Where does Kevin Garnett rank all-time?

[NYK 455]

KG is Top 40, maybe Top 30. I have Dirk slighty ahead of him, frankly.

ROFL

[SDChargers#1]

I have Garnett right around 19-20 all time.

He is not better than Malone, Barkley, or Duncan.

I saw someone say that Garnett had ridiculously efficiency? Uh, no, no he doesn't. He has a career 54.9% TS. In other words, less than Kobe Bryant who so many on this site call a chucker.

Yes he is a great rebounder and a great passer and a better defender than all the above outside of Duncan.

However, he doesn't compare offensively to Malone or Barkley. Any advantage he has from defense is negated by what those guys could do on offense. MUCH MUCH better scorers, and MUCH (especially in Barkley's case) more efficient. And they were no slouches at rebounding or passing either.

[ElGee]

Hmmm. There was a lot of negativity toward Garnett because his team didn't win in Minnesota. A lot. It's the same negativity Tracy McGrady has never shed. In a nutshell...

KG's one of the greatest help/team defenders of all-time. He thinks about defense as a interactive 5-piece unit, constantly communicating that to teammates, and it's the reason why he's able to make so many clutch/key defensive plays. Steals and blocks down the stretch have been a staple of his for years, and his play against Jeffries the other night is a good example of how high-level is defense is:

Anthony's doubled, so he rotates to Jeffries, but instead of going for the block, he knows there will be a cutter behind him (who another Celtic needs to rotate to). He knows Jeffries isn't a scorer, so he puts his left hand in the logical passing lane to protect for the extra pass for a layup. I haven't seen many guys in history play defense on that level.

Offensively, this unsubstantiated notion that he's a choker or can't carry a team is just that: unsubstantiated. His last second shot numbers are below average, as are his last-5 numbers, but nothing really out of the ordinary for a top big man. He has a number of big game-winning shots and big 4th quarters in the playoffs over his career. In the typical of fashion of cognitive bias, people can't process them when they happen and simply move on.

Then there's the bizarre notion that he's not some "winner" or "alpha dog." Besides his reputation as a teammate, teacher and motivator, he's basically played on 3 quality teams in his life: 04, 08, 10. They lost the WCF in 04 with the second best player on that team injured. Won the title in 08 with the best post-Jordan SRS, and lost the title in 10 with Garnett himself still hobbled from surgery.

He's a spectacular post passer. Excellent offensive player. Excellent defensive player -- and as a big, this is a potentially huge difference over someone like Barkley. Yet he played on a team in Minnesota that was stripped of 5 consecutive first round draft picks and dealt devastating injuries to Tom Gugliotta, Terrell Brandon (and even Wally Szczerbiak). I'm not sure people realize how bad those teams were.

Finally, the difference between KG and Duncan --with KG fighting a ridiculous uphill battle playing in arguably the worst situation in the NBA vs. Duncan playing in arguably the best -- was apparently so clear that in 2000, 2004 and 2008 KG finished ahead of TD in MVP, and finished second to him in his peak season in 2003.

All told, KG's 04 is right behind the sacred peaks in NBA history for me, and for those levying charges against longevity, if he makes an all-nba team this year that will be 13 years spanning his first and last selection.

He's not overrated. If anything, he's underrated.

[Sinant]

Got him in the mid to low teens.

[D Nice]

Agree with around 13-15.

Top ten is: Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Dream, Duncan, Kobe, Russell

After that I've got West at 11, Malone (Karl, not Moses) at 12, and Dr. J/Barkley at 13 and 14. 15 and 16 I split between D-Rob and Garnett, with Moses and Oscar shortly after. Dirk and maybe Pettit round out my top 20.

KG definitely doesn't fall below 16 though, that's for sure. He can be argued for as high as 12 honestly (not putting him above West or anyone in the top 10 though).

