Who is the best PF in the NBA? [poll]

[Lionel Messi]

Yeah it's called sarcasm. Neither Bosh nor Randolph come close to Dirk, Gasol or Duncan. You must have thought that me calling you "Hollinger" was a compliment. It wasn't.

Bosh is definitely in that group of 4. Up until February when he got injured people were always arguing that he was the top PF int he league.

I know you didn't mean to put ZBO in there, but Bosh is much better than ZBo and definitely in that category of top PFs.

You're talking about the same group of individuals casting votes for Boozer, Big Al and J-Smoove. Just because they argue it, doesn't mean they have any idea WTF they're talking about. Bosh is a great player no doubt, but he's still a rung below Dirk, Gasol and Duncan right there with Stoudemire. It's not that he's a bad player by any means, he's just not on the same level as the other three. If you're gonna water down the list by propping up Bosh and throwing him into the mix just for the hell of it then you may as well include Stoudemire and make it a top five. Chris Bosh hasn't done anything meaningful in his time in Toronto to warrant being included in the discussion of top PF in the game.

But he's a better defender, rebounder AND scorer than Amar'e.

[bruddahmanmatt]

You're talking about the same group of individuals casting votes for Boozer, Big Al and J-Smoove. Just because they argue it, doesn't mean they have any idea WTF they're talking about. Bosh is a great player no doubt, but he's still a rung below Dirk, Gasol and Duncan right there with Stoudemire. It's not that he's a bad player by any means, he's just not on the same level as the other three. If you're gonna water down the list by propping up Bosh and throwing him into the mix just for the hell of it then you may as well include Stoudemire and make it a top five. Chris Bosh hasn't done anything meaningful in his time in Toronto to warrant being included in the discussion of top PF in the game.

But he's a better defender, rebounder AND scorer than Amar'e.

Way to miss the point entirely. If you're gonna water down the list and include Bosh, you may as well include Amar'e because Dirk, Pau and Duncan are better than Bosh at all of those things you just listed Bosh being better at than Stoudemire.

Let's put it this way. Name the top three players out of Dirk, Gasol, Duncan and Bosh. If CB is on your list you're lying to yourself. All you're doing is moving the line and saying "let's make it a top four instead of a top three so that Bosh can be included in the discussion".

[Lionel Messi]

You're talking about the same group of individuals casting votes for Boozer, Big Al and J-Smoove. Just because they argue it, doesn't mean they have any idea WTF they're talking about. Bosh is a great player no doubt, but he's still a rung below Dirk, Gasol and Duncan right there with Stoudemire. It's not that he's a bad player by any means, he's just not on the same level as the other three. If you're gonna water down the list by propping up Bosh and throwing him into the mix just for the hell of it then you may as well include Stoudemire and make it a top five. Chris Bosh hasn't done anything meaningful in his time in Toronto to warrant being included in the discussion of top PF in the game.

But he's a better defender, rebounder AND scorer than Amar'e.

Way to miss the point entirely. If you're gonna water down the list and include Bosh, you may as well include Amar'e because Dirk, Pau and Duncan are better than Bosh at all of those things you just listed Bosh being better at than Stoudemire.

Let's put it this way. Name the top three players out of Dirk, Gasol, Duncan and Bosh. If CB is on your list you're lying to yourself. All you're doing is moving the line and saying "let's make it a top four instead of a top three so that Bosh can be included in the discussion".

No, if Im honest with yourself and you're honest with yourself, what exactly separated Bosh and Dirk last year? 1ppg in favour of Dirk, and 3 rpg in favour of Bosh.
If you're honest with yourself, Bosh can certainly be argued over Dirk, and obviously the same can be said with Duncan and Pau. Amare? No comparison, Bosh is simply better.

Dirk won more games, but he had a much better supporting cast, much much better.

The only time Bosh had a half-decent supporting cast (TJ Ford, Calderon, and role players) he won 47 games.

Bosh is a top 2 PF in the league.

