RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - The Greatest Player of All-Time

[Baller 24]

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days

Cast a vote, and nominate a player

Michael Jordan

# 6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
# 5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003)
# 6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
# 2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


Wilt Chamberlain

* 2x NBA champion (1967, 1972)
* 4x NBA MVP (1960, 1966-1968)
* 13x NBA All-Star (1960-1969, 1971-1973)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1972)
* 7x All-NBA First Team Selection (1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1963, 1965, 1972)
* 2x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1972-1973)
* 1960 NBA Rookie of the Year
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

# 6x NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988
# 6x NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)
# 19x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)
# 5x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)
# 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)
# 1970 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1970 NBA All-Rookie Team
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Bill Russell

* 11x NBA Champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969)
* 5x NBA MVP (1958, 1961-1963, 1965)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1958-1969)
* 3x All-NBA First Team Selection (1959, 1963, 1965)
* 8x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1958, 1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1969)
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team
* NBA 25th Anniversary Team

Magic Johnson


* 5× NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
* 3× NBA MVP (1987, 1989–1990)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1983–1991)
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1982)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
* 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Shaquille O'Neal

*4-time NBA Champion
*2000 NBA MVP
*92-'93 NBA Rookie of the Year
*3-time NBA Finals MVP
*3-time All-Star MVP
*14-time All-Star
*7 time All NBA First Team
*2 time All NBA Second Team
*3 time All NBA Third Team
*3 time All NBA Second Defensive Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
Hakeem Olajuwon

* 2x NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
* 1x NBA MVP (1994)
* 12x All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
* 2x Finals MVP (1994-1995)
* 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
* 6x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
* 3x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
* 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
* 4x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)
* 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Kobe Bryant

5× NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2009–2010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
2× NBA scoring champion (2006–2007)
9× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000–2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)
2× All-Defensive Second Team (2001–2002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)

[SDChargers#1]

I am just glad Kobe made the initial nomination. I don't expect him to get voted in any time soon (and he shouldn't be), but the fact that he got voted in means his respect has definitely gained in recent years.

Anyway, my vote for Greatest Player of All Time is none other than....

MICHAEL JORDAN

Jordan is the Greatest Player of All Time because he has zero weaknesses on his resume. He doesn't have the most titles, but he has 6. He isn't the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but he is definitely in the top 5. He was the best scorer of all time (points per game) in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. He has a DPoY, 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs as well as all sorts of other accolades. And he won as the unquestioned leader of every single one of his title teams.

As for the nomination, is that supposed to be the next player to make the list??

If so I nominate Oscar Robertson.

[Fencer reregistered]

The three serious candidates for me are Russell, Kareem, and Jordan. All had long periods of dominance, deservedly leading to lots of MVP awards and lots of rings.

Russell transformed the game in a good way.
Jordan transformed the game in a bad way. (I prefer a more fluid game to isolate-the-great-one, and I don't like that his game depending on abolishing the traveling rule.)
Kareem didn't transform the game much one way or the other.

Russell and Jordan had, by all accounts, great intangibles. Kareem didn't, but had even fewer negative intangibles.

Kareem had the most remarkable longevity of the three.

I'll vote for Bill Russell, and telegraph my next two votes as being for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Jordan.

I'm sorry that those font colors aren't exactly right. Not a lot of nuanced choice in that regard.

I'll suggest Jerry West as next on the list. The Logo was, quite literally, an iconic player.

[JordansBulls]

The top 3 are Jordan, Kareem and Rusell because all were great but I choose Michael Jordan and here a few reasons why.

-Most scoring titles—10
-Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
-Highest career scoring average—30.12
-Highest career scoring average playoffs— 33.45
-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57
-Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
-Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)
-Highest PER Season- 27.91 and Playoffs 28.59
-Highest WS/PER 48 in Season .2505 and Playoffs - .2553
-Highest Total Playoff Win Shares Despite playing nearly 50 games less than the next player at 39.76
-Never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan (no one else has more than 4)

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan (no one else has even half that all time)

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

Most Playoff Points
5987 by Michael Jordan


No one else essentially has the combination of winning, stats, accolades, and efficiency to take that crown.

