Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009)

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drza
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#21 » by drza » Thu Feb 3, 2011 7:18 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Wow, KG's rebounding is shocking. His scoring isn't so bad that it makes a huge difference, he really doesn't drop off much from his regular play, but I'm shocked at his rebounding.

Small sample size, but still, that one is weird, because even when he's passing the ball, he's rebounding fiercely.



I just posted this on the actual blog, but I'll put it here too.

Again, the sample size is just way too small to make even any inferences off of. For example, in 2004 KG had only 4 "crunchtime" rebounds in 22 clutch minutes as defined by 82games. But out of the 7 close games this data came from, in 2 of them KG had a total of 6 more boards in the last 5 minutes of those close games that didn't count as "clutch" because the lead had gone up to 6 or 7 points". One of those games was his "legendary" game 7 against the Kings that came down to a last-second shot for OT...he grabbed 4 late boards, but only 1 of them counted as "clutch". If you actually count those 6 boards and those minutes in his clutch total, all of a sudden KG averages 12.9 rebounds/36 minutes in 2004 crunchtime instead of 6.5 and we're not having this conversation.

The whole reason we can use stats as somewhat reflective/predictive is because the law of large numbers suggests that noise like this will drop over a large enough sample. In a 2000 minute sample you can be fairly confident that the flukes will tend to work themselves out. In a 20 minute sample like 2004 Garnett's crunchtime, the noise can literally be bigger than the signal. You can't just caveat that as "small sampled"...it makes any conclusion meaningless.
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#22 » by ElGee » Thu Feb 3, 2011 8:26 pm

drza wrote:
ElGee wrote:I agree. My general take on KG in the clutch has pretty much been confirmed by every study I've seen. At his best in Minnesota, he was plenty aggressive and good. Made a bunch of big defensive plays too from what I recall. So his reputation was totally undeserved there. However, in 2008, he was just passive at the end of games. That could have been a learning curve in the new situation, but it was a justifiable criticism and one many Celtics fans had for most of the playoffs. (He stepped up near the end of the Finals, finally).


Can you really say that, though? In 2008 the Celtics played 51 minutes of crunchtime. If you look at the big 3:

KG took 24 shots in crunchtime, making 9 and getting fouled on 3 of the attempts.

Pierce took 17 shots, making one and getting fouled on 3 of the attempts.

Allen took 17 shots, making 3 and getting fouled on 2 of the attempts.

If we're going to make conclusions about passivity, shouldn't the fact that Garnett took more shots than either Pierce or Allen, and actually generated more points off those shots than Pierce and Allen combined in crunch-time actually suggest that he was being the exact opposite of passive?

Again, the sample size really wrecks any conclusions you could legitimately make. But it seems strange to use 2008 as an example of KG being passive in crunchtime, when you consider that outside of intentional fouls he was by-FAR the biggest clutch scorer on those Celtics despite the presence of 2 players generally regarded as among the most big-time closers of their generation.


Hmm - I never thought of it terms of the big 3 since his numbers decline relative to himself. I suppose then it wouldn't be fair to call it outright passiveness. Still, we have 51 minutes with low rebounding and without an assist, and from what I recall some shaky moments at the start of the playoffs. Not the greatest game and a half worth of run. It's not really worth it go back through the games, but my recollection is in the first 2 series KG was justly criticized for passivity down the stretch. (I originally said until the FInals, but I believe he had some huge moments in the Detroit series which I had overlooked, no?)
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#23 » by JordansBulls » Fri Feb 4, 2011 12:41 am

ElGee wrote:I've compiled the 82games clutch stats for the playoffs (available from 2004-2009). http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/03 ... f-numbers/

That's last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer. Unfortunately, the samples are pretty small. The take home: it's even harder to shoot in the clutch in the postseason than in the regular season.

LeBron reigns supreme (again). And for the three or four Laker fans on the board, Kobe does well again here. Enjoy.


Not sure why you think Lebron is clutch in the playoffs over that span and Wade not?
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#24 » by kabstah » Fri Feb 4, 2011 12:49 am

You didn't actually read the linked article did you? I mean, 9 more points PER36 on 9% higher TS% seems like a pretty good reason to me.
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#25 » by kooldude » Fri Feb 4, 2011 1:20 am

I dont think any amount of statistics or blatant evidence can convince ppl that Lebron had historic impact the last few years.
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Re: Playoff Clutch Numbers (2004-2009) 

Post#26 » by Rapcity_11 » Fri Feb 4, 2011 1:43 am

JordansBulls wrote:
ElGee wrote:I've compiled the 82games clutch stats for the playoffs (available from 2004-2009). http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/03 ... f-numbers/

That's last 5 minutes of a 5-point game or closer. Unfortunately, the samples are pretty small. The take home: it's even harder to shoot in the clutch in the postseason than in the regular season.

LeBron reigns supreme (again). And for the three or four Laker fans on the board, Kobe does well again here. Enjoy.


Not sure why you think Lebron is clutch in the playoffs over that span and Wade not?


I'm sorry what? Did you actually look at the numbers?

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