2nd best scorer among those 5 players. Has had a better rebound % than Pau the past 5 years. Is a better defender than Dirk. Worse passer than Pau/Duncan/Dirk.

So why does he always get so underrated? He should never even be mentioned with guys like Randolph and Boozer, it's an insult to all the hard work he puts in and the amount of skill he possesses.

ETA: Wait, did you just say that Bosh is a worse scorer than Duncan/Pau? I love Duncan, he's great, but Bosh is a better scorer.
18ppg on 56TS%<<<<24ppg on 59TS%
Pau has NEVER hit over 21ppg in his career, and Bosh hasn't been under 22ppg since his sophomore year.

Come on now.

[NYK 455]

Gasol/Dirk
Duncan

[Mourning_Would]

Can't believe Dirk only got an 83 in NBA 2K11

He still dropped 30 on me and i was contesting every shot. Hes like a 50% shooter contested 100% uncontested. I denied him the ball, but when he got it his fade away was too quick, and his regular shot while slow, and almost being blocked never even touched the rim.It is silk.

[kaulkhara15]

It's still Timmy IMO, followed by Dirk.

[thedagger]

durant

[JCWalters]

Just glanced at the first page and the posts have narrowed into a 3 way debate--Duncan, Nowitz, Gasol.

If the question is who is the best PF based on last season, then it is CLEARLY Duncan. By PER, Duncan is better than both by over 1 PER. And for the biggest variable that PER does not cover--defense--Duncan is still one of the best defenders in the L, nevermind for just PF. Certainly, on defense, Duncan >>> Gasol >>> Nowitzki.

=========> Duncan is better than either Gasol or Now. (As for between Gasol and Nowit, it is a tossup; Nowit is better on O and Gasol is better on D)

[bruddahmanmatt]

Way to miss the point entirely. If you're gonna water down the list and include Bosh, you may as well include Amar'e because Dirk, Pau and Duncan are better than Bosh at all of those things you just listed Bosh being better at than Stoudemire.

Let's put it this way. Name the top three players out of Dirk, Gasol, Duncan and Bosh. If CB is on your list you're lying to yourself. All you're doing is moving the line and saying "let's make it a top four instead of a top three so that Bosh can be included in the discussion".

No, if Im honest with yourself and you're honest with yourself, what exactly separated Bosh and Dirk last year? 1ppg in favour of Dirk, and 3 rpg in favour of Bosh.
If you're honest with yourself, Bosh can certainly be argued over Dirk, and obviously the same can be said with Duncan and Pau. Amare? No comparison, Bosh is simply better.

Dirk won more games, but he had a much better supporting cast, much much better.

The only time Bosh had a half-decent supporting cast (TJ Ford, Calderon, and role players) he won 47 games.

Bosh is a top 2 PF in the league.

2nd best scorer among those 5 players. Has had a better rebound % than Pau the past 5 years. Is a better defender than Dirk. Worse passer than Pau/Duncan/Dirk.

So why does he always get so underrated? He should never even be mentioned with guys like Randolph and Boozer, it's an insult to all the hard work he puts in and the amount of skill he possesses.

ETA: Wait, did you just say that Bosh is a worse scorer than Duncan/Pau? I love Duncan, he's great, but Bosh is a better scorer.
18ppg on 56TS%<<<<24ppg on 59TS%
Pau has NEVER hit over 21ppg in his career, and Bosh hasn't been under 22ppg since his sophomore year.

Come on now.

Ok Hollinger, you keep on quoting PPG like stats tell the whole story and that a few more PPG grants CB entry into the club with the other three. Gasol has averaged anywhere from 1.5-3.5 fewer FGA per game than Bosh throughout his career. BOSH SHOULD BE PUTTING UP MORE POINTS considering he puts up more shots. And I love your Hollingeresque use of TS% like it also tells the whole story. Gasol has only averaged less than 50 FG% once in his entire nine year career. Bosh has only averaged over 50 FG% twice in his entire seven year career. See what I did there? What a joke.