"Never getting outplayed in by an opponent over the course of a playoff series"otherwise known as

"Came out of every playoff series looking like the best player on the court"

Forget numbers and figures, that record is what makes him GOAT.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/almanac_playoff_scoring_leaders/


MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record and is the only player to win multiple titles while leading the league in scoring.

Vote: Michael Jordan
Nominate: Julius Erving

[Dr Positivity]

Wrote this yesterday in Word, didn't want to wait

With all due respect to Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, they aren't in the conversation for GOAT for me. Each have their issues compared to Russ/Jordan/Kareem. I won't waste time elaborating. So picking between the top 3 for me:

Kareem: The biggest reason I would pick him – In an “All Time Draft”, many of which have been on RealGM, Kareem is usually the smart choice to take #1. He gives you elite offense and defense at the most important position (C) and he plays at an elite level forever. This is a very important aspect to me. If Kareem is the guy you take as a GM starting a team over anyone else, does that mean he has the most valuable career? He’s also one of the few players that would be the best player in the league in literally every era. 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s. He doesn’t lose an inch of impact at any time while Jordan would have more trouble in the 60s (since West and Oscar couldn't win) and Russell in the 90s dominating. Kareem is era proof.

What are Kareem’s weaknesses? He doesn’t have the same “win or die” mentality and teammate impact Russ and Jordan have. That’s big to me. He isn’t as insanely timely, he got beat up by Nate Thurmond and Moses Malone a couple times. To his credit, when he had the teams in the early 70s and early 80s, he won... but he wasn't unbeatable. And that's probably the clincher. I can't put him over Jordan and Russell when those guys went into run the table mode. If you showed them Kareem #1 over them, they'd say "What more should I have done? Put up nicer stats but lose?" Yes, we shouldn't just judge players on titles. But when it comes to determining the greatest player of all time, I have to hand it to the two most unbeatable winners the league has seen.

Jordan vs Russell: This is tricky. Russell would be more valuable than Jordan in the 60s, Jordan more valuable than Russell in the 90s. Russell has more titles but was drafted onto a team with an MVP and great teammates, while due to an expanded league Jordan had to wait. When he did catch up to the help Russell had all career, he didn’t lose (95 aside). I can't put much stock into Russell getting more titles, when he clearly got the early boost because of better teammates at the time, and weaker competition to boot in the late 50s early 60s. What matters is that on an equal playing field talent wise, both were virtually unbeatable.

Both guys are crazy in the competitive department and have an intensity that permeates the whole team. Slight edge to Russell in that department because his teammates loved him, while Jordan was kind of an ****. Which worked well under this circumstance, but may have not held up with every group of players.

My biggest argument in favor of Russell: Jordan when he came into the league, could be a player deemed not ready to be a winner. Ball dominant, didn’t know how to make teammates better yet, arguably, a 1 man team. Russell was ready to win and sacrifice whatever was need, out of the box. So you have more years of Russell being exactly what you want.

My biggest argument for Jordan: Russell’s impact for his era is in my opinion, GOAT. In an 8 team league everyone had offensive talent and nobody had stoppers. Marginal utility of a defensive C was much higher than now. Also, the guy was the biggest defensive genius and strategist ever and did it in an era where the rest of the league was very dumb offensively. That’s an effective mix. But with this in mind, do we give credit to Russell for being that good and ahead of his time upstairs, or say it was the rest of the league at fault? I think you could make a serious case for the latter, which would be a huge boon to Jordan’s case. It may have not been easier to win in the 60s, but it may have been easier to fill a giant void (defense, opponents lack of strategic IQ) and dominate the league that way.

It’s close, but my vote is for Michael Jordan. When given the same help as Russell, he choked the league, with the clincher being that I am confident his impact on his era was all his greatness, while Russell’s was to a degree helped by weakness in the rest of the league’s defensive talent and strategies. All other things considered, I have to give the guy who did it in league a more advanced, deeper, and more than anything else, superior in strategic intelligence, the benefit of the doubt

Nominate: Jerry West

[ElGee]

So we aren't discussing this? We are just voting?

