Retro POY '83-84 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '83-84. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1984.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1984.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1984.html

[JordansBulls]

1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the playoffs, 1st in Win Shares in the playoffs and 2nd in PER, 2nd in Win Shares in the season, 2nd in PER in the season and 3rd in WS Per 48 in the season.


2. Bernard King - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 4th in WS on the season, 2nd in WS PER 48 minutes, 4th in playoff WS, and 2nd in playoffs Win Shares per 48 minutes, 1st in playoff PER. Upset the Pistons in Round 1 (only series Isiah lost with HCA) and took the Celtics 7 games as a huge underdog in the playoffs. 1st Team All NBA

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP Voting, Finished 2nd in Playoff Win Shares, 1st Team All NBA

4. Adrian Dantley - 1st in Win Shares on the season, and 1st in Win Shares PER 48 minutes on the season, 1st in PER on the season, 5th in Playoff PER, 5th in Playoff WS PER 48 minutes.

* Got Upset with HCA in Round 2 though.

5. Sidney Moncrief - Finished 3rd in Win Shares on the Season, and 4th in Win Shares Per 48 minutes on the season, 2nd Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense


HM: Isiah Thomas, Kareem, Moses Malone, Dr J


Very hard to put 2 Lakers in the top 5 when they only won 54 games this year playing in the Western Conference.

[Dr Positivity]

Heading into an interesting period now where the superstar/MVP caliber talent is a lot less deep IMO. Probably going to be a lot of variance in the 3-5 spots from this point forward, within years and accros them

[Optimism Prime]

Heading into an interesting period now where the superstar/MVP caliber talent is a lot less deep IMO. Probably going to be a lot of variance in the 3-5 spots from this point forward, within years and accros them

That's fine with me--this project isn't supposed to be about 100% consensus, even though comments seem to imply that's the point.

[TrueLAfan]

1. Bird. Clear #1 in my book.
2. King. Three words: “Unstoppable Offensive Force.” The Knicks/Pistons post-season series was pure joy. King averaged about 40 a game; he pretty much single-handedly gave New York the series. The Celtics held him to around 32-33 a game, and counted themselves lucky.
3. Magic. Had some boneheaded plays in the playoffs. I'm kind of torn between Magic and Kareem here. What I remember from the post-season—and the times when the Lakers were in trouble, in general--is that the perimeter game would sometimes be a little sloppy or out of control. And that's Magic department. Great [plays, but also some meltdowns. Having the best halfcourt offenvie move in history as a backup was a fortuitous thing for the Lakers this year...
4. Ruland. Yep. Jeff Ruland. One of those guys who was such an oddball in terms of skills, you had to see it to believe it. (He shared that with Charles Barkley...except not as many people saw Ruland.) Ruland turned the ball over a lot. That being said, his assiast/turnover ratio was around 1 to 1 because he was an excellent passer. There's not much else bad to say about him. He used his size well to keep opposing big men out of the lane; he didn't block shots, but he was a good, physical man defender. And—this is the kicker—he was close to unstoppable on offense. Seriously. He had a great midrange shot, one of the best first step spin moves you've ever seen on a big man (especially a 250 pound big man), good court vision...he was just a force out there. In the Bullets playoff series against the Celtics, it was not a mystery that Ruland would be running the offense. And the Celtics had Parish and McHale and Maxwell and Bird on the front line...the usual cast. They “held” Ruland to 52% shooting...which sounds like Ruland still shot very well. Which he did...for anyone not named Jeff Ruland. Ruland shot 58% during the season. Ruland did compensate for his “off”shooting against the Celtics by pulling down about 13 rebounds and averaging about 8 assists a game. So, to make that clear, in the playoffs, against a great defensive team with a historically great frontline that essentially was keying on him, Jeff Ruland averaged

24.0 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 7.8 apg.

So, yeah, he's my #4 guy.
5. Kareem. Was still near his peak defensively, but it was kind of an off-year on the offensive end...if you can call 21.5-7.3-2.6 with two blocks on 58% shooting in only 33 minutes a game an “off year.” But the Celtics just smacked the Lakers around on the boards, and Kareem didn't step up there (although, to be honest, neither did the rest of the Lakers that year).

Thing is, as people are nothing, there are a lot of people here who could make it on. Isiah deserves some respect. So deos Dr. J (we are now moving into a long period of Dr. J-ness). Moncrief.