Beyond that there isn't a chance in hell that Bosh carries his team the way Dirk does, dominates like Timmy D. did during his prime or becomes the best #2 option in the game the way Gasol has after coming to LA. Dude took his team NOWHERE when he was in Toronto. At least Gasol has the excuse of having to face a 57 win San Antonio team fresh off of a championship run, a 62 win Phoenix team and a 60 win Dallas team that would eventually make its way to the Finals the year the Grizz faced them in the playoffs. There's a reason why NO ONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD is including Bosh in the discussion. You're the only one arguing in favor of him as everyone else has already narrowed it down to the aforementioned trio. You're on your own here. Bosh put up big numbers on a scrub team. If he is as great as you claim, guy should have at least been able to make it into the second round in a ridiculously depleted Eastern Conference.

The fact that you actually have the nerve to list him as a top 2 PF in the league is a joke because there's no way in hell he's better than any let alone two out of the three of Dirk, Pau or Timmy D. A top 2 PF should have done much better than Bosh's pathetic showing in the postseason during his seven year tenure in Toronto, especially in the weak a*s East.

[Lionel Messi]

Ok Hollinger, you keep on quoting PPG like stats tell the whole story and that a few more PPG grants CB entry into the club with the other three. Gasol has averaged anywhere from 1.5-3.5 fewer FGA per game than Bosh throughout his career. BOSH SHOULD BE PUTTING UP MORE POINTS considering he puts up more shots. And I love your Hollingeresque use of TS% like it also tells the whole story. Gasol has only averaged less than 50 FG% once in his entire nine year career. Bosh has only averaged over 50 FG% twice in his entire seven year career. See what I did there? What a joke.

TS% is probably the best way to measure scoring efficiency. FG% is obviously a less accurate measure. Hollinger my ass, I'm using the stats to back up what I see not the other way around.

Beyond that there isn't a chance in hell that Bosh carries his team the way Dirk does, dominates like Timmy D. did during his prime

There isn't a single PF in the history of the NBA that would dominate like Duncan did in his prime, since when are we using prime Duncan for this? If we were, there wouldn't be a single vote for anyone but him.
Who is Dirk carrying? Players that are much better and fit around him much better than what Bosh ever had.

Again, the only season Bosh had a somewhat balanced roster and ONE other good starter (TJ Ford)
the Raptors won 47 games, the rest of the time his supporting casts were ASS.

or becomes the best #2 option in the game the way Gasol has after coming to LA.

Bosh has been the second option all preseason for the Heat and he's been amazing, many Heat fans even think he could lead the team in scoring and be extremely efficient while doing so.

Dude took his team NOWHERE when he was in Toronto. At least Gasol has the excuse of having to face a 57 win San Antonio team fresh off of a championship run, a 62 win Phoenix team and a 60 win Dallas team that would eventually make its way to the Finals the year the Grizz faced them in the playoffs. There's a reason why NO ONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD is including Bosh in the discussion. You're the only one arguing in favor of him as everyone else has already narrowed it down to the aforementioned trio. You're on your own here. Bosh put up big numbers on a scrub team. If he is as great as you claim, guy should have at least been able to make it into the second round in a ridiculously depleted Eastern Conference.

The fact that you actually have the nerve to list him as a top 2 PF in the league is a joke because there's no way in hell he's better than any let alone two out of the three of Dirk, Pau or Timmy D. A top 2 PF should have done much better than Bosh's pathetic showing in the postseason during his seven year tenure in Toronto, especially in the weak a*s East.

Great, well let's put a cast of below average players around one of those guys for the first time in their careers and see how they do.

TJ Ford, who is now a bench warmer on the Pacers, is arguably the best teammate Bosh has ever had. Him or Mike James (:lol:)

I honestly don't care that I'm the only guy here that actually watches Bosh play and doesn't listen to idiots like Gary Payton or Stephen A Smith or whoever to make up their mind. Once the season is on I'll be the one laughing my ass off while people start saying, "omg, did Bosh get better or something I didn't know he could do this stuff!?".
It's already happening on the Heat board.

