Retro POY '78-79 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '78-79.

Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1979.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1979.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1979.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1979.htm

Topics
Second year in a row of Seattle and Washington in the finals
Second year in a row of no superstars in the finals
Moses wins first MVP

[JordansBulls]

1. George Gervin - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, 4th in PER, 5th in WS PER 48 minutes, 3rd in Playoff Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, All NBA 1st Team

2. Moses Malone - League MVP, 2nd in Win Shares, 3rd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 3rd in PER, 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense

3. Kareem - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, Led in Win Shares in the season and PER and Win Shares PER 48 Minutes in the season and playoffs, 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

4. Elvin Hayes - 3rd in MVP Voting, 1st in Defensive Win Shares, 1st in RPG,

5. Dennis Johnson - Finals MVP, 4th in Playoff Win Shares,

HM: Marques Johnson - 4th in Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 2nd in PER, All NBA 1st Team.

[TrueLAfan]

This is another strange year, and, again, I think I'm going to be going against the grain in some of these choices. But I was watching, and I've got my reasons...although I'm curious to hear what others have to say that isn't necessarily statistically related.

1. Kareem. Suffered from voter fatigue, and a misapprehension about his team. The Lakers were a good team. On paper. This is exactly what Adrian Dantley did for the Lakers in 1978 and 1979.

--Kept Jamaal Wilkes from playing at his natural position of SF.
--Held onto the ball too long, and didn't pass out (especially to perimeter players).
--Often set up in the low post, forcing Kareem to change his game.
--Absolutely, positively, did not play D. Uh-uh.

All of this meant that the Lakers were...troubled, shall we say. Kareem was his usual self in many ways; 24 points and 13 boards a game (from now on, Kareem is going to be a great rebounder). He averaged over 5 assists a game and a hair under 4 blocks. I blame Dantley for 80% of the team's underperforming; he was a team wrecker. (The lousy bench, poor D other than Kareem, and lack of quality at SG...that hurt too.) The Lakers had zero chemistry (and they'd had plenty in, say, 1977). Jerry West (the coach at the time) had this to say. “This team has averaged 48 wins over the past three seasons, and I'll tell you what. I don't care if he's at the top of his game, past it or underneath it—without Kareem we don't beat anybody. This team just doesn't complement him at all.” (They still made it to the conference semis in two of those years, losing to eventual champs both times.)

Big laffs for me...Sports Illustrated referring to Don Ford as a “defensive” player. Don Ford couldn't guard my grandmother, and she can't go left.

2. Gervin. Shocker. The San Antonio Spurs—who were coached by Doug More this year—were 7th in the league in total D. How the hell did this happen? Captain Late was coming off an injury and worked hard. Mike “Philly Dog” Gale was a great defender. The Whopper and Olberding were okay. The rest of the team--not good. So...seventh in the league?

Anyway, the Spurs had a mixed bag of a lineup, and had a good regular season and a nice playoff run. The Spurs beat the Sixers and took the defending champions to seven games. Gervin played great. I know, I know...Gervin couldn't play D. But we continually give Moses a pass for the things he couldn't do when his teams were able to cover his flaws (and, it seems to me, even when his teams don't). So I'll put Ice here and feel good about it.

3. Moses. Was no better on D than he was in 1980, and scored less...but he was a better rebounder and a better shooter. It just nags at me, though, that he had a good team around him again...and they underperformed again. The same is true of the 1979 Lakers...but the 1979 Rockets didn't have a guy like Elvin Hayes screwing things up. (This time, the Lakers had the problem with AD.) And Kareem was better in the playoffs than Moses was. There's just no way I can put Moses over Kareem.

4. Erving. How can I put Doctor J so high when he had an “off” year and had good teammates? Because this was a year when his teammates weren't so good. Mo Cheeks was a rookie. Henry Bibby was undersized shooting guard that had problems shooting the ball; he was second on the team in minute played. That was because Doug Collins got hurt and missed half the seaosn and all of the playoffs. Dawkins and Jones were still figuring out rotation issues. It was a team in flux. Doc did a good job with the young players, and still put up 23.1-7.2-4.6 with his usual 100+ blocks and steals. Hard to complain about that. Then he upped it a notch in the playoffs.

5. Bob Dandridge. Really good D, really good passing, good scoring...what more do you want? Oh yeah, had a great playoff year too.