[ElGee]

King: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

King v Isiah: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Bird: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Haven't done a full scan of the articles this year and I probably won't have time (sorry). As usual, there is good stuff on youtube as well (including Pistons-Knicks duel).

[ronnymac2]

Bird is the frontrunner at number one. Magic will definitely make the top five. Most likely, Isiah and King will make it.

[Gongxi]

I don't know if I'm feeling King. Certainly Magic and Bird, and if we're gonna compare apples to apples, how was he better than Dantley that year? One playoff series?

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm normally not a huge Isiah supporter but he deserves heavy consideration this year for a 4-5 spot. Isiah truly was a dominate point guard this year. The Pistons this year were built around their offense and finished with the best offense in the NBA.

[Manuel Calavera]

I didn't even know who Jeff Ruland was until True posted that. I want to put him at #1 now.

[ronnymac2]

Just watched game 5 of NY and DET. Laimbeer dominated the glass in the game. He's awesome. If I was a Pistons fan back then, he'd be my favorite player.

Kelly Tripucka is a very talented scorer. He and King were going at it at some points physically.

Bernard is like a mix of Antawn Jamison and Carmelo Anthony on offense. Underrated athlete and good rebounder at both ends.

I believe Bill Cartwright had 27 points in the game. He played well for NY.

Isiah Thomas is a good defender. People need to see defensive-team selections to see things like this, and it is annoying. Every game I've ever seen of Isiah from 87-90, Isiah's defense was very good. Now, younger Isiah's defense is the same way. Whether he's playing on a great defensive team or not, he was a very good defender.

He has some of the best handles I've ever seen. Finishing ability is a little shaky, but he's creative. His performance is amazing. Absolutely amazing. As is King's. I believe King scored 19 points in the 4th and ot. Around that time, he hit his hand, which already had a broken finger or two. Very impressive.

Very good game overall.


Here is Bird's game 7 vs. the Knicks.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWr5JLVZV-E&feature=related[/youtube]

Seems he had a very good game 7. I'm amazed that Bernard King was able to take down Isiah's team because I think Isiah is a superstar and his teammates are better than King's. I'm even more amazed that King took Bird's Celtics to game 7 considering Bird has superior teammates and Bird is the best player in the league and is playing at a GOAT-level.

To be honest, looking at it a bit more, King might not make my top five. I know I'm gawking at his accomplishments right here in this very post, but he's not guaranteed a spot. Only Bird and Magic are at this point.

[penbeast0]

Isiah was always a good defender, very tough and physical for a guy his size . . . very comparable to John Stockton, a little better on the ball, not as good off the ball. Not sure where this myth he didn't play defense came from; the knock on Isiah has always been that he shot too much and too poorly and could be a jerk.

The top teams (and their All-Stars) are:

Boston (Bird, McHale and Parish)-- far and away the best

LA (Magic, Kareem
Philly (Moses, Erving, Toney)
Milwaukee (Moncrief) -- the other three teams over .600

8 other teams over .500 with Detroit (3!), Utah (2), and Denver (2) also having multiple All-Stars.

This strengthens the case for Moncrief, and possibly Kareem who weren't surrounded by as many other stars. It weakens the case for Isiah, and possibly Dantley and English who played for teams with other top options (and still finished behind Milwaukee). Conference finalists were Boston, LA, Milwaukee, and Phoenix (starring Walter Davis).

Early voting (will edit if I get convinced otherwise by reading posts)
1. Bird (got to be a Celtic)
2. Magic
3. Moncrief (what he does isn't as flashy but it produced a very good team)
4. King (his playoff serieses were just so incredible to watch)
5. Ruland (homer vote -- you aren't going to see any other legit Bullet candidates from 76 on into the 00s . . . )

[Mean_Streets]

I love the Jeff Ruland mention, dude looks like Larry Bird's cousin.

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Moses Malone
4. Bernard King
5. Sidney Moncrief

[ElGee]

I don't know if I'm feeling King. Certainly Magic and Bird, and if we're gonna compare apples to apples, how was he better than Dantley that year? One playoff series?

Timeout - King scoring in the regular season was 26.3 points per game on 62% TS in 34.6 minutes. You were the one touting Shaq's amazing ability to average 26-11 (.584 TS%) in the same amount of mpg as a good thing. Only in this case, that's closer to his contemporaries in mpg and I'm guessing Hubie Brown's affinity for depth in the rotation played a part in King's slightly few minutes.