Gasol has become ridiculously overrated. The guy is a very good low post scorer, very good passer, solid low post defender and passable on help defence, but he plays on the Lakers so people start acting like he's the best big man in the league (ya, there was a giant thread about it during the playoffs).

[bruddahmanmatt]

TS% is probably the best way to measure scoring efficiency. FG% is obviously a less accurate measure. Hollinger my ass, I'm using the stats to back up what I see not the other way around.

"Probably the best way". Why is it "probably the best way"? Spoken like someone who has no idea WTH TS% represents. TS% takes into account a player's free throw attempts and FT%. LOOK at Duncan and Bosh's FG% for last season. Both guys shot 51.8% from the floor but Duncan did so on 2.5 fewer attempts. Chris Bosh shot a solid 79.7% from the free throw line on 590 attempts while Tim Duncan shot an average at best 72.5% on only 374 attempts from the line. The difference in their TS% is the result of Bosh getting to the FT line more often and hitting for a higher percentage from the stripe. His getting to the line more frequently can be explained by two things. First, there's the aforementioned difference of 2.5 FGA taken between Bosh and Duncan. Bosh is taking more attempts than Duncan thus it's logical to expect that he'll make it to the stripe more often. Secondly, Duncan doesn't have anywhere near the amount of explosiveness that he did in his prime, nor does he have the explosiveness that Bosh has off the dribble, thus he doesn't get to line anywhere near as often as Bosh. Typically as players get older, they tend to shoot over their guy as opposed to running through him in an attempt to draw contact. The two most important things that TS% tells us in this case is that

1. Bosh gets to the line more often than Duncan which isn't surprising given Bosh's superior athleticism at this point in their careers and the fact that Chris takes more attempts than Timmy D.

2. Bosh hits for a higher percentage from the stripe. Again, not much of a surprise given that Bosh has always been a better FT shooter than Duncan. 79.7 Career FT% for Bosh versus 68.7 Career FT% for Duncan.

Congratulations. Bosh can plow into defenders and draw fouls at a higher rate than Duncan, therefore Bosh > Duncan since Bosh has a higher TS%. The rest of your post is just mindless banter about how poor widdle Boshy Woshy had it so bad in the weak, depleted pusscake East so I won't even bother. Again, I get where you're coming from, but Bosh hasn't proved anything yet. Just like STAT's first year in New York, CB's first year in Miami will do a lot as far as his reputation is concerned. Now that he actually has some decent teammates, we'll get a better idea of he's truly made of, just as we'll find out what STAT is made of without Nash. Thing is, to give Bosh the benefit of the doubt beforehand is just ridiculous. The man needs to EARN the right to stand next to the three guys everyone else seems to agree make up the best PF trio in the NBA at the moment. I fail to see why the guy should get a free pass despite not having much to show for himself during the years he spent in Toronto.

[MSGBallerz]

Tim Duncan. Defense is half the game.

[ipoopinmypants]

Tim Duncan. Defense is half the game.

I'm somewhat inclined to feel this way as well, but what Dirk brings on offense is more valuable at this point in Tim's career than what physical defensive ability he has left in those legs. His brain is his greatest asset at this point.

[F1uxCapacit0r]

Duncan is the best 2-way player out of the three. Hes still good enough to score 20 on any given night as well as do a darn good job guarding the post. Until bosh is at least an adequate defender he's not in the same level. Bosh is decent at help defense but man to man is just horrible. he is constantly blown by from the opposing teams PF

[Lionel Messi]

TS% is probably the best way to measure scoring efficiency. FG% is obviously a less accurate measure. Hollinger my ass, I'm using the stats to back up what I see not the other way around.

"Probably the best way". Why is it "probably the best way"? Spoken like someone who has no idea WTH TS% represents.

I know exactly what TS% represents. I only said probably in case there was some other, arguably better way to measure scoring efficiency.