EDIT: After rethinking it, I'd put Garnett, Dirk, and Probably Lebron all in my top 20. James and Wade have a pretty impressive body of work already.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Dream
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Russell (****storm, right?)
11. West
12. Erving
13. Malone
14. Robinson
15. Barkley
16. Garnett
17. Moses
18. Oscar
19. Nowitski
20. James/Wade

[BballTechnique]

I'm not sure overall but I don't see how people can put him above Dirk. Despite the on paper differences in defense, rebounding etc. Dirk has done more in Dallas (with similar talent levels) than KG ever did in Minnesota. There's no way Dirk would ever be first round fodder for 7 straight seasons.

Dirk has proven to be a superior player to KG.

[NO-KG-AI]

I saw someone say that Garnett had ridiculously efficiency? Uh, no, no he doesn't. He has a career 54.9% TS. In other words, less than Kobe Bryant who so many on this site call a chucker.

But you're not taking into account that he creates more open and easy looks for his teammates than virtually any other big man, and that's why his teams were always finishing way higher offensively than they reasonably should.

The Wolves from 1999-2000 on up finished similarly (sometimes a little higher, and sometimes lower) to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in terms of offensive efficiency every year.

Garnett's TS% isn't high because he doesn't take 3's or draw a crap load of fouls, but he's a mismatch that causes confusion, spreads the floor out for less skilled players, and has the versatility to mesh into any lineup without causing spacing or chemistry issues. 20+ at around 50%/80% is nothing to scoff at, and his assist numbers don't capture how much of a playmaker he is, 5-6 for a big is far more valuable than 5-6 from a guard, and a lot more difficult. The amount of hockey assists a big man gets is a lot greater when the assist numbers are close.

Either way, the Wolves did things like finishing top 5 on offense with Troy Hudson as the second best player, Wally Z playing 50 games, and Rasho being the 4th leading scorer.

Rasho.

[BballTechnique]

But you're not taking into account that he creates more open and easy looks for his teammates than virtually any other big man, and that's why his teams were always finishing way higher offensively than they reasonably should.

The Wolves from 1999-2000 on up finished similarly (sometimes a little higher, and sometimes lower) to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in terms of offensive efficiency every year.

Thank Flip Saunders. When his system left the Wolves offense died. When he went to Detroit they weren't from a very average to below average offensive team to a dominating one. IMO he's the best offensive head coach around with his only peers being Aldelman, D'Antoni, and Sloan.

20+ at around 50%/80% is nothing to scoff at, and his assist numbers don't capture how much of a playmaker he is, 5-6 for a big is far more valuable than 5-6 from a guard, and a lot more difficult. The amount of hockey assists a big man gets is a lot greater when the assist numbers are close.

Flip's offenses aren't hockey-assist offenses. KG's assists came from being a very good passing big man in an offense that uses the big as the hub. No different from Brad Miller, Chris Webber, and Vlade Divac in Sacramento. He wasn't a Shaq-type player that defenses contorted their whole scheme to stop.

[NO-KG-AI]

Except Brad Miller, Chris Webber, and Vlade Divac were never able to produce the volume of assists KG did.

Don't confuse Dwyane Casey and Randy Whittman's ineptitude with Flip being an offensive mastermind, the team did fine offensively(and won a lot more games) after Flip was fired and McHale took over as interim coach.

[BballTechnique]

KG had a high of 6.0 apg and Webber of 5.4 apg. Not statistically significant for this discussion especially considering all the other great passers around Webber at the time.

Other very good passing PF's have put up similar numbers when put in similar roles. Two off the top of my head are Lamar Odom at 5.9 apg (in 34 mins vs KG's 40) and Boris Diaw's 6.2 apg in 35.5 minutes.

KG is a great passing big man but he wasn't creating offense the same way a wing player typically does to get the same number of assists.

All signs point to McHale being a fantastic coach, he just doesn't like coaching. But more to the point, Flip installed the system and McHale ran the same exact thing. Flip is very much a mastermind at the X's and O's.