He averaged 27.6 points and 5.4 rebounds per 75 possessions in 84. +7.6% TS relative to league average.

Notables per 75 possessions:

Code: Select all

Player   Pts  Reb  Ast  Relative TS%
Dantley  27.8  5.2  3.4  +10.9%
King     27.6  5.4  2.2  +7.6%
English  24.6  5.3  4.7  +2.7%
Bird     22.8  9.5  6.2  +0.9%
Moses    22.3  13.2 1.4  +2.3%
Isiah    20.1  3.8  10.5 -2.3%
Moncrief 20.0  6.4  4.3  +4.8%
Magic    16.0  6.6  11.9 +8.5%

I'm not sure how you balance performance in a certain context, but I think it was easier for Dantley to score in Utah in his system and with his teammates than King in New York (I have little exposure to the 84 Jazz so someone else can weigh on this for further explanation).

Another factor that makes King's output so noteworthy is that under coach Hubie Brown the Knicks play a very deliberate offense that doesn't lend itself to the running style King prefers.

Knicks ORtg finished at 107. Jazz at 109. King was doing a lot while heavily focused on by defenses -- he just couldn't be stopped. He was very good against the Celtics as well. King was an offensive machine and his playoffs were an extension of his regular season, not an aberration.

[ElGee]

My 1984 POY Ballot:

1. Larry Bird
2. Bernard King
3. Magic Johnson
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Sidney Moncrief

Won't be able to vote till next week so I have to go now, unfortunately.

Basically, Magic dropping off (turnovers spiking) in some ways from previous years brings him back to the pack, and the combination of King's postseason brilliance and Magic missing 15 games is enough for them to switch places.

Isiah's next for the usual reasons -- boosted by his playoffs again and driving Detroit to the top-ranked offense-- and after that it's a crap-shoot for me. Perhaps unfairly, going with the player whose game/team/impact I know the most about in Moncrief, who I've had on the cusp before and in a weak year he's my No. 5. Besides the defense, love how well he shot it and how often he went to the line in the playoffs, as well as the rebounding from the 2-spot.

[sp6r=underrated]

1. The Lakers didn't have a great RS record at all. They won 54 games and had a very mediocre PD.This doesn't look at all like a team that had two top 5 players. They certinally didn't distance themselves from Milwaukee, Philly, and I know I'll get flamed for this NY [similar PD, beat a team better than anyone LA beat this year, and also forced the C to a game 7]. Were the Knicks 3-12 that much better than the Lakers? Was King not just better but significantly better than KAJ-Magic

2. Normally in this case you can ignore the RS when a team makes the PS. I don't think you should in this case. The Lakers played an absolute joke of a schedule to get to the finals (38 wins Kings, 43 win Mavericks, 41 win Suns). This is pathetic competition, typical of getting to play 3 8 seeds in a row, so I don't think making the finals is anything impressive. I know people will ignore everything that happened this year, because of them forcing a game 7, but they shouldn't.

Right now I'm leaning towards

1. Bird
2. King
3. Isiah:

[semi-sentient]

^^^ The Lakers still had the 2nd best record in the league at 54 wins (kind of pathetic really). Only 4 teams broke 50 wins that year. Magic also missed 15 games that year. If anything, that might be the main reason he drops down a spot, but he might be able to make up some ground for an extended post-season run (although his season ended in "Tragic" fashion).

[sp6r=underrated]

This is really a down year for individual and team performances. I don't think it will be noticed as much because of the players names, but I felt 85 was a decline year and this is just poor.

[semi-sentient]

1983-84 Candidates


Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     79  38.3  24.2  .552  10.1   6.6  1.8  0.9  3.0  13.6  24.2
Magic    67  38.3  17.6  .628   7.3  13.1  2.2  0.7  4.6  10.2  22.6
King     77  34.6  26.3  .619   5.1   2.1  1.0  0.2  2.6  12.1  22.7
Moncrief 79  38.9  20.9  .591   6.7   4.5  1.4  0.3  2.7  12.7  19.8
Kareem   80  32.8  21.5  .608   7.3   2.6  0.7  1.8  2.8   8.9  21.3
Isiah    82  36.7  21.3  .520   4.0  11.1  2.5  0.4  3.7   9.1  20.9