Congratulations. Bosh can plow into defenders and draw fouls at a higher rate than Duncan, therefore Bosh > Duncan since Bosh has a higher TS%. The rest of your post is just mindless banter about how poor widdle Boshy Woshy had it so bad in the weak, depleted pusscake East so I won't even bother. Again, I get where you're coming from, but Bosh hasn't proved anything yet. Just like STAT's first year in New York, CB's first year in Miami will do a lot as far as his reputation is concerned. Now that he actually has some decent teammates, we'll get a better idea of he's truly made of, just as we'll find out what STAT is made of without Nash. Thing is, to give Bosh the benefit of the doubt beforehand is just ridiculous. The man needs to EARN the right to stand next to the three guys everyone else seems to agree make up the best PF trio in the NBA at the moment. I fail to see why the guy should get a free pass despite not having much to show for himself during the years he spent in Toronto.

See, what you're basically saying is, "We're not exactly sure how he'll do on the Heat, he'll probably do great, because people who watch him a lot and understand his game say so, but why give him the benefit of the doubt?"
Which basically means you haven't watched Bosh enough to make an educated assumption that he's going to kill it this year and he killed it last year, and the numbers show exactly that.

I only use numbers because I know everyone on here just goes around saying stupid sh*t like, "Bosh is soft, plays no defence, pads stats whatever" just because it's the easy and popular thing to say.
If I actually talk to someone who knows anything about Bosh's game, the debate will be far more interesting than me posting stats.

[bruddahmanmatt]

I know exactly what TS% represents. I only said probably in case there was some other, arguably better way to measure scoring efficiency.

Umm...no you didn't. If you had, you wouldn't have used such a meaningless (in this case) stat in a desperate attempt to illustrate how Bosh is supposedly superior to Duncan. Using TS% in this case puts a slant on things since Duncan has never really been a great FT shooter (whereas Bosh is a very good FT shooter) and since he hasn't been getting to the line nearly as often in the past half-decade due to his declining athleticism. It's generally a bad statistic to use as a measure when you're comparing a younger player to an older one since as I pointed out, older players tend to avoid contact and not be able to get to the line as frequently nor as easily. Advanced metrics can be good tools in measuring a player's performance, but only if you use them properly. Oftentimes using them to compare one player to another skews things since (as in this case) the figures don't account for a player's tendencies on the floor such as Duncan's inability (due to declining athleticism) to get to the line as often as he used to or as often as Bosh who still has his youth. You're not gonna start comparing these two using PER are you?

See, what you're basically saying is, "We're not exactly sure how he'll do on the Heat, he'll probably do great, because people who watch him a lot and understand his game say so, but why give him the benefit of the doubt?"
Which basically means you haven't watched Bosh enough to make an educated assumption that he's going to kill it this year and he killed it last year, and the numbers show exactly that.

I only use numbers because I know everyone on here just goes around saying stupid sh*t like, "Bosh is soft, plays no defence, pads stats whatever" just because it's the easy and popular thing to say.
If I actually talk to someone who knows anything about Bosh's game, the debate will be far more interesting than me posting stats.

Uhh, no. It means, guy hasn't done s**t his entire career in a weak conference. I mean you'd think that a guy you claim is sooooooo great could have and would have at least carried his team to a second round series by now in a ridiculously depleted conference. Everyone talks about "ohhhhhhh my God, LBJ carried a team of scrubs to a great record blah blah". If Chris Bosh is so great as you claim, 47 wins and only ONE season out of seven OVER .500? Are you f**king kidding me? What a joke.

Your excuse for pointing at stats is also laughable. No one told you to go out of your way and use TS% as the reasoning behind your claim that Bosh is better than Duncan. LOL. You did that one all by yourself. Hahahahahaha. Come on man. Don't make excuses for your argument after the fact. Just admit that you were wrong in using an advanced statistic which you didn't fully understand. "Oh I only use stats when I'm talking to people who don't know, but when I'm talking to people who do know, I discuss things more thoroughly". LOL. WTH is that? "Oh, oh, I just dumb down my argument when I'm talking to people who disagree with me". Your argument should be the same regardless of who you're talking to. Face it, you pointed at stats because you thought they'd support your opinion and "prove me wrong", they didn't and they don't.