HM: Marques Johnson (again)...Milwaukee had no frontcourt players, and it hurt the team. Marques was still great, though.

[Dr Positivity]

The parity this year is crazy. Best records

Washington - 54 wins
Seattle - 52 wins
Phoenix - 50 wins
Spurs - 48 wins
KC Kings - 48 wins

Heartbreaking year for the Gervin Spurs. Up 3-1 in the WCF and lost it. Until this project I never knew how many times Gervin came within a hair of making the finals. Those Spurs were the prehistoric version of the 00s Suns, ironically.

Will be interested to see how Hayes gets ranked. I know a lot of people don't like him or his game - including me. But he has a pretty good resume. 22/12/2/2 and 3rd in MVP voting, this team had the best record in the league and made the Finals.

Westphal and Davis both had awesome years for the Suns. Lost in 7 in the WCF like San Antonio. Had a Game 6 at home to close it out and lost by 1 point. This probably is the most underrated of Phoenix's many 'almost there' runs over the decades since it would appear Seattle was a tougher opponent than Washington that year

Erving got 0 All-NBA or MVP love this year despite leading a 47 win team and putting up a typical Erving 23/7/5. Anyone have details on this snub?

This is Marques Johnson's best statistical year, but the Bucks missed the playoffs. Recognized with 1st team All-NBA, though

I'm probably putting Kareem #1 and Moses #2, don't know about the rest yet

[Dr Positivity]

Tbh Kareem is a pretty easy #1 for me. I think he has a better game than Moses by a fair margin. I prefer his scoring because of the spacing in the paint he creates doing it and he's leagues ahead as a passer. And then there's the defensive end where Kareem is a 4bpg C and clearly miles ahead than Moses who anchored a defense ranking 21st out of 22. I also agree a team with the MVP, Calvin Murphy, Rudy T., and some decent players like a slightly still effective Rick Barry, Robert Reid, Mike Newlin, Mike Dunleavy should last more than 2 games in the playoffs

[JordansBulls]

Gervin this year went to the ECF and took Washington 7 games in the ECF
And lost Game 7 by only 2 points on the road. May 18 San Antonio Spurs 105 @ Washington Bullets 107

Washington was the defending champs that year.

[JordansBulls]

Tbh Kareem is a pretty easy #1 for me. I think he has a better game than Moses by a fair margin. I prefer his scoring because of the spacing in the paint he creates doing it and he's leagues ahead as a passer. And then there's the defensive end where Kareem is a 4bpg C and clearly miles ahead than Moses who anchored a defense ranking 21st out of 22. I also agree a team with the MVP, Calvin Murphy, Rudy T., and some decent players like a slightly still effective Rick Barry, Robert Reid, Mike Newlin, Mike Dunleavy should last more than 2 games in the playoffs

The same could be said about LA in 1981. They went down to a team below .500 with superior talent.

Lakers won 54 games in 1981 and the Rockets won 40 games and LA was the defending champion and got knocked off in round 1 with the cast they had.

In 1979 the Rockets were 47-35 and the Hawks were 46-36. So while they lost 2-0, it wasn't the same type of upset as the Lakers experienced in 1981.

So if you are going to knock Moses for losing in 1979 and not put him #1, then the same should have been applied to Kareem in 1981 especially considering how much more favorite LA was.

[Mean_Streets]

We are now heading a period where the competition is weakened. 1979 was worse compared to 1980 (no Bird, no Magic, & Dr. J had his troubles in the NBA during the 70's).

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Highest PER in the NBA. Stepped up his game like he always does in the playoffs.

2. Moses Malone - Won the league MVP in 1979 & made All-NBA First Team over Kareem, but unlike Kareem...Moses did not rise his game in the playoffs, he was swept.

3. George Gervin - Again, I'm not a big fan of Gervin, but there really isn't much competition this year. Led the NBA in scoring & led his team to the ECF.

4. Marques Johnson - 25.6 PPG on 55 FG%. Featured on the All-NBA First Team.

5. Dennis Johnson - Redeemed himself from that horrible game 7 Finals performance from 1978. Won Finals MVP by averaging 23/6/6 & 3.8 SPG & 3 BPG.

[ronnymac2]

Jabbar is likely to be first, Moses is guaranteed a spot, and I'm happy to say that Iceman most likely gets on my list this year.