[GilmoreFan]

I vote Jordan, for reasons others will doubtless explain. Realgm is operating at a snail's pace atm, I assume due to some sort of bandwidth or malware problem caused from the increased draft traffic, so I hope I'll be excused a lengthy explanation here, for what is a fairly uncontroversial choice. Jordan is the best player of all time.

I nominate Dr J, who I have at 10 on my list, and who is the only one of my 10 not already nominated. I include his ABA years in my analysis if anyone is wondering.

I'd also note that it was pretty borderline Kobe got nominated to the initial 10. I think I counted 6 votes for him, as opposed to 4 for Erving, K.Malone, etc. He was also well behind the consensus 9, who had 17 votes each, excepting Wilt with 16 and Hakeem with 15 (I may have skipped people whose voting was vague like Penbeast). I think starting with 9 would have been more consistent with the actual consensus.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'd also note that it was pretty borderline Kobe got nominated to the initial 10. I think I counted 6 votes for him, as opposed to 4 for Erving, K.Malone, etc. He was also well behind the consensus 9, who had 17 votes each, excepting Wilt with 16 and Hakeem with 15 (I may have skipped people whose voting was vague like Penbeast). I think starting with 9 would have been more consistent with the actual consensus.

Indeed. And at least my nomination of Kobe was half-hearted, exactly because he in my book is well below that top guys.

If Kobe comes out higher than 10th, it will illustrate flaws in the voting process (e.g., the weakness of plurality voting as opposed to instant run-off). But so be it.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'll hold out my vote until tommorrow, mainly because like Elgee, I'm hoping that we can get some discussion going on these choices.

To me, the GOAT title comes down to MJ & KAJ. Everyone else simply doesn't have the overall resume that these 2 players do as of today. I'm also interested in why so many put Russell into consideration, yet not Wilt, who bested Russell on the All-NBA 1st team, 7 to 3. He was also more statistically dominant, and had almost the same number of MVP shares. Russell definitely had the advantage in titles, but how much should that weigh into the discussions? I guess this goes back to the criteria question. As a player, Russell was a better defender, but it's not like Wilt wasn't a good defender, rebounder, and scorer.

Another problem with Russell, is that I question how much his dominance was due to era versus other Top 10 nominees. I feel Wilt would have been a Top player across any era, but with Russell, I see a bit of Mikan in that I wonder how effective he would be if he played in the 90's(even with modern training, etc.)

As for MJ & KAJ...I'm heavily leaning towards MJ, and while I think KAJ is the only other guy who can challenge MJ for #1.....I also feel he may not even be Top 3 depending on how you look at things. The main cog for Showtime was Magic(who can arguable be put ahead of KAJ). And while KAJ was clearly the best player of the 70's, one must also point out that there were 2 leagues, and somewhat diluted talent. As a bigman, I also don't think KAJ wasn't a great defensive anchor. This somewhat skews me away from him too.

MJ's one major chink, is that he played in a weak era(IMO), that was in transition with it's star players, and going through expansion. Even still, I haven't heard any reason why he's not a pretty easy pick for #1 yet.

Lastly, I should also ask how others view Mikan. Based on his career, and era dominance, I'm having a hard time figruing out where he falls in this whole thing. The Top players of every era are represented, except him.

Top 2 of every decade:
50's: Mikan/Petitt
60's: Wilt/Russell
70's: KAJ/Dr. J
80's: Magic/Bird
90's: MJ/Malone
00's: Kobe/Duncan

I hope the older guys aren't castoff into the lower ranks of the 30's and 40's.

[GilmoreFan]

You can still give your nomination vote though... just pick the person who would be next on your list.

[Fencer reregistered]

Russell had HIGHLY positive intangibles, according to his teammates.
Wilt had negative intangibles, much of the time.

So the rings are not irrelevant in deciding between them.

And when a guy bounces around from team to team as much as Wilt or Shaq, some of that is on him, and hence he doesn't get that much allowance for lack of team stability.