[tsherkin]

My $0.02

I don't consider Duncan a PF, I consider him a C, so that's why I exclude him from this conversation. If I didn't, he'd be right up there, but I don't, so I'm not going to talk about him.

For me, that leaves the only three players to discuss as Bosh, Dirk and Gasol.

Pau Gasol is a very good player. He's a nice mix of post game and big perimeter ability. Very good passer, much-improved rebounder, good defender, etc. He's better now than he was in Memphis because he's a second option and has more opportunity to focus on certain things, and because the offense is explicitly designed to favor players of his type. He's not a dominant scorer, not a guy who can anchor a franchise to the highest levels of success, IMO, but he's a brilliant second star.

I think that one must respect his contributions to L.A., but at the same time recognize what it means to have a player of much greater caliber pinning down the team and how that enables him to do what he does. I like Pau as a player, absolutely love watching him play, but I don't think he's the best PF in the league. 2nd or 3rd? Yeah, absolutely. He's better than any non-Dirk/Bosh player at that position, regardless of role. Better than Booz, Jefferson (natural 4, anyhow), Z-Bo, any of them. Very good player. A touch overrated now because he plays for the Lakers and how successful they've been the last three years. Absolutely incredible fit in the triangle and great chemistry with that team.

Bosh, even though he's going to have a statistically unimpressive season as a scorer once Wade comes back, is no less talented than he has been for the last 5 years. This past season, however, is not a typical Bosh season. That was a contract season where he had a super-hot start and had an absolutely blazing beginning to the season. Great overall performance, but not the sort of thing you expect from him year in and year out. Good player. Not the greatest at moving the ball, doesn't facilitate a quick-hitting offense, but he's uber-efficient and he puts in the effort. Say what you like about his thin frame, he's battled pretty hard for Toronto. Not a great defender, but not a bad one. Good, but not great rebounder. Good, but not outstanding, scorer. His scoring average was a bit deceptive last year, because he didn't have the impact typical of a player of that level of scoring. Not what I'd call a take-over scorer. I imagine he'd thrive more in a second-man role (as he's done thus far with Miami) than as a central scorer, but he did pretty damned well for Toronto for a while and without a lot of help.

I don't think he's the best PF in the league, though. This year, I'd be surprised if his averages deviated much from 16/11, though, he's going to have it really easy on offense and will have tons of energy to kill the glass (and a lot of help in that regard, too). He's going to have a great season. Still, he's not quite as good as Gasol. Certainly last season, he was better as a scoring threat than Gasol, but he's never been as diverse, nor as good a passer and he's certainly not been at the same level of defender (though with Zo coaching him and a lighter load on offense, that may change).

And that brings me to Dirk.

Barring regression due to age, which is possible, he's the guy that I think is still the best PF in the game. He's not the rebounder that the other two are... but he also plays on a very good defensive-rebounding team and his style of play precludes him being a good offensive rebounder. He's not a great defender, but he's no worse than Bosh.

For me, what sets him apart is his offensive game. He's pinned down a very successful Dallas team for a long time, and has made several significant changes in his game to compensate for a weakness that was exposed in 06 and 07 vividly. His postseason offense is better than either of those other two, and his regular season offense remains better.

Dirk is basically the best volume shooter from 16-23 feet in the league and remains a very good 3pt shooter, an elite FT shooter and still capable of drawing a fair number of FTAs on any given night with his drives and post game. He has a game that ages extremely well, too, which is big. He is a takeover scorer. Even last year, when he was "only" 1 ppg ahead of Bosh (that's still a significant barrier, though, because it was the 24-to-25 barrier), Nowitzki scored 30+ in a larger proportion of his games, about 5% more often. He also had three 40+-point games to Bosh's 2, but Chris only played 70 games to Dirk's 81, so that might've been different if Bosh had been healthier. Of course, Bosh might not have maintained his lofty average had he played 10+ more games.