How did Moses underperform in the playoffs? Dude went off for 24/20 with 4 blocks per game and 9 fta's per game. He grabbed 12.5 offensive rebounds per game! I don't think his field goal percentage is telling of his offensive value.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm going to have Kareem first for basically the next eight or nine seasons.

[lorak]

I'm going to have Kareem first for basically the next eight or nine seasons.

Dr J should be no 1 in 1976.

[Sedale Threatt]

Not the time or place for it, but I'm going to have a tough time picking anybody over a center who led the league in rebounds and blocks while averaging 28 points and 5 assists a night on a pretty dreadful team. That is about as dominant as you can get.

[drza]

Early rankings:

1) Kareem - Just seemed to be the best player.

2) Gervin - I'm pretty uncomfortable with him at 2 because I just am not a fan of pure scorers that don't do much else, but for now I am at the mercy of the stats, accolades, and what others have said so far in the thread. I'm hoping for much more discussion about him moving forward, and maybe this vote could change.

3) Erving - He was almost a unanimous #2 behind Kareem in 1980, and though his regular season stats are a bit down they are still very good. He also had an outstanding postseason.

4) Moses - Ranking Mo is always a question of by how much did his strengths overcome his weaknesses. By this point he's putting up great rebounding and scoring numbers, but his defense seems pretty terrible and I'm not sure that his overall impact is there. Another case when I'd really love to see some +/- stats, because as True LA and Mufasa point out, a legitimate MVP with a reasonable supporting cast should not get swept with home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs barring some kind of special circumstance.

5) Marques Johnson. Vote is still in flux, and depending on what I learn in the next couple of days Elvin Hayes and Dennis Johnson are still in play here.

[ElGee]

SI Articles:

Kareem's opening season struggles: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Doc's struggles: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Interesting piece on Larry Kenon and the Spurs dynamic: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Some very high praise for Dandridge and the Bullets heading into the playoffs: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Kareem v Nuggets: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Hayes and the Bullets escape San Antonio: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Seattle-Phoenix: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Apr 16 roundup: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
Apr 23 roundup: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
May 7 roundup: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
May 21 roundup: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

[Dr Positivity]

I'm going to have to do some extra research for this year. I have no idea what to do with 2-5. On paper Moses seems like the #2 guy but I'm struggling with him anchoring such a trash defense. Gervin has a decent case. Marques is really not that far off from the 2 spot, he put up 26ppg on 55% shooting which was worse scoring than Gervin, but Marques was the better rebounder, passer, and defender easily. Also was 2nd in PER, I'm not a big fan of the stat, but it's noteable. Erving again looks pretty good on paper - 23/7/5, led a pretty good (for this parity filled year at least) 47 win team, had a good playoffs. Still wondering how he was completley ignored in the MVP and All-NBA votes, and for the latter got beat by Bob Dandridge and Walter Davis. I mean those guys are great players, but he's Julius Erving!

Should Westphal be getting more love? Dropped 24/6.5 on 53% shooting (.58 TS%), and 6.5apg looked better then than it does now, Paul actually ranked 5th in the league in the stat. Led one of the best teams in the league in the Suns who made it to game 7 of the WCF. 1st team All-NBA. Always thought Westphal was a little underrated. Had to chance to join the best player on a title winner group in 76 and 79 which would've made him 10x more famous.

Couple noteable statistical accomplishments: World B. Free dropped 29ppg on .55 TS% on a 43 win team. Probably not making my list, but worth HM I guess. Also had 30ppg in '80, don't think his name was posted once in that thread. So I'll give a double HM to him here. Also Kevin Porter randomly averaged 13.4apg. His next best assist seasons other than '79 he averaged 10.2.

Gus Williams had a pretty sick playoffs averaging 27ppg overall and 29ppg in the Finals, where he led the team in scoring every game. For all the hype we give to best player on title winners, it's amazing someone could drop 29ppg in the Finals for a champion and have absolutely 0 name recognition. I think both Gus and Westphal were just 5-8 years too early. NBA was at its lowest point popularity wise with the NBA Finals on tape delay starting at 11:30. If he had a playoffs/Finals like that in 1984-1987 he'd be 100x more popular considering he also had a very exciting game (one of the fastest guys ever, lots of penetrating to the rim and beating guys off the dribble). From what I've seen of those late 70s Sonics, Gus may not have been their best player, but he was the one that 'made them go' like how Rondo is the key to the Celtics

[Dr Positivity]

Reading over those Finals recaps, Seattle's old stadium could hold 35,000? That would be crazy for the road team

[Sedale Threatt]

The King Dome, if I'm not mistaken -- a football stadium.