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     23  41.8  27.5  .607  11.0   5.9  2.3  1.2  3.8  4.7   26.3
Magic    21  39.9  18.2  .601   6.6  13.5  2.0  1.0  3.8  3.5   22.8
King     12  39.8  34.8  .620   6.2   3.0  1.2  0.5  2.6  2.3   27.6
Moncrief 16  38.6  19.1  .610   6.9   4.3  1.8  0.6  3.8  2.0   18.0
Kareem   21  36.5  23.9  .592   8.2   3.8  1.1  2.1  2.1  3.3   24.0
Isiah     5  39.6  21.4  .544   3.8  11.0  2.6  1.2  4.6  0.5   20.6

NBA Finals

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     7   43.6  27.4  .595  14.0   3.6  2.1  1.1  3.6  ---   ---
Parish   7   36.6  15.4  .470  11.4   1.3  1.6  1.6  2.0  ---   ---
Magic    7   42.1  18.0  .612   7.7  13.6  2.0  0.9  4.4  ---   ---
Kareem   7   38.9  26.6  .519   7.4   4.4  1.7  2.1  3.0  ---   ---

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
================================================================
Bird        1       -      1st       2nd            62-20
Magic       3       -      1st       ---            54-28
Moncrief    8       1      2nd       1st            50-32
Kareem      4       -      1st       2nd            54-28
King        2       -      1st       ---            47-35
Isiah       5       -      1st       ---            49-33

Final Rankings:

1. Larry Bird - Should be unanimous. Led the Celtics to best record in the league and a championship, and recognized for both by winning the league MVP and Finals MVP. Also select to the All-NBA 1st team and All-Defensive 2nd team.
   
   
2. Magic Johnson - This was tough between he and King. Both guys are responsible for producing on offense and in that respect Magic was simply better. Perhaps he wasn't perceived as more valuable, but other articles that I've read (in later years) seemed to imply strongly that Magic's value was always understated in his early years due to Kareem and because he set the bar pretty high for himself early in his career.
   
   Anyway, Magic was a more efficient scorer and a much better passer, but King is not far behind in terms of efficiency. He's nowhere near the floor general that Magic is though. The Lakers were the 5th ranked offense in the league, and they would have likely been ranked #1 had Magic not been injured, whereas the Knicks were below average. King played 10 more games than Magic, but he also played 4 less minutes per game which makes it close in terms of court time. All things considered, I think Magic had a superior regular season. In the playoffs, things are closer. Bernard was great against the Pistons, but very much inconsistent against the Celtics. Magic, on the other hand, was consistent throughout the post-season. However, he has a few blemishes that stem from choke jobs in the NBA Finals. In game 2 he dribbled the clock out with the game tied, allowing OT where the Celtics ended up winning. Now I've read Riley interviews where he claimed it wasn't Magic's fault because no one else put themselves into position to receive a pass, and Worthy did turn the ball over with 18 seconds to even allow a tie in the first place. Then there's game 4, where he was pretty much responsible for the loss. They had a 5 point lead with under a minute, and he made a crucial mistake that allowed the game to go into OT, in addition to missing some crucial free throws in the extra period. The Lakers would have been up 3-1 had they pulled it out. Is that enough to drop Magic? All things considered, no. Had Magic done this in an earlier round I'd have probably been more harsh, and his numbers are still fantastic all around so I don't know if I can knock him too hard for a few sequences where he played poorly.
   
   Initially I was a bit harsh on Magic for those goof-ups, but as others pointed out, other Lakers were equally responsible for that collapse. I initially had King over Magic, but I really don't feel comfortable with that pick. It's close, but I'm going to side with Magic on this one.
   
   
3. Bernard King - See above.
   
   
4. Sidney Moncrief - Great season. Probably should have gotten more recognition in terms of MVP voting, but he did get the DPOY award which tells you how great of a two-way player he was. His play remained consistent in the playoffs, so he gets my #4.
   
   
5. Isiah Thomas - Put up very solid numbers and ran the best offense in the league. Pretty solid defender as well, from what others have stated.

HM: Kareem

[lorak]

1. Bird
2. King
3. Magic
4. Moncrief
5. Dr J – very underrated here, but all around season: 22.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 4 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.8 bpg - as many blocks as for example KAJ...

BTW, was really Magic so good at this point of his career? I mean, was he so much better than late 80s/early 90s Stockton? Because Magic is in top2-3 on most of the ballots and Stockton almost never made top 5.