In any case, Dirk is a more dangerous scorer. He can work faster, he has more scoring zones than Bosh (even under the arc, but also mindful of the 3 being a consistently useful tool for Dirk), and Nowitzki is way clutch, which is something you can't really say about Bosh. Certainly, I don't mean to say that Bosh is a liability or that he's not capable of clutch play, but The Diggler is actually a noted crunch-time performer. And again, playoff offense HEAVILY favors Dirk, who's been much, much better in the postseason than Bosh and of course, he's a much deadlier scorer than Gasol period.

So, barring a notable regression from Dirk, he's still the guy I'd choose.

Remember, this is a guy who's scored 25+ ppg 5 times in his career and is one of the very few players to have scored 25+ ppg while being over 6'9. Only 15 players in league history have qualified for the scoring title, played 40+ games and scored 25+ ppg while being 6'10 or taller. Only 13 of them have done is since Kareem did it in 80-81 (so not including that season).

Only FOUR of them have done it 5+ times (Dirk, Shaq, Wilt and Kareem).

Now, Dirk's a 58% TS player in the regular season, which is elite. In the playoffs, he's a 25.6 ppg, 10.9 rpg player on 57.9% TS. He loses almost no efficiency and scores around the level of his best regular-season scoring efforts. This past year in that first-round loss, he rocked 26.7 ppg (and way lower-than-usual rebounding because of Kidd, Marion and Dampier/Haywood, 3 of whom averaged 6+ rpg in the playoffs while Dirk still led the team).

On 64.3% TS.

He is a DOMINANT playoff scoring threat, which is absolutely not true of these other guys. That's the big separation, and that's why he gets the nod here. Dirk is a big-time (and underrated) playoff performer. He's HUGE in the playoffs on a regular basis and he is the most dominant scoring big man since Shaq, which is impressive, to say the least.

Neither Bosh nor Gasol has the wherewithal to take over a game on offense the way Dirk does on a regular basis, nor the ability to produce in the clutch to the same level.

[Lionel Messi]

I know exactly what TS% represents. I only said probably in case there was some other, arguably better way to measure scoring efficiency.

Umm...no you didn't. If you had, you wouldn't have used such a meaningless (in this case) stat in a desperate attempt to illustrate how Bosh is supposedly superior to Duncan. Using TS% in this case puts a slant on things since Duncan has never really been a great FT shooter (whereas Bosh is a very good FT shooter) and since he hasn't been getting to the line nearly as often in the past half-decade due to his declining athleticism. It's generally a bad statistic to use as a measure when you're comparing a younger player to an older one since as I pointed out, older players tend to avoid contact and not be able to get to the line as frequently nor as easily. Advanced metrics can be good tools in measuring a player's performance, but only if you use them properly. Oftentimes using them to compare one player to another skews things since (as in this case) the figures don't account for a player's tendencies on the floor such as Duncan's inability (due to declining athleticism) to get to the line as often as he used to or as often as Bosh who still has his youth. You're not gonna start comparing these two using PER are you?

Are we or are we not comparing CURRENT Duncan and CURRENT Bosh to eachother? If Duncan is a lesser free throw shooter and shoots less free throws than Bosh, isn't that an advantage Bosh has over Duncan as a player? If we were using PRIME Duncan, then I wouldn't be here, but obviously we aren't. We're using the Duncan that scored 18ppg last season, and less efficiently than Bosh did for his 24ppg.
Why does it matter if Duncan USED TO get to the line more? Are you completely oblivious to the fact that your argument keeps referring to PAST Duncan?

See, what you're basically saying is, "We're not exactly sure how he'll do on the Heat, he'll probably do great, because people who watch him a lot and understand his game say so, but why give him the benefit of the doubt?"
Which basically means you haven't watched Bosh enough to make an educated assumption that he's going to kill it this year and he killed it last year, and the numbers show exactly that.

I only use numbers because I know everyone on here just goes around saying stupid sh*t like, "Bosh is soft, plays no defence, pads stats whatever" just because it's the easy and popular thing to say.
If I actually talk to someone who knows anything about Bosh's game, the debate will be far more interesting than me posting stats.