[ElGee]

Given that the 70s are like the Dark Ages of basketball for me, I'm trying to gather as much info as I can. From a run through the google news archives:

Philadelphia-New Jersey
G1: Doc 28 pts 14 reb 6 ast
G2: Doc 19 pts (17 in 2nd half). Started 0-10!

Atlanta-Houston
G1: Moses 18 points 27 rebounds.
G2: Moses 21 points. 0 in 4th

Lakers-Nuggets
G1: Kareem 23 pts
G2: Kareem 32 pts.
G3: Kareem 13-19 29 pts 16 reb 8 steals 6 blocks and GW hook. Called by many his best game as a Laker (at the time).

Suns-Kings
G3: 22 from Davis.
G5 : Davis 17 pts. Wesphal 26.


Bullets-Hawks
G1+G2:: Dandridge 66 total points.
G3: Hayes 19 pts (0 4th) 14 reb. Dandridge 15 pts.
G4: Dandridge 15 of 29 in 4th quarter including tying shot w/15 seconds left. Hayes 31 pts.
G7: Dandridge 19 of 29 in 4th, 14 of game's final 16 for Dandridge. Hayes 39 points 15 rebounds 3 blocks on 17-34 shooting in 48 min. Was 50-37 reb edge and 25-14 OReb edge.
*For series: Dandridge 23.6 ppg Hayes 23.4 ppg

Sonics-Lakers
G2: DJ hits a jumper at buzzer to force OT. Gus with 38 pts on 33 FGA's, and the GW shot w/52 left in OT. DJ 6 of 17 in OT.
G4 Sea LA: Gus and DJ “have tormented LA in series” (AP) - Gus 94 pts in first 3 games. 30 pts in G4. DJ, 61 pts in first 3 games, 23 more in G4. Kareem had 31 pts 13 reb. Jack Sikma 16 pts.
G5 Sea LA: Gus w/10 FT's in 4th Q. Williams had 30. Kareem with 25 pts. DJ 21 pts. Sikma 5 pts.
*LA outrebounded 248-182 in 5 games.

Gus Williams season splits:
1st half 15.3 ppg .457 FG%
2nd half 22.1 ppg .519 FG%

Sea-Pho G7: Williams 16 points, winner with 54 sconds left. DJ 23 points.

Spurs-76ers
G1+G2: Gervin 60 points on 25-37 shooting. Erving 25 points in G2. Bobby Jones was supposedly going to guard Gervin for the rest of the series after this game (Doug Collins injured).
G3: Erving 39 pts 9 reb. Gervin 24 pts.
G4: Gervin 32 pts. Doc with just 15 pts, 6-17 FG's in 31 minutes. Erving was “limited by Kenon.” Billy C after the game: “I didn't use Julius more because he couldn't get going.”
G7: Gervin 33 pts. Erving 34 pts.

Bullets-Spurs
G1: Dandridge 27 points.
G2: Hayes jammed his finger 2 minutes in. Gervin 34 points. Dandridge 19. Hayes 15.
G3: Hayes 15 pts 7-20 3-6 FT's. Dandrige 28 points and "held" Kenon to 11 points. Gervin 29 points.
G4: Gervin 42 points, 20 in 3rd (18 in a row). Dandridge 6 points.
G5: Hayes 24 pts 22 rebounds. Dandridge 13 points. *Doug Moe doubled Dandridge and Hayes a lot. The Bullets "started doubling Gervin near the lane.” 28 points for Gervin.
G6: Hayes 25 pts. Gervin 20 pts (guarded by Dandridge and Grevey).
G7: Gervin 42 points: 8 in 1st half, 34 in 2nd half. Hayes blocked Silas with 4 seconds left. Dandridge 37 points, 11 in 4th, including GW shot w/8 seconds. Hayes 23 points. *A number of reports note Greg Ballard abusing Ice downlow down the stretch bc SAS couldn't put him on Dandridge. 19-12 for Ballard in the game.