[NO-KG-AI]

Webber had 1 season over 5. 1.

Neither Boris Diaw or Odom played a "similar role". Boris Diaw played center to small forward, but always played from the wing offensively, never played the low post, and the suns system had a ton more possessions anyway, with him having very little role as a scorer.

Odom averaged 5.9 in a 29 game season, and aside from that, he Odom never cracked 5 assists on any offense of any significance, aside from the 2005-2006 Lakers, where he played a lot of small forward.

If Flip is the mastermind and KG isn't the reason the offense was so good, I have a lot of trouble figuring out why the massive drop offs offensively(and defensively) that account for KG registering the most dominating +/- stats of all time. Funny how Odom, Webber, Divac, Diaw and the rest aren't watching their teams crumble offensively when they step off the court.

[BballTechnique]

Neither Boris Diaw or Odom played a "similar role". Boris Diaw played center to small forward, but always played from the wing offensively, never played the low post, and the suns system had a ton more possessions anyway, with him having very little role as a scorer.

For several years KG played a lot from the perimeter too. 2002 stands out as a year in which the team wanted to turn him into a more Dirk-like player. KG rarely played the low post and once they told him to not shoot threes anymore he was almost exclusively a high post player. That high post position is the same position Diaw ran things from in Phoenix. In fact, some of KG's seasons (like 2002) had him floating around the perimeter more than Diaw ever did in Phoenix.

Odom averaged 5.9 in a 29 game season, and aside from that, he Odom never cracked 5 assists on any offense of any significance, aside from the 2005-2006 Lakers, where he played a lot of small forward.

Odom averaged 5.2 apg in 2001 and 5.5 apg in 2006 as a point guard. So I may have been stretching it a bit to say he was playing a similar role. However, he is a legit PF with better skills at setting up teammates than KG.

Webber had 1 season over 5. 1.

Shaq has zero but he created more offense for teammates than KG could ever dream of. Either way, the point is that your point of KG being such an awesome creator far beyond his 5-6 apg per game is bunk. Other PF's have hit similar assist numbers in the very same fashion KG did: being the big-man hub of an offense. Wilt even led the league in apg doing the same thing.

It's just not that hard for a good passing big man to hit jumpshooters coming off screens. The PF's in Sloan's offense do the very same thing and have been known to hit 4-5 apg too. You're simply overrating KG's passing game.

[BballTechnique]

If Flip is the mastermind and KG isn't the reason the offense was so good, I have a lot of trouble figuring out why the massive drop offs offensively(and defensively) that account for KG registering the most dominating +/- stats of all time. Funny how Odom, Webber, Divac, Diaw and the rest aren't watching their teams crumble offensively when they step off the court.

Really? You are having trouble figuring out why the Lakers, Suns, and Kings don't fall apart when Odom, Diaw, and Divac weren't on the court? That just says more about your elementry level of basketball understanding than anything else.

Did you notice that the Celtics didn't fall apart when KG went down? Why was that?

[NO-KG-AI]

Because KG doesn't account for nearly as much offense in Boston as he did in Minnesota, and they had other guys who scaled back their roles and were easily capable of bigger offensive output.

Boston isn't a contender without KG though, even a broken version of himself, so they did come apart if you want to get technical.

2002 KG did play a lot on the perimeter, but he produced his best season ever when the personnel around him called for more post play(2003-2004).

Shaq doesn't create as many looks for his teammates, which is why Shaq's offensive rating isn't leaps and bounds better than KG, despite being thunderously more dominant as a scorer. Difference in volume, KG made a lot more passes, and kept his turnovers down a lot better. Shaq is a great passer though, just not as good as KG.

[BballTechnique]

Boston isn't a contender without KG though, even a broken version of himself, so they did come apart if you want to get technical.

They took the eastern conference champion Orlando Magic to 7 games, won 62 games, had the 2nd ranked defense, and the 6th rated offense. They contended.