Uhh, no. It means, guy hasn't done s**t his entire career in a weak conference. I mean you'd think that a guy you claim is sooooooo great could have and would have at least carried his team to a second round series by now in a ridiculously depleted conference. Everyone talks about "ohhhhhhh my God, LBJ carried a team of scrubs to a great record blah blah". If Chris Bosh is so great as you claim, 47 wins and only ONE season out of seven OVER .500? Are you f**king kidding me? What a joke.

Your excuse for pointing at stats is also laughable. No one told you to go out of your way and use TS% as the reasoning behind your claim that Bosh is better than Duncan. LOL. You did that one all by yourself. Hahahahahaha. Come on man. Don't make excuses for your argument after the fact. Just admit that you were wrong in using an advanced statistic which you didn't fully understand. "Oh I only use stats when I'm talking to people who don't know, but when I'm talking to people who do know, I discuss things more thoroughly". LOL. WTH is that? "Oh, oh, I just dumb down my argument when I'm talking to people who disagree with me". Your argument should be the same regardless of who you're talking to. Face it, you pointed at stats because you thought they'd support your opinion and "prove me wrong", they didn't and they don't.

What? Do you want me to start posting video evidence or something?

Your argument is the weakest **** I've ever seen. All you do is weakly try and put down the merit of TS % as a measure of scoring efficiency, continuously talk about how Duncan USED TO play, and then look at the record of Bosh's team. None of what you haev said actually refers to Bosh's play on the basketball court, you're going 100% on what you HEAR and what the reputation is.

You're the joke, pretending like you actually watch and know what you're talking about.

I never said Bosh was as good as LeBron did I? I said Bosh could definitely be argued over Duncan for 09/10, and you have yet to disprove that. Scrub.

I honestly never mind people putting Duncan over Bosh, I mean, he's earned that respect and he's still a great player, especially when you shorten the games down in a playoff format (the best PF in the league if we're going by just playoffs IMO).

[MSGBallerz]

Some of you are underrating KG big time. Healthy, he is the second best PF today behind Tim Duncan. It has been this way the past decade and that's not changing. Those are the only two power forwards in the NBA who can anchor the team on both offense and defense at an elite level.

[drza]

Some of you are underrating KG big time. Healthy, he is the second best PF today behind Tim Duncan. It has been this way the past decade and that's not changing. Those are the only two power forwards in the NBA who can anchor the team on both offense and defense at an elite level.

I was just about to make tyis post, but you beat me to it. Essentially, the biggest question with KG is whether what we saw last regular season is what we'll get this season? Is what we saw last postseason what we'll get this season? Or is he really rejuvenated the way the preseason hype machine suggests?

Either way, even last regular season, Garnett was still the best defensive power forward bar-none in the NBA. Then, in the postseason, he ratched it up much higher on that end of the floor.

Even in the postseason, though, there were 3 main areas where Garnett was noticeably weaker and would keep him out of the top slot in this poll: He had zero quick-jump (and thus couldn't clean the glass), he was extremely rusty with his post-moves, and his stamina wasn't where it should be. The thing is, all three of those allign extremely logically with what one might expect from an older player trying to recover in-season from knee surgery.

The preseason hype from Boston is that KG looks like he looked in '08. I don't know how much of that to believe, but I don't think he has to meet that standard to be the best PF in the league this year. If he merely is healthy enough that his jumping ability becomes adequate (as opposed to the brilliant it used to be or the terrible it was last year), if he was healthy enough this summer to train for long-term stamina as opposed to rehabbing like last summer, and if he was able to polish his offensive game over the summer instead of rehabbing...those three things would be enough, IMO, for him to reclaim his spot at the top. If they aren't there, then perhaps he really is what most of you think he is.

In the end, I don't think any of the current young/prime PFs are capable of reaching a level that Garnett/Duncan can't currently still reach. Dirk might be able to, depending more upon what everyone still has left in the tank. Gasol, Bosh, etc...they're really good, but Dirk is still better, and Garnett and Duncan probably still are as well.