AP report on Dandridge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LA ... ayes&hl=en

“He may be the best pressure player in the league,” said Bernie Bickerstaff.
Doug Moe also felt he was the key to the Bullets.

[Dr Positivity]

Thanks, ElGee!

[penbeast0]

No superteams this year. Top teams are the Bullets, Sonics, and perennial runners-up Suns (3rd best record in NBA all-time; zero championships)

Bullets were Elvin Hayes’s team. Unseld was the captain and local favorite, Dandridge had a terrific year, but there is no question Hayes led this team. He had 22pts, 12 rebounds every night, played 82 games, shot a decent 49% from the field (unlike some years), led the team in FTA, was the center of the defense with good man defense and 2+ blocks – a legit MVP contender though his shooting percentage dropped in the playoffs..

The Sonics had their normal balanced attach with no 20ppg scorers; no one even made an All-NBA team and only DJ made the All-D team. No real MVP candidates although both the Wizard and DJ raised their scoring considerably in the playoffs (though again, not with great efficiency).

Phoenix had scorers Paul Westphal and Walter Davis and both were terrific but neither play both ways well and Alvin Adams just wasn’t big enough at center plus all 3 slipped in the playoffs. Like Seattle, marginal MVP candidates rather than strong ones.

There were a bunch of other teams over .500 . . . I will look briefly at each (if a player doesn’t lead his team over .500 or to the conference finals, I find it hard to call that an MVP performance though it happens).

San Antonio was the 4th conference finalist and though Kenon and Silas were both good, this was George Gervin’s team. As usual he “only” scored but he put in 30ppg on .540 shooting (though the Spurs did play the fastest tempo in the league). He’s a candidate and will be in my top 5 somewhere.

Kansas City again did well, tieing for the 4th best record with Otis Birdsong as their only 20pg scorer. But he wasn’t as explosive or efficient as Gervin (or Westphal or Walter Davis for that matter) and no one else is a serious candidate.

Philly, Denver, Houston, and the Lakers were one game back of SA and KC. Philly and LA won their first round, the other two lost.

LA had Kareem in a typical year (stats similar to Hayes but more efficient and better passer) surrounded by decent talent: Wilkes, Nixon, plus Dantley, Lou Hudson, Ron Boone, Kenny Carr, Jim Price . . . they underperformed like most years pre-Magic so Kareem slides a bit below where his stats would otherwise take him. (It is odd that Kareem’s best statistical years don’t seem to correlate as well with wins as even Wilt but everyone ignores that in the glitter and glow of Showtime).

Philadelphia is Erving’s team. Good support from Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks, plus Caldwell Jones, Darryl Dawkins, Steve Mix – they did lose Doug Collins for half the year with Henry Bibby overmatched in his spot. Erving is a candidate too.

Houston is Moses with another monster stat year (25pts, led league in rebounding). I’m not as sold on his supporting cast as others seem to be. Calvin Murphy, Rudy Tomjanovich, Rick Barry, Mike Newlin . . . all talented offensive players but where’s the defense? Robert Reid is the only one even trying out there of the top players. Moses’s numbers put him in the mix – they are more impressive than Kareem’s and he did nearly as much with less support.

Denver is David Thompson and the end of George McGinnis . . . plus, like Houston, more offensive firepower in Dan Issel and Charlie Scott but despite Larry Brown as coach, no real defense. Thompson is getting erratic with the drug issues starting up and McGinnis is just “George being George”; I don’t think any of their big 3 will be in my top 5.

Atlanta, Portland and the Nets were the other playoff teams although New Jersey was under .500 (Clippers were over .500 but didn’t make playoffs in West). Atlanta had terrific defenders in Dan Roundfield, Fast Eddie Johnson, and Tree Rollins but no real go-to scorer although John Drew posted his usual good numbers. Portland still had the remains of their Walton led championship team, without Walton, but their best player was Maurice Lucas and he missed 15 games. No MVP votes here.

So, my votes:

1. Elvin Hayes – he carried this team for the second year in a row, despite Phil Chenier’s injuries and nearly won it again.
2. Moses Malone – the numbers
3. George Gervin – his team performed better than I though it would with Silas only 2/3 of his former self; Gervin as the star gets a lot of the credit
4. Kareem – still the most talented player in the league
5. Westphal – had to give some props to Seattle and Phoenix and he was the best of all those talented guards this year.