Because KG doesn't account for nearly as much offense in Boston as he did in Minnesota, and they had other guys who scaled back their roles and were easily capable of bigger offensive output.

So now keep going... who accounted for more of their team's offense Boris Diaw and Lamar Odom or KG? Are you still not understanding why their +/- dropoffs weren't similar?

Shaq doesn't create as many looks for his teammates

False. No one but you believes that. Probably not even KG.

[NO-KG-AI]

They had the 2nd ranked defense because they still had KG for almost 60 games, they played out of the top 10 without him. Ditto on offense.

The Eastern Conference champion Magic also got smashed brutally the next season by Boston when KG was back, and weren't all that great. They really didn't "contend", they had no shot at winning a title.

KG +/- dropoff in Boston still dwarfs someone like Diaw or Odom, even when he's not being utilized as much, I dunno where you are going with this.

Shaq might create the cleanest looks for guys of any big, but he's a much more dominant scorer, and the ball is going to come back out a lot less than when Garnett touches it.

[microfib4thewin]

I'm not sure overall but I don't see how people can put him above Dirk. Despite the on paper differences in defense, rebounding etc. Dirk has done more in Dallas (with similar talent levels) than KG ever did in Minnesota. There's no way Dirk would ever be first round fodder for 7 straight seasons.

Dirk has proven to be a superior player to KG.

Dirk has lost in the first round as the #1 and #2 seed. The Mavs got deeper into the playoffs when Dirk had better teammates, and once their confidence shattered in 07 they went back to a 1st-2nd round fodder, which really isn't all that different from KG getting bounced in the 1st round with an arguably worse cast.

Dirk is neither an offensive nor a defensive anchor. With KG you know you have the defensive part covered no matter what guys you put in, and to me that is the big difference between them.

[BballTechnique]

They had the 2nd ranked defense because they still had KG for almost 60 games, they played out of the top 10 without him. Ditto on offense.

They had the 2nd ranked defense because Tom Thibodeau is a genius.

The Eastern Conference champion Magic also got smashed brutally the next season by Boston when KG was back, and weren't all that great. They really didn't "contend", they had no shot at winning a title.

What does the next season have to do with anything? Boston wasn't smashing teams with KG in 2008 or 2010. Different seasons are different. Boston very much did contend in 2009.

KG +/- dropoff in Boston still dwarfs someone like Diaw or Odom, even when he's not being utilized as much, I dunno where you are going with this.

According to basketballvalue.com Odom has been pretty competitive with KG in adjusted +/- for the last few years. A couple years ago Odom put up a +16.64, higher than KG's ever had with Boston.

But you're right, this is off topic. You basically tried to claim that KG was creating a ton of offense for his teammates in the Flip years and 'm telling you he didn't. He passed the ball to shooters coming of creative cuts and screens. No different than Vlade, Brad Miller, Karl Malone, or or Andrei Kirilenko. To say he was creating offense like a typical wing player is just wrong. He wasn't.

[BballTechnique]

I'm not sure overall but I don't see how people can put him above Dirk. Despite the on paper differences in defense, rebounding etc. Dirk has done more in Dallas (with similar talent levels) than KG ever did in Minnesota. There's no way Dirk would ever be first round fodder for 7 straight seasons.

Dirk has proven to be a superior player to KG.

Dirk has lost in the first round as the #1 and #2 seed. The Mavs got deeper into the playoffs when Dirk had better teammates, and once their confidence shattered in 07 they went back to a 1st-2nd round fodder, which really isn't all that different from KG getting bounced in the 1st round with an arguably worse cast.

Dirk is neither an offensive nor a defensive anchor. With KG you know you have the defensive part covered no matter what guys you put in, and to me that is the big difference between them.

The Wolves would have thrown a parade had they been considered second round fodder before 2004.

Anytime Dirk has had similar talent to a KG team, the Dirk team has done the same or better.

[prs]

How is Dirk not an offensive anchor?