[Fencer reregistered]

You can still give your nomination vote though... just pick the person who would be next on your list.

I bet his nominee is Mikan.

[Fencer reregistered]

The three serious candidates for me are Russell, Kareem, and Jordan. All had long periods of dominance, deservedly leading to lots of MVP awards and lots of rings.

Upon review, I'll stand by that, but Magic and Bird are closer than I thought.

... telegraph my next two votes as being for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Jordan.

Not so sure I'll stand by that part. Let's see how the discussion goes.

[drza]

The difference that I see between Russell and Mikan is that I can envision Russell's skills translating to any era, while Mikan's IMO wouldn't. Note, I'm not saying that Russell's career or stats would look exactly the same today as it did in the 50s and 60s, the game is obviously different, but I think his combination of size, athletic ability, skill-set and "intangibles' would translate.

For example, I don't think Russell would average anywhere near double-digit blocked shots in today's NBA. BUT, there have been man players with his rough body type to lead the league in blocked shots in the last 25 years (Hakeem, Ratliff, Mourning, Wallace, even Howard). With current training methods, I think Russell would still be able to lead the league in blocks whatever era he was in.

Simultaneously, Russell also had the quickness, speed and explosiveness to be an Olympic caliber athlete in track-n-field. As such, I believe that he would be a major defensive horizontal presence in today's NBA as well, perhaps the most valuable defensive asset there is at present.

Finally, while he might not average 20+ rebounds per game these days, I definitely could see Russell leading the NBA in rebounding with modern examples like Rodman, Wallace and Love demonstrating it can be done. Put those three things together with his natural instincts and defensive acumen, and I could very easily believe that he'd be the best, most impactful defensive player regardless of the era that he played in.

Similarly, people often consider how Russell's era may have helped his defensive numbers. They don't often discuss how it likely hurt his offensive numbers. People see that he often shot in the low-mid 40%s from the floor, without taking into consideration that this put him among the league leaders in FG%. People note that he was a good passer for a big man, without noticing that he wasn't just good...he was among the top-10 in the NBA in assists. With the way that offenses have evolved, and noting how Russell's physical gifts in conjunction with his abilities would likely translate, and I could easily see Russell developing into at least a Bill Walton-type, perhaps even a Webber/Garnett type offensive threat in the modern game.

I can't say any of the above for Mikan. Both Mikan and Russell dominated their eras. But that's where it ends for Mikan, whereas I think Russell would have been right at the top of whatever era he happened to play in.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Russell had HIGHLY positive intangibles, according to his teammates.
Wilt had negative intangibles, much of the time.

So the rings are not irrelevant in deciding between them.

And when a guy bounces around from team to team as much as Wilt or Shaq, some of that is on him, and hence he doesn't get that much allowance for lack of team stability.

Russell did have postive intangibles, but I need more clarification as to what these are. Because to me, the Celtics domianted the 60's due to superior talent & coaching. I just can't wrap my head around Wilt getting 7 All-NBA 1st teams, and Russell only getting 3. That's pretty striking.

Even more, it's hard for me to rate a one-dimensional player this high. Magic, Bird, and Shaq all take a hit for their defense, so why shouldn't Russell get kncoked some for his offense. Would people really pick Russell over most of the Top 10 in a post-merger league?

You can still give your nomination vote though... just pick the person who would be next on your list.

I'd rather keep it with my vote, to make Baller24's job easier.

[Snakebites]

I need to go with Michael Jordan here.

The only player I really have a hard time saying anything negative about in any aspect of his game. The closest one can come is outside shooting, but he's got more range than any of the other serious contenders too!

Winner, amazing individual performer, and could will a team to win on his own. In his long peak, excluding the brief comeback in 1995, he literally got a win EVERY TIME he needed one.

I could go on, but I don't think I need to.

