an egg in the playoffs his playoff PER was still better than Kobe's.

That says alot about PER and it's many problems. DRob shot 37% FG/46% TS, yet still had a 25.6 PER in the playoffs, #4 overall.

[NO-KG-AI]

AS for Duncan:

There is a difference when you put forth a herculean effort and can't take all the blame when your team isn't good enough to make the postseason, because you did you job.

Duncan's team was there, he just wasn't.

[ElGee]

MVP voting:
1) Shaq - .998
2) KG - .337
3) Zo - .303
4) Malone - .258
5) TD - .205

All-NBA voting:
1) Shaq - 605
2) GP - 541
3) KG - 495
4) TD - 460
5) Kidd - 445
6) AI - 420
7) Kobe - 411
8) Malone - 409
9) Zo - 354
10) Hill - 342

All-Defense voting:
1) GP - 52
2) Zo - 42
3) Kobe - 33
4) KG - 31
5) TD - 29
6) Shaq - 29
7) Eddie Jones - 27
8) Kidd - 26
9) Pippen - 19
10) Cliff - 18

My All-Playoff Team
G - Miller
G - Kobe
F - Malone
F - Pippen
C - Shaq


1st Team All-Efficiency Differential by position:
PG - Payton (7.3)
SG - Kobe (7.0)
SF - Vince (7.7)
PF - Malone (10.5)
C - Shaq (16.6)

2nd Team All-Eff:
PG - Dre Miller (5.3)
SG - Smith (6.7)
SF - Stackhouse (5.0)
PF - TD (9.8)
C - Zo (11.9)

3rd Team All-Eff:
PG - Kidd (5.2)
SG - Penny (4.6)
SF - Pippen (4.0)
PF - KG (8.6)
C - DRob (7.8)


Notes:
Duncan got hurt and missed the playoffs. For that reason I see him dropping off my list. KG did play in the playoffs, but had a really bad playoffs, so I'm not sure if a bad playoffs > no playoffs.

Defensively, here's how my top guys did by position vs league average
1) Shaq - 40.7% (-6.3%)
2) Zo - 42.8% (-4.2%)
3) TD - 42.9% (-3.8%)
4) Kobe - 40.7% (-2.6%)

These 4 all held opposing position players to significantly lower FG%

5) KG - 46% (-0.7%)(If KG guarded mostly SF's, he would still be #5 at 42.6%(-0.9%))
6) Payton - 42.8% (-0.1%)

Slighy below the league average

7) Malone - 46.9% (+0.2%)

However, NO-KG-AI pointed out that Minny played a lot of zone, so it's hard to guage KG's defensive impact. Minny allowed 48.1% in the paint which was subpar, but had a very solid perimeter D limiting teams to 42.3% from outside.

Shaq is the clear #1, after that I see Zo, Malone, Kobe, KG, GP, all still in it for the final 4 spots.

How does the efficiency differential work? Is it by team (which includes the backups)?

Same thing with the FG% against numbers - those are by team, correct?

[Silver Bullet]

So far from the arguments I've seen my list will be (so far):

1. Allen Iverson
2. Alonzo
3. Malone
4. Payton
5. Garnett

For the talk of Garnett laying an egg in the playoffs his playoff PER was still better than Kobe's.

umm... Shaq ?

[semi-sentient]

lol... I didn't even notice that, but I doubt he's being serious.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How does the efficiency differential work? Is it by team (which includes the backups)?

Same thing with the FG% against numbers - those are by team, correct?

It's based on postions, so it's not 100% accurate by any stretch. It includes the backup which lowers the accuracy, but most stars play major minutes anyway.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... iffeff/1-1