Nominate: Moses Malone

I've always found this 3 time MVP to be extremely underrated in that he never gets much top 10 consideration and is generally behind a couple of guys outside the top 10. Prolific and efficient scorer, understated defender, and one of the greatest rebounders in the history of the league. A bit of an underachiever in terms of rings, but I'm inclined to forgive this given the era he played in.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The difference that I see between Russell and Mikan is that I can envision Russell's skills translating to any era, while Mikan's IMO wouldn't. Note, I'm not saying that Russell's career or stats would look exactly the same today as it did in the 50s and 60s, the game is obviously different, but I think his combination of size, athletic ability, skill-set and "intangibles' would translate.

For example, I don't think Russell would average anywhere near double-digit blocked shots in today's NBA. BUT, there have been man players with his rough body type to lead the league in blocked shots in the last 25 years (Hakeem, Ratliff, Mourning, Wallace, even Howard). With current training methods, I think Russell would still be able to lead the league in blocks whatever era he was in.

Simultaneously, Russell also had the quickness, speed and explosiveness to be an Olympic caliber athlete in track-n-field. As such, I believe that he would be a major defensive horizontal presence in today's NBA as well, perhaps the most valuable defensive asset there is at present.

Finally, while he might not average 20+ rebounds per game these days, I definitely could see Russell leading the NBA in rebounding with modern examples like Rodman, Wallace and Love demonstrating it can be done. Put those three things together with his natural instincts and defensive acumen, and I could very easily believe that he'd be the best, most impactful defensive player regardless of the era that he played in.

Similarly, people often consider how Russell's era may have helped his defensive numbers. They don't often discuss how it likely hurt his offensive numbers. People see that he often shot in the low-mid 40%s from the floor, without taking into consideration that this put him among the league leaders in FG%. People note that he was a good passer for a big man, without noticing that he wasn't just good...he was among the top-10 in the NBA in assists. With the way that offenses have evolved, and noting how Russell's physical gifts in conjunction with his abilities would likely translate, and I could easily see Russell developing into at least a Bill Walton-type, perhaps even a Webber/Garnett type offensive threat in the modern game.

I can't say any of the above for Mikan. Both Mikan and Russell dominated their eras. But that's where it ends for Mikan, whereas I think Russell would have been right at the top of whatever era he happened to play in.

You make some interesting points. I do feel Russell could play today on a physical level, but I'm not sure his style would be nearly as impactful outside of the pre-merger era.

1) Offensive systems have evolved over the years, and as a result, individual defense doesn't impact the game like it used back in the 60's. The lane was actually only 12 feet until 65', and there was no defensive 3 seconds until 67'. Both Wilt and Russ were clearly on another level physically as compared to their peers at center. I'm not so sure they would enjoy such a dramatic advantage in later years. Wings weren't really attacking the rim like they did post-merger either.

2) Russell's FG% isn't that bad as compared to his peers, however, I feel that bigmen didn't really excel in the post offensively until Wilt showed how. It's hard to dismiss his FG% when Wilt is significantly better during the same era, and forcing the league to widen the lane.

3) I do see Russ ahead of Mikan, but it seems like George gets zero benefit of the doubt, while Russell gets all the benefit.

[GilmoreFan]

I'd rather keep it with my vote, to make Baller24's job easier.

... Baller24 has to read every post anyhow... how about you tell us now, and you can also put it in the same post as your vote... what possible harm could there be from doing that?

[ronnymac2]

3) I do see Russ ahead of Mikan, but it seems like George gets zero benefit of the doubt, while Russell gets all the benefit.

That's because Russell and Mikan didn't play in similar eras, despite the actual times being so close. Mikan excelled in the pre-shot clock era, where the differences are enormous compared to the shot clock era. The league also wasn't really integrated during Mikan's time.

Russell, even in decline in 1968 and 1969, produced numbers and impact as the game approached the modern age and teams became more integrated racially. He was still a dominant player. Mikan never really proved that. Admittedly, the footage of Mikan's era is almost non-existent.

I get your point regarding era domination though. Mikan was essentially Wilt and Russell put together in his own era.

[GilmoreFan]

Mikan will be nowhere in my top 100, for reasons that are obvious. The guy would be a borderline NBA player today most likely. His ceiling is Brad Miller, while his floor is a car salesman in Eastern Europe, where his imposing size makes him a curiousity and good luck charm for bovine peasants.